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Educational, Respectful and Responsible Paganism. Don't worry, we'll teach you how. 

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Gho the Girl

PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:02 pm
Fiddlers Green
TeaDidikai
I haven't seen her out at Jerome and Carolee's since Halloween I believe.

This past?
That is not so long. Mayhaps tis time to get back in touch?

Also, caveat, on a completely unrelated note...

I really don't mind being the villain, especially when the world around me is so despicable. I am in the wrong when I take fist to a person for insulting me, condemned by the self same people who constantly suggest far less honourable attacks for far weaker slights. I am the one who is causing problems when I refuse to say to someone's face anything other than what I say behind their back. I am being dramatic when I demand the same.

Fie.

Simpering and craven cowards. Oh, they have reasons for it... I just find them faulty and hypocritical/internally inconsistent. And mayhaps there is the rub. I am easy to dislike because I remind them of what petty, vapid, morally stunted creatures they are.

Jealousy? Envy? Of me?
I am lowly creature, a failure and despite the many advantages handed to me, of little consequence. How pathetic do you have to be to find me a challenge to your comfortable self-worth? Why pinion your value to my views? Are mine the only ones that aren't written by "reality TV" or as malleable and mercurial as liquid cinnabar?

I know why I am upset... You can do so much better. I've seen it. I've seen real strength; moral, spiritual strength threatening to surface. You have it in you, stop weakening yourself because it seems easy, because it's simpler to fit in when you are scum.

I expect better because you are better.
If only you could see through my eyes.  
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:17 am
Caveat: Not a pitty party.
Recursive Paradox
I actually find your dedication, your loyalty, your principles, your unfaltering love for the world even in the face of some of its most abhorrent aspects (either seen by you personally or seen by the proxy of watching those you care for harmed by them) to be intensely admirable.

Your willingness to learn from mistakes and your ability to accept that they've been made is especially something I admire about you.

So I'd hardly call you lowly, a failure or of little consequence.

Thank you. I do appreciate your observations, even if I do not share them, additional perspective is often good.

However, my point stands... who am I?
I am not a man who has won great battles, only small ones, of which I am exceedingly proud. I am (sometimes self-)righteous, pompous and often heavey-handed.
For all the advantages I was given, I have squandered the most of them. I have enacted some change on a small and personal level, which is very precious to me and significant... yet it is selfish. I get to bask in the good I have done, in the localized progress... yet I have not had the impact on a wider scale I am capable. This is my arrogance. I do believe... no... Know I can change the world for the better, on a far larger scale, yet I haven't. I have rested on my laurels, licked my wounds, and become bitter and cynical.
I have no more lived up to my potential than the people who irritate me most. Mayhaps I project my own feelings of failure upon them. If so, it is more my own sin.

I was, by some standards, high-born, yet I skulk thousands of miles away from my family, rather than changing them for the better, taking the fight to them. I hide behind familial duty, rather than living it.

I live in fear that the evils of my past will prevent me from accomplishing my goals. Not only might they be used to taint my intentions by association in the public eye, and ad hominem, while a fallacy, works on the masses.

My consequence is limited by my anonymity, which is a result of my sordid past.

Kuroiban
To add to that, I've found your sense of patriotic duty, in spite on the failings our country's armed forces has made in reference to you, very inspiring...on top of what Paradox has said.

Your humility and self deprecation is also top notch. wink

Thank you, tho I'm far from humble.
I am deeply aware of my faults.
I am also very arrogant about my strengths. They just rarely come into play.
I use arrogant rather than proud because I not only have ablist leanings, but also tend to over-estimate my strengths. I am no slouch in a fight, be it melee or fire. It gets me into trouble, nothing I can't handle, but I have had no humbling experiences in battle. Thus my arrogance is considerable there. Further, I can be dismissive of others in a similar regard, this isn't a good thing. Bravado has it's place, I just over do it at times.

Gho the Girl
If only you could see through my eyes.

