Episode 3 planing stuff

[Haru Yates]

flutflut

Having too many spells can also be a burden at times when trying to decide what spell should be used when.

This. emotion_donotwant  

[Xa44]

flutflut

for fez, instead of the spells being decided at creation, maybe they should be decided based on current level (if using levels) or current progression, through the game. if you are in the early part of the campain, you probably want spells that are more at the caster's level. that way, you dont get OP spells right off the bat, and it can still be an element the caster doesn't actually know. (so a fire mage may randomly cast a water spell that's just as powerful as their current fire spell). As for the spells at shops, instead of making the player decide between buying armor or spell, you could think of another currency or point system that trades for spells only. Kinda like AP, but maybe like...gold for equipment, and silver for spells? or you can be creative and do something like Crystalized Life Energy from defeated enemies!

As for the lv 1 beating a lv 20, I agree, it is possible. It may take longer, but it is possible. Having 1 spell against a guy with 100 spells, is probably suicide. Having too many spells can also be a burden at times when trying to decide what spell should be used when. So it may be useful to have stronger versions of spells that a player can choose at times so they can keep the old ones for non-lethal damage. (unless you can choose to limit your firepower so it wont be lethal, then you should put that in your rules.) It might be best to find ways to keep the player from entering the stronger areas if you want to keep the story more linear. when writing your ideas out, try to explain the how, why, and what, etc as much as possible. As you know, my twin sis is a stickler for details. annoyingly so. (i'm the twin, not the little sis that's joined to actually rp.) When i rp in forums, it's more casual. You guys are doing actual an RPG with rules, so i wont be joining you, but if you need any advice, ideas, or constructive criticism, let me know.

Spells are not going to be growing in power and you could take any spell whenever you level up, casters aren't restricted to an element and there probably are people who travel the world to learn all elements
And I want this to be open world and you would need to do a few things before going to those areas, like getting a boat witch will have a good number of stuff to do.
A AP system would realistically be no different then a LV up and would probably make things more complicated
And for making spells weaker or stronger maybe a BP system like in octopath traveler could be good, and leveling could increase the cap on that as well  

[Haru Yates]

Xa44

First off HP is going to work similar to how it does in something like mutants and masterminds where it's not an HP but more of a saving throw to see if your character can take it(still working that out to more specific number) also a lot of enemys will have a higher "save" the player characters or lower for some but there are lots of big single target things that need that

If it helps d&d3.5/pathfinders has a similar saving throw system. (although it uses numerical HP values.)  

[Haru Yates]

Xa44

Spells are not going to be growing in power and you could take any spell whenever you level up, casters aren't restricted to an element

This also bugs me. Because it means everybody's a freelancer and nobody's a specialist. It kinda defeats the point of having an elemental attribute for each town, no? (like a water mage originating from the water town would likely prefer water spells over other elements because it's familiar).  

[flutflut]

Xa44

flutflut

for fez, instead of the spells being decided at creation, maybe they should be decided based on current level (if using levels) or current progression, through the game. if you are in the early part of the campain, you probably want spells that are more at the caster's level. that way, you dont get OP spells right off the bat, and it can still be an element the caster doesn't actually know. (so a fire mage may randomly cast a water spell that's just as powerful as their current fire spell). As for the spells at shops, instead of making the player decide between buying armor or spell, you could think of another currency or point system that trades for spells only. Kinda like AP, but maybe like...gold for equipment, and silver for spells? or you can be creative and do something like Crystalized Life Energy from defeated enemies!

As for the lv 1 beating a lv 20, I agree, it is possible. It may take longer, but it is possible. Having 1 spell against a guy with 100 spells, is probably suicide. Having too many spells can also be a burden at times when trying to decide what spell should be used when. So it may be useful to have stronger versions of spells that a player can choose at times so they can keep the old ones for non-lethal damage. (unless you can choose to limit your firepower so it wont be lethal, then you should put that in your rules.) It might be best to find ways to keep the player from entering the stronger areas if you want to keep the story more linear. when writing your ideas out, try to explain the how, why, and what, etc as much as possible. As you know, my twin sis is a stickler for details. annoyingly so. (i'm the twin, not the little sis that's joined to actually rp.) When i rp in forums, it's more casual. You guys are doing actual an RPG with rules, so i wont be joining you, but if you need any advice, ideas, or constructive criticism, let me know.

