Worst Things You Can Ever Say As A Pagan

[aoijea23487]

Brass Bell Doll

I feel that death sport is unethical as well, but I also feel that when we begin to apply an ethical standard to environmental life cycles, we then separate ourselves from animals, conversely, when we excuse some animals which engage in similar activities, we deny a part of their nature.

I'm not sure what you mean here. I see ethical thought as a purely human thing, and as such one cannot make moral judgments about other animals or their habits. A bear must eat meat in order to survive. I don't. I have the power to exercise rational thought in terms of ethics, and I will use it. I am not denying a bear's nature by refusing to eat meat, though both of us are omnivores. I am merely using my own capabilities.

Either way, it's hard for me to argue from veganism from a purely harm-centered morality, as I am also vegan for political reasons.

Quote:

I do not feel that the environment we choose to live in alters our nature, but instead we create an interrelation and shape our environment and ourselves. As such, while many people may utilize conveniences that create a "Animals=food" mind-frame, that doesn't reflect on people who do not hold that relation.

I am not sure what you are trying to say here. I see biological nature and "human nature" as two different things. Biologically, I am an omnivore, but I do not see myself as an animal-on-animal predator. I think environment changes that, as well as predation being a characteristic specific to individuals (though it can certainly be most individuals).

When I smell a chicken roasting, do I pull out a vegan-zealot phrase like "Ew, smell that freshly slaughtered tortured animal carcass being heated?" No. It smells good to me. Yet, I refuse to be a part of the system that brought that chicken to the oven, and as such I will not eat it. I refuse to reduce animals to mere commodity. What I mean is that I see "predation" as something occurring in a natural, uncivilized environment, and most humans do not fall into that category. When I see a human running through the wilderness with a sharp stick in hand chasing a wild boar for food, I'll call that predation.

But forcing GMO pigs to live in a very small metal cage in their own feces, eventually making them go insane from the confinement, prodding them with electric rods down a narrow hallway to be hung by their back legs to get their throats slit, dying slowly and painfully as the "farmer" collects its pooling blood in a bucket? Is that predation? ******** not. That's exploitation, slavery, rape, murder, and downright cruelty at its worst.

There are people whose stomachs turn at the idea of killing animals, period. I would not say that predation is in their nature. Are their bodies capable of eating other animals? Most likely. But predation is not something that comes naturally to them. I generally fall into this category.  

[Ishtar Shakti]

Quote:

I feel that would end in one thing: people who can afford to pay the taxes will end up being parents as a status symbol- regardless of if they will be good parents or not.

As a result, people who will make good parents, but cannot afford to have children will become criminals, or worse- will have their body intruded upon by government agencies who wish to control the population. Or maybe the government will do what the Chinese did and start killing babies.

It would also make it so people who may be good parents but do not have the income to feed there children will stop having children. We give people a tax break and additional money because they have children.
We reward people... and they don't even take proper care of their children.

I don't think anyone should have children until they are financially responsible enough to actually take care of them and have leisure time to invest in children. I don't think having children for religious purposes or because you refuse to use protection or for any number of reasons justifies you as a good parent.

I Feel BAD for children. Because parents who aren't ready who might be extremely loving cannot provide for them. All the love in the world won't give your child a sandwhich when they go to school and school provided lunches don't provide for when the child goes home.

The state ends up taking care of children. The state ends up allowing parents to be irresponsible. I would rather have people have Some sort of incentive for them not to have kids before they have kids then underestimate the level of effort it takes and the repercussions of their actions and just expect the state to be able to care for the kids if they can't.

I am for Taxing, or for providing people with an easy and consistent means to not have children for free. Pretty much give people free birth control and make it free and easily accessible at any pharmacy or store without a prescription. Birth control is expensive and I've known alot of people who got pregnant because they didn't have money to afford it and then who decided to keep the child and carry it to term even though they had no financial stability and no way to actually take care of the child and they Weren't good parents and it fell on everyone else they knew to actually take care of the child. I've known children who were raped who were drinking since they were 6 who lived off of hand outs from their friends for lunch every day. Who hid from child protective services because they loved their drunkard of a father who couldn't take care of them.

Things happen... but parent hood is a heavy burden and bringing a child into a life of misery and unhappiness doesn't HELP the child.

I don't think it would become a status symbol because Rich people or well of people may opt out of children to save their own money amass wealth etc. Also I think that the money raised through taxs should go directly into ensuring the childs well being. Raising taxs to help children and fund the programs which are suffering that people take for granted.  

[maenad nuri]

Ishtar, I'm saying this publicly. You need to edit your post for the bigoted, privileged a**-backwards statements you've made, or you will be banned from the community as we have discussed before.