But then they would be my eyes. And as we all know, I wear glasses for a reason. wink
My very lack of omniscience is one of the few things that allows me to forgive others. If I do not know why they are as they are, I can create excuses for them that I will accept, that hold my judgment, and I am a very judgmental person, in check. I cannot see as you see, otherwise I would not be Erich.
~sad smile~  

Fiddlers Green


Gho the Girl

PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:24 am
Fiddlers Green


Gho the Girl
If only you could see through my eyes.

But then they would be my eyes. And as we all know, I wear glasses for a reason. wink
My very lack of omniscience is one of the few things that allows me to forgive others. If I do not know why they are as they are, I can create excuses for them that I will accept, that hold my judgment, and I am a very judgmental person, in check. I cannot see as you see, otherwise I would not be Erich.
~sad smile~
Weird thing, I actually have the opposite view.

When I can see the world through another's eyes, I empathise with them, as I realise that I am them also.  
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:43 am
Gho the Girl
When I can see the world through another's eyes, I empathise with them, as I realise that I am them also.
You sound like you've been hanging around with me. ninja biggrin  

Cranium Squirrel

Friendly Trickster


Gho the Girl

PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:51 am
Byaggha
Gho the Girl
When I can see the world through another's eyes, I empathise with them, as I realise that I am them also.
You sound like you've been hanging around with me. ninja biggrin
Or maybe we've been hanging within eachother? ninja  
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:54 am
Gho the Girl
Or maybe we've been hanging within eachother? ninja
*spooky voice* OOoOoOoOooOoo....

Or something. heart  

Cranium Squirrel

Friendly Trickster


Calixti

PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:58 am
A blog I love, run by someone who (I think) sincerely tries to be a trans ally, eulogized Mary Daly. Then, when informed that she was a transphobic a**, added an 'update' basically saying 'yeah, she had some shitty things but she still did good stuff!'

I'm enraged and upset. Perhaps unreasonably so. But damn it, it's not like Daly's transphobia wasn't well-known.  
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:38 pm
ShadowCatSoul
...if you were with someone who made a stupid, life threatening choice, would you leave them because of it?

I wouldn't, but I understand why another might.
People have different tolerances. We may gain forgiveness some day... but forgetfulness is much more rare.

Gho, I am less a kind person. I try to be a fair person. If I do not know the reasons a person committed an action, it is not fair to judge them.
If I Know, then I find it much harder to stay my hand. My expectations are unrealistic. The more I learn, the more I criticize. My ignorance is the very thing that allows me to not stand in condemnation over anyone other than myself.
I am glad my brutish way is not also yours.  

Fiddlers Green


Fiddlers Green

PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:48 pm
Calixti
A blog I love, run by someone who (I think) sincerely tries to be a trans ally, eulogized Mary Daly. Then, when informed that she was a transphobic a**, added an 'update' basically saying 'yeah, she had some shitty things but she still did good stuff!'

I'm enraged and upset. Perhaps unreasonably so. But damn it, it's not like Daly's transphobia wasn't well-known.

Daly was a hate driven person from everything I have been able to gather of her. For the longest time I detested anything with the label Feminist because I thought her misandry was a universal factor. I still have knee jerks over it, and have an abiding skepticism of the "Theology" she was a contributor to.

I am not sad that my enemy is dead, only that she is not forgotten.  
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:54 pm
Calixti
A blog I love, run by someone who (I think) sincerely tries to be a trans ally, eulogized Mary Daly. Then, when informed that she was a transphobic a**, added an 'update' basically saying 'yeah, she had some shitty things but she still did good stuff!'

I'm enraged and upset. Perhaps unreasonably so. But damn it, it's not like Daly's transphobia wasn't well-known.


Of many of the pagan blogs I occasionally gloss over, only one actually seemed to give a hoot that even if she pioneered the Goddess movement, she was hateful to anything outside her idea of feminism.

And even that was addressed in a second post pretty much saying "I'm not transphobic for saying that she was instrumental in the movement."