Spells are not going to be growing in power and you could take any spell whenever you level up, casters aren't restricted to an element and there probably are people who travel the world to learn all elements
And I want this to be open world and you would need to do a few things before going to those areas, like getting a boat witch will have a good number of stuff to do.
A AP system would realistically be no different then a LV up and would probably make things more complicated
And for making spells weaker or stronger maybe a BP system like in octopath traveler could be good, and leveling could increase the cap on that as well

if you have a way of blocking off the area temporarily so players don't get overwhelmed, that's good. that means your thinking ahead. as for the bp system, I've never played octopath, but i'm guessing you can only equip a certain number of spells at a time. That would help prevent players from being too OP and make them think about what spells they may need to take with them. you would have to decide where/when a player can change what spells are currently equipped if you use this method. Maybe in towns, or just outside of battle. But if more is better, you may not want to bother with an equip-type system. You could try a system where each time you use a spell, it gets a little stronger. you know, practice makes perfect. then it would be the spells gaining experience instead of the player. or instead of a player level, maybe call it a caster level or rank. each rank can unlock new spells to choose from so that you don't get the super powerful ones right away. you gotta work for them. lol.  

[Xa44]

Haru Yates

Xa44

A scroll system would actually work really well but then you might just have a person who takes there 3 starting spells and spends all there gold on potions and camping gear and armour, might consider using this if I could find a way to make spells come at a stable rate and also get players to want to get more spells

You could make spell scrolls considerably more affordable than weapons, or you could also do spell books (tear out the page to cast), or books to permanently teach spells to the player. Introducing rituals or spells that are rare as scrolls might make them more desirable as well (such as a raise dead spells or something that you might consider OP). If it's rare or difficult to obtain, then the player may thing twice about using it up without a good reason. (save for a dire situation). Scrolls may also make it easier to use spells that don't really suit the character using it. Then I can stop saying, "When the hell would my character bother to have learned that spell?" (Terran knows nothing about wood or nature elements spells, nor would he take the initiative to learn about them, so a scroll would allow him to use a wood/nature spell without needing any prior knowledge of how it works.)

They can also be awarded as gifts, prizes, rewards, or--more sinisterly--curses with adverse effects on the party. Same goes for enchanted items. (side-effects)

Xa44

Ok it really bothers me when people try to talk about things they aren't experienced in, sorry.

It's not that I am not experienced. I have a different play-style when I'm a GM. Not all Game Masters are the same, and I'm still trying to understand your system, is all.

Xa44

And again there will be magic items and some armor cost 88G,

Pause here for a second. Just to be clear, how valuable is the currency? If I could gain some perspective, what's the min starting currency? Is it 0? 50G? Rolled? What's your exchange rate?

Xa44

you can still improve in those ways but the way I think of it is like this

Why can't a person who is level 1 kill someone who is level 20, even if they just spam the same abilities, even a level 20 wis in D&D can kill a level 2 paladen without spells.

Pretty sure you'd be pretty pissed off if your level 20 character got pwned by a level 1. The level represents what you've seen and learned in life, so it's unlikely that the kid who just stood up and said "never done this before, but what the hell, I'll give it a try," is going to be able to beat the guy that's been practicing for years. A master martial artist has learned to read their opponents moves and avoid or counter them. A noob is essentially still figuring out how to throw a proper punch if they have 0 EXP. This is also why many campaigns start their character out at around level 5. (Force Grey did that.) Because level one characters can potentially be killed by a bear in one shot. As for a person with no experience taking out somebody who has plenty of experience in combat, it's usually a fluke gone right, or a crit. (Critical role has a house rule where a crit automatically does max dmg. Caused a trap to massacure one of the players, who was none-too-happy about it. [Whil Wee-tawn is sadly now a red gooey paste...except for his foot, which the other adventurers left behind.])

I'm not saying it can't happen, though. My sis (Bored Reckless, playing as a pixie) managed to practically one-shot a boss level 1 because she crit using her most powerful daily spell. (Which is precisely why DMG says to use an enemy's most powerful spells as soon as you're able to in battle; because otherwise you may not get a chance to use them at all.) After that, the enemy's was dead before it could even get within attacking range on it's next turn. It's own fire did it in when it burst into flames for being bloodied...]