I'd prefer an apology as well, but only one that is heartfelt.  

[Calelith]

maenad nuri

Ishtar, I'm saying this publicly. You need to edit your post for the bigoted, privileged a**-backwards statements you've made, or you will be banned from the community as we have discussed before.

I'd prefer an apology as well, but only one that is heartfelt.

Lavdem virtvtis

I would have said that myself, but I...felt I might have over stepped my bounds of I did.

necessitati damvs

 

[Ishtar Shakti]

Quote:

Ishtar Shakti, I feel those words are incredibly hurtful. The idea that being fat makes you a drain on society? That people who are fat are less valuable than people who are not? I feel that if waste is the issue, then highlight it as such- but to rely on the way a person looks to determine value feeds into a cultural contempt for those who do not already meet the societal standards for beauty.

It is a mental state... I have issues with people who are Obese with people who do drugs with people who waste electricity with people who don't walk over to the TV to change the channels. Even watching TV seems to be a waste but at the same time books are expensive and we need to provide alternate sources of entertainment. I have a problem with Lazy people with people who consume too much and with people who sit around all day and rely on Food stamps to supply their habits.

What I said was an Example. Its a mental state that I dislike and lack of exercise and lack of effort and over eating and wasteful actions do affect peoples Appearence.

The only people who are exempt would be persons who are obese because of certain specific medical conditions such as this one girl who retained water. It was actually quite sad. Also some forms of diabetes which are inherited vs. caused by a lack of proper diet. Inability to properly process food... and medical conditions are pretty much exempt from my hatred as these aren't institutionalized by society

Though there is a whole bunch of factors involved such as the price of healthy foods and access to proper nutrition through out childhood, parental irresponsisbility as to provide proper nutrition and guidance to children and fostering unhealthy beliefs and attitudes as to health maintenance and exercise.  

[Calelith]

Celeblin Galadeneryn

Seriously, are you trying to come off like a ********, because you're doing a ******** good job.

Lavdem virtvtis

If I say yes for her, do I win something?
ninja

necessitati damvs

 

[Ishtar Shakti]

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_obe-health-obesity
http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/trends.html
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/childhood-obesity-statistics-facts.html
http://www.aacap.org/cs/root/facts_for_families/obesity_in_children_and_teens
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE50863H20090109  

[Brass Bell Doll]

Ishtar Shakti

It would also make it so people who may be good parents but do not have the income to feed there children will stop having children. We give people a tax break and additional money because they have children.
We reward people... and they don't even take proper care of their children.

I feel that your solution does not support proper care of children, as care of a child is more than meeting their most basic needs.

I also feel that because of how our government controls the resources that make up our basic needs, that income, a series of numbers on a paycheck, is not the measure by which we can qualify a good parent over a bad one.

Ishtar Shakti

I don't think anyone should have children until they are financially responsible enough to actually take care of them and have leisure time to invest in children. I don't think having children for religious purposes or because you refuse to use protection or for any number of reasons justifies you as a good parent.

I feel that to deny the joy of parenthood to people because they do not make what we would consider enough money harms more than it benefits. When we speak of being financially responsible, what are we really saying? Are we going to exclude the family who has suffered bankruptcy because the main income earner was killed by a drunk driver? Do we deny a couple who have to pay expensive medical bills for a mother's father who has been struck with cancer? Do we deny a woman who was raped the right to not punish an innocent life for what someone did to her?

Do you feel it is good to exclude a couple that both work in order to provide those basic needs, thus meeting the fiscal burden while falling short of the time to spend with the children?

What amount of money is enough? Is it a certain percent above the poverty line the standard? How would you feel about those who are able to provide for their children, by using gardens, building houses that while safe, do not meet the standard building codes?

Ishtar Shakti

I Feel BAD for children. Because parents who aren't ready who might be extremely loving cannot provide for them. All the love in the world won't give your child a sandwhich when they go to school and school provided lunches don't provide for when the child goes home.

Food banks, gardens, soup kitchens and other aid can make up for the shortfall when it comes to income.

Ishtar Shakti

The state ends up taking care of children. The state ends up allowing parents to be irresponsible. I would rather have people have Some sort of incentive for them not to have kids before they have kids then underestimate the level of effort it takes and the repercussions of their actions and just expect the state to be able to care for the kids if they can't.

One of the important criticisms that has been made against these kinds of incentive programs has been that it functions as a eugenics program against the poor. It's a way to kill off whole families of what are considered by those with power to be undesirables. In this case, what would make them undesirable by the standards presented would be their income.