Which is true enough, but it's easy to hide behind that rather than really engaging on the implications of such people being key parts of certain pagan, feminist or other movements

On the other hand, I don't like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I like that blog, and until I see a pattern develop, in what is usually a safe space, I'll cut some slack. Just as surely I hope that people cut me slack when I make mistakes here.

eta: course, to be really fair, I had no idea who Daly was! My feminist reading has mostly been modern work and not so much second wave.  

maenad nuri
Captain


ShadowCatSoul

PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:01 pm
Fiddlers Green
ShadowCatSoul
...if you were with someone who made a stupid, life threatening choice, would you leave them because of it?

I wouldn't, but I understand why another might.
People have different tolerances. We may gain forgiveness some day... but forgetfulness is much more rare.

Gho, I am less a kind person. I try to be a fair person. If I do not know the reasons a person committed an action, it is not fair to judge them.
If I Know, then I find it much harder to stay my hand. My expectations are unrealistic. The more I learn, the more I criticize. My ignorance is the very thing that allows me to not stand in condemnation over anyone other than myself.
I am glad my brutish way is not also yours.


He's just scared it might happen again, and I'm not sure how to assure him that it never will...  
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:23 pm
maenad nuri

On the other hand, I don't like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I like that blog, and until I see a pattern develop, in what is usually a safe space, I'll cut some slack.


There is a pattern. I was just too naive to see it. It goes beyond transphobia though. A lot of hate for sex workers too.  

Recursive Paradox


Recursive Paradox

PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:33 pm
Fiddlers Green
Calixti
A blog I love, run by someone who (I think) sincerely tries to be a trans ally, eulogized Mary Daly. Then, when informed that she was a transphobic a**, added an 'update' basically saying 'yeah, she had some shitty things but she still did good stuff!'

I'm enraged and upset. Perhaps unreasonably so. But damn it, it's not like Daly's transphobia wasn't well-known.

Daly was a hate driven person from everything I have been able to gather of her. For the longest time I detested anything with the label Feminist because I thought her misandry was a universal factor. I still have knee jerks over it, and have an abiding skepticism of the "Theology" she was a contributor to.

I am not sad that my enemy is dead, only that she is not forgotten.


I am sad that she is not only not forgotten but that her words are still taken as truth.  
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:45 pm
Recursive Paradox
maenad nuri

On the other hand, I don't like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I like that blog, and until I see a pattern develop, in what is usually a safe space, I'll cut some slack.


There is a pattern. I was just too naive to see it. It goes beyond transphobia though. A lot of hate for sex workers too.


Yeah? I haven't seen it (but I skim, and well, ADHD, so I miss a bit) but is it more in the comments or in the actual posts? If it's the comments, then I really haven't read it.  

maenad nuri
Captain


Recursive Paradox

PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:32 pm
maenad nuri
Recursive Paradox
maenad nuri

On the other hand, I don't like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I like that blog, and until I see a pattern develop, in what is usually a safe space, I'll cut some slack.


There is a pattern. I was just too naive to see it. It goes beyond transphobia though. A lot of hate for sex workers too.


Yeah? I haven't seen it (but I skim, and well, ADHD, so I miss a bit) but is it more in the comments or in the actual posts? If it's the comments, then I really haven't read it.


Comments mostly.

But the thing that really clinched it for me, that made it so I was no longer giving chances, was how she and her staff handled the mistake.

The fact that the post eulogizing Mary Daly was up at all was a problem. She did not grasp this, despite it being said multiple times. Her edit to the post did not address this and in fact addressed a strawperson of the issue raised in the first place and not even all that well.

And then, when dissent continued in the comments around her actions and the apologism going on in the comments, PaulSpudd locked the comment thread, killing all dissent regarding the post being up, on the basis of tone.

Tone argument being a major derail.

So yeah, I'm not inclined to forgive them now. The mistake was one thing. The horrid handling of it was another.  
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Pagan Fluffy Rehabilitation Center

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