Point is that although it is possible to defeat somebody who is at a higher level, it's unlikely that a newbie will defeat a veteran.

I have a suggestion: Why not just scrap the leveling system all together? That way you can award abilities to your players as you see fit, and you don't have to worry about the level gaps and all the complicated mechanics that go along with it? It is technically possible to run a campaign without levels, especially with the proposed system.

Xa44

Also I like the idea of you all going into harder areas and not die instantly because yoy didn't know that you would be randomly attacked by a wyvern in the lightning/wind town

I know you don't like restricting your players, but having places with enemies too strong for your players is also a tactic used in many games to prevent players from going places you don't want them to go yet. It can prevent players from obtaining certain items too early in the game, and it can help keep players on the right track by forcing them to think about their strategy. Sometimes it's up to the player to know when they are in over their head and when to retreat. If you'd rather not see them die quickly, then do enough major damage to scare the pants off the party members. You are a GM rolling the dice behind the screen, so we don't know if you conveniently fudged the numbers to prevent the party's annihilation, but we will be damn thankful to have gotten away in one piece if we are smart enough to recognize and listen to a warning shot. Don't underestimate the players intelligence when it comes to fleeing a battle.
You can also deter characters from going certain places by telling the players that their characters "get a strong sense of danger up ahead." If they choose to find out why, then scare them away. You may have to get a bit creative here.

Or better yet, simply don't give characters a reason to go to these places in the first place until you think they are ready to handle it.

Xa44

Also I should mention that again a guy with 1 spell vs a guy with 100 spells who would win, having more options makes characters stronger, like how knowing 5 LV 3 spell in D&D gives you room for a lot of stuff like fireball, counter spell, ice blast(red dragons don't take fire DMG)

Even "fireball" can be cast at a higher level for more damage. Thus, the spell does become stronger as you level up.
https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Fireball#content
Not to mention that this looks OP by your standards. (Check the attributes. range is 150', so it can damage a target up to 170' away. Does 8d6 [or half, if successfully save], and if you factor "logic" into the mechanics, then the targets are now all on fire, which would cause additional damage until they can put themselves out,or until they burn to death. Just saying.)

Xa44

also about not having classes

I said "builds", not classes. I've been assuming that they are there in some form or another, because that's basically a character's job. Bored Reckless is a rogue/thief, and my Terran is essentially a rogue/assassin, if you will. A thief's build would suggest if his abilities cater more towards that of a mugger or a cat burglar. (one is aggressive, the other avoids fights.)

Xa44

(1)Top Hat- cast a random spell either of one type or all types(decided at character creation)
(19)Drain Mana- touch any living thing and absorb mana from it, then cast a random arcane spell

You haven't explained what mana is in the context of your RP system yet. Is it MP?

Xa44

(20)Raining Hats- drop 10 hats down from the sky in random locations, each hat will cast a random spell when it lands(hats are neutral party)
(21)Multiroll- when a random spell is cast: pick one of 2 spells to cast
(22)Fez- cast a random spell out of a pool of 10(the spells in this pool are decided at character creation, and can't be a legendary spell)

There is themed builds you can make just that they aren't put out in the open and anyone could use the spell without picking the class

Might I inquire further about these builds?
What can we do to optimize our skills for the theme/build/direction we want our characters to develop in?

Also, I found a debate that seems related to our argument. Thought I'd post it for fun or something.
https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/6132wp/thoughts_on_power_gaming_in_rpgs_especially_ones/

The lightning town thing is like a you can, but the reason I want youu to have a chance is so that way you don't all die and can go back to a more resonable place, or if you are good like in dark souls you can go to these areas pick up your grass crest shield and GG

and I really don't wanna say that leveling is a thing but I can't think of a better work for it

As for building optimizations 2 things
1.magic items, I will add in things that will fill into class rolls U asked you about this before but I probably didn't explain it well
2.well if I haven't made is obvious already with random spells, there is already a lot of builds other than that for example with water there is a lot of movement based spells witch you can putt into 2 different builds, a blood cast build for being able to stay up close and keep pressure on or a sniper build that let's you get up to high spots and run away quickly,

Also mana is MP but I'm not putting a limit on how much you can cast to keep things simple  

[Xa44]

Haru Yates

This also bugs me. Because it means everybody's a freelancer and nobody's a specialist. It kinda defeats the point of having an elemental attribute for each town, no? (like a water mage originating from the water town would likely prefer water spells over other elements because it's familiar).

