Asatru a la Deoridhe

[TeaDidikai]

Deoridhe

Firstly, the nine noble virtues are not historically accurate. They are drawn from the Hovamol/Havamal in most cases, but aren't necessarily in line with the myths or contemporary culture, nor should they be treated as some sort of Heathen Ten Commandments.

Not only this, but the elements that are drawn from The Havamal in most cases are poorly represented in what I have seen.

Often there is far too much recontextualization.  

[Depraved Jester]

Thank you for the helpful info.
This has helped me alot, And I believe it has helped many other people
new to Asatru.  

[too2sweet]

I have come across several people lately claiming that Fenrir is a God - is there anything in the lore that supports this (I'm thinking not, but I'm not all that well versed on the subject)?

Thanks!  

[Wrath of Ezekiel]

too2sweet

I have come across several people lately claiming that Fenrir is a God - is there anything in the lore that supports this (I'm thinking not, but I'm not all that well versed on the subject)?

Thanks!

*Sputters* Isn't that like saying that Apophis (Egyptian serpent that Ra and Set fight all day while trying to guide the sun across the sky) is a god?  

[Cranium Squirrel]

True Colours of Destiny

*Sputters* Isn't that like saying that Apophis (Egyptian serpent that Ra and Set fight all day while trying to guide the sun across the sky) is a god?

You mean it isn't?

STARGATE HAS LIED TO ME AGAIN! crying  

[too2sweet]

That's more or less what I thought, but I figured I'd at least go through the motions of checking. blaugh  

[Deoridhe]

too2sweet

That's more or less what I thought, but I figured I'd at least go through the motions of checking. blaugh

To add on, just because The Wolf isn't a god doesn't mean you can't form a relationship with him. However, from what I've heard of this particular Loki'sson, he is less interested in humanity than even some like Sunna and Mani and might be openly hostile.  

[Bastemhet]

True Colours of Destiny

too2sweet

I have come across several people lately claiming that Fenrir is a God - is there anything in the lore that supports this (I'm thinking not, but I'm not all that well versed on the subject)?

Thanks!

*Sputters* Isn't that like saying that Apophis (Egyptian serpent that Ra and Set fight all day while trying to guide the sun across the sky) is a god?

I would argue that Apophis is a god, albeit a lesser one. If Ma'at could be a goddess as an embodiment of the concept of order, why couldn't Apophis embody disorder as yet another divine entity?  

[Deoridhe]

Sophist

True Colours of Destiny

too2sweet

I have come across several people lately claiming that Fenrir is a God - is there anything in the lore that supports this (I'm thinking not, but I'm not all that well versed on the subject)?

Thanks!

*Sputters* Isn't that like saying that Apophis (Egyptian serpent that Ra and Set fight all day while trying to guide the sun across the sky) is a god?

I would argue that Apophis is a god, albeit a lesser one. If Ma'at could be a goddess as an embodiment of the concept of order, why couldn't Apophis embody disorder as yet another divine entity?

Ah, you'd probably best take it up with a Kemetic, at the very least, but the comparative figures in this case are definitely not gods, since that designation is primarily reserved for the Aesir and the Vanir they adopted.  

[Bastemhet]

Deoridhe

Sophist

True Colours of Destiny

too2sweet

I have come across several people lately claiming that Fenrir is a God - is there anything in the lore that supports this (I'm thinking not, but I'm not all that well versed on the subject)?

Thanks!

*Sputters* Isn't that like saying that Apophis (Egyptian serpent that Ra and Set fight all day while trying to guide the sun across the sky) is a god?

I would argue that Apophis is a god, albeit a lesser one. If Ma'at could be a goddess as an embodiment of the concept of order, why couldn't Apophis embody disorder as yet another divine entity?

Ah, you'd probably best take it up with a Kemetic, at the very least, but the comparative figures in this case are definitely not gods, since that designation is primarily reserved for the Aesir and the Vanir they adopted.

I am a Kemetic reconstructionist. I could go into further about why Apophis could be considered a lesser god but this is your thread about your beliefs. But thank you for clarifying about that. I actually thought Fenrir was a god, but I admit I'm quite ignorant about Asatru lore. I just wanted to look through this thread to learn more about Asatru and I found it kind of funny that something about my path would be in here.  

[Deoridhe]

Sophist

But thank you for clarifying about that. I actually thought Fenrir was a god, but I admit I'm quite ignorant about Asatru lore. I just wanted to look through this thread to learn more about Asatru and I found it kind of funny that something about my path would be in here.

No, he is the son of a god, but that does not a god make.

With the Norse, the role we think of as a "god" is a reflection of the relationship with humanity in general, not characteristics of the figure. This is a narrower use than, say, translations of the Japanese "kami" to "god." Fenrir would (were he in Japan) fall under the "kami" designation, and possibly even the more specific "youkai" but the word "god" translated from the Norse is actually, if my scholarship is not deserting me, "Aesir" or "Aes" which is very, very specific and doesn't include the Hungry Son of Odin's Blood Brother.

This is the problem with translations, though. Different spiritual traditions consider different things under the umbrella that is then translated into English as "god" and things become very confusing very quickly.  

[TeaDidikai]

Is there a word that would have translated as "Deity"?  

[Bastemhet]

Deoridhe

Sophist

But thank you for clarifying about that. I actually thought Fenrir was a god, but I admit I'm quite ignorant about Asatru lore. I just wanted to look through this thread to learn more about Asatru and I found it kind of funny that something about my path would be in here.