Ishtar Shakti

I am for Taxing, or for providing people with an easy and consistent means to not have children for free. Pretty much give people free birth control and make it free and easily accessible at any pharmacy or store without a prescription. Birth control is expensive and I've known alot of people who got pregnant because they didn't have money to afford it and then who decided to keep the child and carry it to term even though they had no financial stability and no way to actually take care of the child and they Weren't good parents and it fell on everyone else they knew to actually take care of the child. I've known children who were raped who were drinking since they were 6 who lived off of hand outs from their friends for lunch every day. Who hid from child protective services because they loved their drunkard of a father who couldn't take care of them.

I feel that rape is a horrible thing for anyone to suffer, but being poor did not cause the rape, the rapist did. I also feel that the issue regarding drug or alcohol abuse by a parent will not be solved by ensuring that the family can pay the tax. I feel that people who abuse substances can be found across the whole spectrum of income.

Ishtar Shakti

Things happen... but parent hood is a heavy burden and bringing a child into a life of misery and unhappiness doesn't HELP the child.

I feel you are right on this- but I also feel the solution doesn't center on income.

Ishtar Shakti

I don't think it would become a status symbol because Rich people or well of people may opt out of children to save their own money amass wealth etc.

I feel that children are already being used as a status symbol.

This article is a good commentary on it.
Slate

Ishtar Shakti

Also I think that the money raised through taxs should go directly into ensuring the childs well being. Raising taxs to help children and fund the programs which are suffering that people take for granted.

I have found in my area that it is easier to pass a prison levy than a school levy, and in states that require a vote for what money will be paid to where, the tax garnered by prospective parents will likely face the same ends.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

Illiezeulette

I'm not sure what you mean here. I see ethical thought as a purely human thing, and as such one cannot make moral judgments about other animals or their habits. A bear must eat meat in order to survive. I don't. I have the power to exercise rational thought in terms of ethics, and I will use it. I am not denying a bear's nature by refusing to eat meat, though both of us are omnivores. I am merely using my own capabilities.

Either way, it's hard for me to argue from veganism from a purely harm-centered morality, as I am also vegan for political reasons.

I am not speaking of bears. The Lucifer Principle outlined the behavior of primates where an abundance of resources still produced unnecessarily violent behavior, documentation about squids and chickens and how they will torture prey or even each other through violence and the information on dolphins regarding their patterns of violent sexual conduct- all of which is stipulated as going above and beyond the aggression over resources.

Illiezeulette

I am not sure what you are trying to say here. I see biological nature and "human nature" as two different things. Biologically, I am an omnivore, but I do not see myself as an animal-on-animal predator. I think environment changes that, as well as predation being a characteristic specific to individuals (though it can certainly be most individuals).

I do not remove human nature from biological nature, but instead see it as an interrelated pattern.

Illiezeulette

When I smell a chicken roasting, do I pull out a vegan-zealot phrase like "Ew, smell that freshly slaughtered tortured animal carcass being heated?" No. It smells good to me. Yet, I refuse to be a part of the system that brought that chicken to the oven, and as such I will not eat it. I refuse to reduce animals to mere commodity. What I mean is that I see "predation" as something occurring in a natural, uncivilized environment, and most humans do not fall into that category. When I see a human running through the wilderness with a sharp stick in hand chasing a wild boar for food, I'll call that predation.

If it is of interest, boars are highly aggressive animals and are more likely to turn on a human and even run the length of the spear.

Illiezeulette

But forcing GMO pigs to live in a very small metal cage in their own feces, eventually making them go insane from the confinement, prodding them with electric rods down a narrow hallway to be hung by their back legs to get their throats slit, dying slowly and painfully as the "farmer" collects its pooling blood in a bucket? Is that predation? ******** not. That's exploitation, slavery, rape, murder, and downright cruelty at its worst.

I agree with this.

Is there a middle ground where the animals are treated in a humane way, but as part of the food chain, they are still consumed?  

[Ishtar Shakti]

* poor eating habits
* overeating or binging
* lack of exercise (i.e., couch potato kids)
* family history of obesity
* medical illnesses (endocrine, neurological problems)
* medications (steroids, some psychiatric medications)
* stressful life events or changes (separations, divorce, moves, deaths, abuse)
* family and peer problems
* low self-esteem
* depression or other emotional problems
The underlined issues are what I see needs to be changed
They need to be dealt with. Obesity is caused by a number of problems. Mental illness should be addressed and the child should be seen by a counselor or someone to help the child learn better coping strategies.
I don't like the way parents teach their children to Deal with issues. I also have a feeling the issue is not being addressed. I don't like the Mentality people have. I don't like when people use remote controls to solve all their problems. I don't like people not being Proactive and I don't care if you think I'm an a** hole for my opinions I don't want children growing up thinking that they don't have to take care of themselves and with no clue how to do so properly.