Culturally yeah people don't do this a lot and more than 2 elements would make a character weaker because of you not developing the main things you can do, tophat is always good  

[Xa44]

flutflut

if you have a way of blocking off the area temporarily so players don't get overwhelmed, that's good. that means your thinking ahead. as for the bp system, I've never played octopath, but i'm guessing you can only equip a certain number of spells at a time. That would help prevent players from being too OP and make them think about what spells they may need to take with them. you would have to decide where/when a player can change what spells are currently equipped if you use this method. Maybe in towns, or just outside of battle. But if more is better, you may not want to bother with an equip-type system. You could try a system where each time you use a spell, it gets a little stronger. you know, practice makes perfect. then it would be the spells gaining experience instead of the player. or instead of a player level, maybe call it a caster level or rank. each rank can unlock new spells to choose from so that you don't get the super powerful ones right away. you gotta work for them. lol.

The way BP works is that at the end of your turn you get 1 BP and you can use that to buff up a abilities
All that individual spell thing sounds kinda too complicated and makes me think of FF2 and that game is...  

[flutflut]

Xa44

flutflut

if you have a way of blocking off the area temporarily so players don't get overwhelmed, that's good. that means your thinking ahead. as for the bp system, I've never played octopath, but i'm guessing you can only equip a certain number of spells at a time. That would help prevent players from being too OP and make them think about what spells they may need to take with them. you would have to decide where/when a player can change what spells are currently equipped if you use this method. Maybe in towns, or just outside of battle. But if more is better, you may not want to bother with an equip-type system. You could try a system where each time you use a spell, it gets a little stronger. you know, practice makes perfect. then it would be the spells gaining experience instead of the player. or instead of a player level, maybe call it a caster level or rank. each rank can unlock new spells to choose from so that you don't get the super powerful ones right away. you gotta work for them. lol.

The way BP works is that at the end of your turn you get 1 BP and you can use that to buff up a abilities
All that individual spell thing sounds kinda too complicated and makes me think of FF2 and that game is...

yeah, i did think of that too. sweatdrop as long as we don't start attacking our friends to get stronger. lol.  

[Xa44]

Haru Yates

Oh yeah and sry about the gold thing
You get about 60G a day and a reasonable sum of that will be put into buying food and camping supplies also HP recovery items, so the amount you will be gaining is way lower than that  

[Haru Yates]

Xa44

The lightning town thing is like a you can, but the reason I want you to have a chance is so that way you don't all die and can go back to a more reasonable place, or if you are good like in dark souls you can go to these areas pick up your grass crest shield and GG

and I really don't wanna say that leveling is a thing but I can't think of a better word for it

As for building optimizations 2 things
1.magic items, I will add in things that will fill into class rolls U asked you about this before but I probably didn't explain it well
2.well if I haven't made is obvious already with random spells, there is already a lot of builds other than that for example with water there is a lot of movement based spells witch you can putt into 2 different builds, a blood cast build for being able to stay up close and keep pressure on or a sniper build that let's you get up to high spots and run away quickly,

Also mana is MP but I'm not putting a limit on how much you can cast to keep things simple

Ok, now I think I'm beginning to understand what you're trying to say when you say "level up", and now the not wanting spells to have levels makes waaaaay more sense! You should have said that before! whee
Although it may help to call "leveling up" something different. Call it "Acquisition" (as in to acquire something), "Gains" (as in to gain something), or "Update". Or you could just call it a "unlock," or simply, "a new spell has appeared in your spell book."
I now have a sense of direction for reworking or fixing my spells, thank you. (Fair warning, I still plan to come up with spells that aren't necessarily in the list yet, and I still intend to have most--if not all--of them will be related to shadows or have a shadow-like feel. That's my goal, anyways. I wish for him to to specialize in that.)

As for the builds, do you have anything for "shadow assassins"? neutral Looking for spells that don't fall outside Terran's area of expertise. Also know that he doesn't like unpredictability (so random spells are probably not something he'd appreciate using much). Like I said, I'd rather him specialize in Shadow magic, which may actually exclude some darkness spells.