No, he is the son of a god, but that does not a god make.

With the Norse, the role we think of as a "god" is a reflection of the relationship with humanity in general, not characteristics of the figure. This is a narrower use than, say, translations of the Japanese "kami" to "god." Fenrir would (were he in Japan) fall under the "kami" designation, and possibly even the more specific "youkai" but the word "god" translated from the Norse is actually, if my scholarship is not deserting me, "Aesir" or "Aes" which is very, very specific and doesn't include the Hungry Son of Odin's Blood Brother.

This is the problem with translations, though. Different spiritual traditions consider different things under the umbrella that is then translated into English as "god" and things become very confusing very quickly.

That is so interesting that you bring up the Shinto understanding of "kami." An acquaintance on another board likened the Egyptian concept to the Shinto word "kami." The Egyptian word that we commonly designate as god is "netjer," but I read somewhere that it would better be defined as "divine power." In that case demons would also have divine power, if we're talking about the context of metaphysical makeup, but would be lower beings in the deity hierarchy than the main Egyptian ennead that most people are familiar with when they think "Ancient Egypt."

Is "youkai" a demon? I'm not really familiar with Shinto. Would then Loki be considered an antagonistic being with...I guess spiritual power and makeup? Actually the more I think about it the more I wonder, what differentiates between a lesser god and higher god? Power? Metaphysical property? Hmm...  

[Shearaha]

Sophist

Deoridhe

Sophist

But thank you for clarifying about that. I actually thought Fenrir was a god, but I admit I'm quite ignorant about Asatru lore. I just wanted to look through this thread to learn more about Asatru and I found it kind of funny that something about my path would be in here.

No, he is the son of a god, but that does not a god make.

With the Norse, the role we think of as a "god" is a reflection of the relationship with humanity in general, not characteristics of the figure. This is a narrower use than, say, translations of the Japanese "kami" to "god." Fenrir would (were he in Japan) fall under the "kami" designation, and possibly even the more specific "youkai" but the word "god" translated from the Norse is actually, if my scholarship is not deserting me, "Aesir" or "Aes" which is very, very specific and doesn't include the Hungry Son of Odin's Blood Brother.

This is the problem with translations, though. Different spiritual traditions consider different things under the umbrella that is then translated into English as "god" and things become very confusing very quickly.

That is so interesting that you bring up the Shinto understanding of "kami." An acquaintance on another board likened the Egyptian concept to the Shinto word "kami." The Egyptian word that we commonly designate as god is "netjer," but I read somewhere that it would better be defined as "divine power." In that case demons would also have divine power, if we're talking about the context of metaphysical makeup, but would be lower beings in the deity hierarchy than the main Egyptian ennead that most people are familiar with when they think "Ancient Egypt."

Is "youkai" a demon? I'm not really familiar with Shinto. Would then Loki be considered an antagonistic being with...I guess spiritual power and makeup? Actually the more I think about it the more I wonder, what differentiates between a lesser god and higher god? Power? Metaphysical property? Hmm...

Most I can add here is that "youkai" can be translated roughly as demon. To my knowledge (limited that it is) there is no one word in the English language that has an identical meaning to youkai. My understanding is that unlike western demons youkai don't particularly care about humans one way or another. Interactions could go either way depending on what the youkai wanted and the most expedient way for them to get it.

This is only my understanding of the term, if someone with more knowledge wishes to correct me please do so.  

[Deoridhe]

TeaDidikai

Is there a word that would have translated as "Deity"?

Aes is the closest I could think of, but I'm not a linguist as such.

Sophist

That is so interesting that you bring up the Shinto understanding of "kami." An acquaintance on another board likened the Egyptian concept to the Shinto word "kami." The Egyptian word that we commonly designate as god is "netjer," but I read somewhere that it would better be defined as "divine power." In that case demons would also have divine power, if we're talking about the context of metaphysical makeup, but would be lower beings in the deity hierarchy than the main Egyptian ennead that most people are familiar with when they think "Ancient Egypt."

Is "youkai" a demon? I'm not really familiar with Shinto. Would then Loki be considered an antagonistic being with...I guess spiritual power and makeup? Actually the more I think about it the more I wonder, what differentiates between a lesser god and higher god? Power? Metaphysical property? Hmm...

One of the things that shocked me when I started learning about Shinto was how shifting from a Western post-Christian view of gods to a pre-Christian/alt-Christian view of divine beings some of whom are called gods and worshipped mae my own mythos much more understandable.

Which isn't to say Asatru is Shinto, but Asatru is closer to Shinto than Christianity, by far.

Loki is not antagonistic until he is bound, and there are arguments about why he is bound. Even when he is antagonistic, there is no indication he is necessarily in league with Surt (who IS antagonistic). Wars with more than two sides are hardly uncommon.

It's fairly simply in Asatru - gods are worshiped. Other wights are not. And don't use the word wight unless you're really sure of your audience. Ah heh heh heh (it's pronounced like "white"). I use landvaettir verbally when talking about the land-bound wights and other specific anmes likewise due to how easily it can be misinterpreted.

Shearaha

Most I can add here is that "youkai" can be translated roughly as demon. To my knowledge (limited that it is) there is no one word in the English language that has an identical meaning to youkai. My understanding is that unlike western demons youkai don't particularly care about humans one way or another. Interactions could go either way depending on what the youkai wanted and the most expedient way for them to get it.

This is only my understanding of the term, if someone with more knowledge wishes to correct me please do so.

That's my understanding of Youkai as well. It is a very broad term which covers a lot of ground.