The sheer level of censor ship that exists here is astounding.

I finally found your threat to ban me while writing this. What is soo Wrong with my opinions that you consider them bigoted and a** back ward or whatever. The horrible things I've seen and I can't comment on them. Thats fine. It doesn't change what I've seen and what has happened. It doesn't change watching getting someones foot get cut off because they developed diabetes and yet they still refused to manage their weight eating a silk pie a die for criminies sake. Watching them kill themselves slowly with food... You can pretend it doesn't happen but it does and I've seen it and I have a PROBLEM WITH IT

Watching a person... loose their feet and die slowly painfully watching the pain it caused their family as they supported him through his illness and his complete inability to change or desire to because He likes his half a pound of sugar in his tea and watching his son fall to the same fate Victim of FOOD and lack of education and Apathy.

You want to call it a** backwards well it is a** backwards and it DOES HAPPEN

Watching people starve in school systems unable to go to anyone for help. YOU WANT TO EDIT THAT FINE

YOU WATCH KIDS BEING NEGLECTED IN FRONT OF YOU AND NOT DEVELOPE A MOTHER ******** PROBLEM

EDIT ME your self and pretend it doesn't happen and I have no reasons for anything I am saying  

[Ishtar Shakti]

Its completely rediculous in comparison the things I hear people complain about on a daily basis. Suffering torture starvation these are REAL issues. The lives of animals... the horribel messed up things we do to our environment and just pretend they don't happen. People killing themselves with poor health problems assured that it isn't a big deal and not even considering other peoples feelings in the process. You want to argue about politically correct well fix those issues with your political correctness.  

[Calelith]

Ishtar Shakti

Watching people starve in school systems unable to go to anyone for help.

Lavdem virtvtis

How in the ******** sake can a child starve in the school systems? They can get ******** free food.

necessitati damvs

 

[Brass Bell Doll]

Ishtar Shakti

It is a mental state... I have issues with people who are Obese with people who do drugs with people who waste electricity with people who don't walk over to the TV to change the channels. Even watching TV seems to be a waste but at the same time books are expensive and we need to provide alternate sources of entertainment. I have a problem with Lazy people with people who consume too much and with people who sit around all day and rely on Food stamps to supply their habits.

What I said was an Example. Its a mental state that I dislike and lack of exercise and lack of effort and over eating and wasteful actions do affect peoples Appearence.

I feel it is not just a state of mind, but a state of the human condition, a complex interrelation between economics, politics, resources and the ability to interact with a system that is designed to place them at a disadvantage.

Ishtar Shakti

The only people who are exempt would be persons who are obese because of certain specific medical conditions such as this one girl who retained water. It was actually quite sad. Also some forms of diabetes which are inherited vs. caused by a lack of proper diet. Inability to properly process food... and medical conditions are pretty much exempt from my hatred as these aren't institutionalized by society

I am deeply hurt by this. To learn that someone has been so kind to me would hate me simply because I am fat, that my value as a person to you relies on me being a size that you approve of.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

Ishtar Shakti

poor eating habits, overeating or binging

I grew up with these, mostly because of abuse which lead to food-based self medication. It was also a product of the quality of food in the home.

I feel my parent's ability to pay such a tax would not have protected me from this.

Ishtar Shakti

lack of exercise (i.e., couch potato kids)

I was not able to play outside as a child because of the long hours my parents worked to provide for me. By the time they returned from work, it was too dark to play outside and I was not allowed to play outside when I was home alone because if an accident occurred, there wouldn't be anyone to help me.

Ishtar Shakti

The underlined issues are what I see needs to be changed
They need to be dealt with. Obesity is caused by a number of problems. Mental illness should be addressed and the child should be seen by a counselor or someone to help the child learn better coping strategies.
I don't like the way parents teach their children to Deal with issues. I also have a feeling the issue is not being addressed. I don't like the Mentality people have. I don't like when people use remote controls to solve all their problems. I don't like people not being Proactive and I don't care if you think I'm an a** hole for my opinions I don't want children growing up thinking that they don't have to take care of themselves and with no clue how to do so properly.

I agree, I feel all of these issues need to be addressed- but I do not feel they should be addressed in a way that penalizes good people because of the symptoms they express.

Ishtar Shakti

What is soo Wrong with my opinions that you consider them bigoted and a** back ward or whatever.

I feel a lot of your post seems to confuse the symptom with the problem. When we single out people because of their symptoms, we do not address the problems either- instead we harm other people who need help.