Also, I can't remember what tophat does. I just know you keep saying it's badass, which doesn't necessarily make it more appealing to me.  

[Haru Yates]

Xa44

Haru Yates

Oh yeah and sry about the gold thing
You get about 60G a day and a reasonable sum of that will be put into buying food and camping supplies also HP recovery items, so the amount you will be gaining is way lower than that

You mean we get paid daily wages?! *thanks the gods for my continued employment* (I'm joking, so don't read too much into this comment. eek )  

[Haru Yates]

flutflut

Xa44

flutflut

if you have a way of blocking off the area temporarily so players don't get overwhelmed, that's good. that means your thinking ahead. as for the bp system, I've never played octopath, but i'm guessing you can only equip a certain number of spells at a time. That would help prevent players from being too OP and make them think about what spells they may need to take with them. you would have to decide where/when a player can change what spells are currently equipped if you use this method. Maybe in towns, or just outside of battle. But if more is better, you may not want to bother with an equip-type system. You could try a system where each time you use a spell, it gets a little stronger. you know, practice makes perfect. then it would be the spells gaining experience instead of the player. or instead of a player level, maybe call it a caster level or rank. each rank can unlock new spells to choose from so that you don't get the super powerful ones right away. you gotta work for them. lol.

The way BP works is that at the end of your turn you get 1 BP and you can use that to buff up a abilities
All that individual spell thing sounds kinda too complicated and makes me think of FF2 and that game is...

yeah, i did think of that too. sweatdrop as long as we don't start attacking our friends to get stronger. lol.

Didn't you do that if FF2?  

[Xa44]

Haru Yates

Xa44

The lightning town thing is like a you can, but the reason I want you to have a chance is so that way you don't all die and can go back to a more reasonable place, or if you are good like in dark souls you can go to these areas pick up your grass crest shield and GG

and I really don't wanna say that leveling is a thing but I can't think of a better word for it

As for building optimizations 2 things
1.magic items, I will add in things that will fill into class rolls U asked you about this before but I probably didn't explain it well
2.well if I haven't made is obvious already with random spells, there is already a lot of builds other than that for example with water there is a lot of movement based spells witch you can putt into 2 different builds, a blood cast build for being able to stay up close and keep pressure on or a sniper build that let's you get up to high spots and run away quickly,

Also mana is MP but I'm not putting a limit on how much you can cast to keep things simple

Ok, now I think I'm beginning to understand what you're trying to say when you say "level up", and now the not wanting spells to have levels makes waaaaay more sense! You should have said that before! whee
Although it may help to call "leveling up" something different. Call it "Acquisition" (as in to acquire something), "Gains" (as in to gain something), or "Update". Or you could just call it a "unlock," or simply, "a new spell has appeared in your spell book."
I now have a sense of direction for reworking or fixing my spells, thank you. (Fair warning, I still plan to come up with spells that aren't necessarily in the list yet, and I still intend to have most--if not all--of them will be related to shadows or have a shadow-like feel. That's my goal, anyways. I wish for him to to specialize in that.)

As for the builds, do you have anything for "shadow assassins"? neutral Looking for spells that don't fall outside Terran's area of expertise. Also know that he doesn't like unpredictability (so random spells are probably not something he'd appreciate using much). Like I said, I'd rather him specialize in Shadow magic, which may actually exclude some darkness spells.

Also, I can't remember what tophat does. I just know you keep saying it's badass, which doesn't necessarily make it more appealing to me.

Tophat is just cast a random spell, and I am really biased to random stuff

And jo you don't get wages but you should be able to do 3 quest in a day and on avrage they give 20G and about 3 can be done in a day

For a assassin's I would say you would probably want

(2)Shadow Cloak- cover an area in Shadows that the caster can see clearly in
(3)Form of Shadow- temporarily become a Shadow
(6)Shadow Dart- summon a group of darts to then throw at targets within range for lesser DMG
(7)Shadow Blade- make tools out of shardows
(11)Hidden Form- temporarily cover yourself in shadows when in this state you cannot be targeted
(16)Falling Banishment- the battlefield cannot be moved out of  

[Xa44]

Haru Yates

BTW, nice avi. 3nodding

Thank flutflut for that(I love Tokyo ghoul)