Evil Within Paganism

[spaceprincess18]

I'm not sure about the existence of evil. I have a difficult time seing it as a concrete thing, because everyone's definition is different. I think people can make poor choices, or do "bad" things, but I don't think that cements proof of evil. I think that just proves that we are human, and that we are here to learn.
I also feel that "dark" does not equal "evil." I think there has to be a balance, Without dark, there would be no light. I think everyone should be aware of, in touch with, and comfortable about their darker side, and equating the word dark with the word evil prevents that from happening.  

[Deoridhe]

I feel the need to expand on why I'm uneasy with claims of an objective evil which humans can identify.

In my experience and to my knwoledge, the claim of "X is evil" is almost always closely followed by "let's destroy/control/erradicate/etc... the evil". Now, if the people were right then perhaps this would be fine, but again to my knowledge and in my experience people aren't right. Mob phenomena such as the witch hunts, the Satanic Ritual Abuse Cults, and so on are hugely destructive, not just in terms of the people tortured and killed over them but also in terms of the rents they leave in the fabric of civilization. I don't mean civilization in terms of community, but rather in terms of a conduct of behavior which seeks truth and right action toward both the self and the other (I can clarify further if you'd like).

In my view, civilized people don't burn people at the stake after a trumped up trial. They don't invade other countries claiming their deity told them to. They don't torture their prisoners. Labelling the people to be burned, the citizens of the other country, and the prisoners as "evil" makes it a whole lot easier to justify mistreatment, though. That human tendency makes me both very nervous and very sad.  

[Starlock]

Deoridhe

In my experience and to my knwoledge, the claim of "X is evil" is almost always closely followed by "let's destroy/control/erradicate/etc... the evil". Now, if the people were right then perhaps this would be fine, but again to my knowledge and in my experience people aren't right.

[snip]

Labelling the people to be burned, the citizens of the other country, and the prisoners as "evil" makes it a whole lot easier to justify mistreatment, though. That human tendency makes me both very nervous and very sad.

That's similar to the reasons for my sentiment as well. Labeling something as evil, psychologically, is a demonization tactic that allows you to distance yourself from your opposition. It produces a stark "us" and "them" which makes for easy rationalization of differenetial treatment. Whether or not objective evil exists (or for that matter objective reality) the fact of the matter is that the objective object is not perceived in the same way by people. So even if there is an objective evil, functionally it has some strong subjectivity to it because of the innate biases of a human perspective.  

[Fiddlers Green]

SoundDoctrine

So, how do you personally tell what's the objective good and the objective evil? Is there a way to see past the conceptual realm, or can you never tell?

Well, beyound Gnosis, tis very difficult.
However, as Concepts, they don't exist directly in the physical world.
The perceptual world is not the conceptual world... concepts have shadows or echos in the perceptual world, but are not exactly the same.
All cookies are cookies... regardless of whether they are peanut butter or snickerdoodle... However, these cookies are also peanut butter, or cinnamon, or anyother concepts, rolled together.
Thus Cookie (the concept) becomes far more complicated in the perceptual cookies we have out here.
And unlike cookies, generally speaking, one cannot see, smell, hear, taste, or touch evil... muchless Evil.
It is a concept which has expressions, oft in actions, but not so much in physical objects, making it even harder to percieve.

Tea, wanna go into just a bit more detail there?
Do you mean they aren't diametricly opposed, or that they are not, between the two of them, all encompassing? sweatdrop  

[Boadicia]

All that is good or evil depends on the individual situation. Killing someone may be considered evil, but doing it in self-defense is not only usually accepted, but in some circumstances expected. One person may love cats, but someone who likes mice may hate cats with a passion. It's relative. I personally don't believe in evil gods. After all, we're doing a bad enough job without them.  

[CuAnnan]

Boadicia

I personally don't believe in evil gods. After all, we're doing a bad enough job without them.

Ah wow, where to start.
I believe that there are Gods that are pretty much evil.
I think that they don't think they're evil. My Gods are pretty non forthcoming on the matter, "they have their reasons" is what it amounts to. Balor, for example.
Whether or not they are evil is irrelevant. The problem I have is with your reasoning. We're doing a bad enough job of it, so there are no evil Gods? That's not a very good reason to not believe in evil Gods.
There are enough trees, so I don't believe in tree Gods?  

[saint dreya]

Cuchullain

I think that they don't think they're evil. My Gods are pretty non forthcoming on the matter, "they have their reasons" is what it amounts to. Balor, for example.

and this is the reason why i don't believe in "good" and "evil", added that they can be purely subjective.

while, yes, i can agree there are some pretty, uh, "interesting" beings that are not necessarily looking out for the betterment of other beings, some in particular specifically gunning for certain beings, i cannot call them evil. harmful to my way of life, or my living in general, yes.

labelling one "good" and "evil", for me, denotes that one has a higher moral standing than the other. something i am loathe to do, for if ever my morals change, whole definitions and associations are whirlwinded about.  

[Sound Doxa]

spaceprincess18

I'm not sure about the existence of evil. I have a difficult time seing it as a concrete thing, because everyone's definition is different. I think people can make poor choices, or do "bad" things, but I don't think that cements proof of evil. I think that just proves that we are human, and that we are here to learn.
I also feel that "dark" does not equal "evil." I think there has to be a balance, Without dark, there would be no light. I think everyone should be aware of, in touch with, and comfortable about their darker side, and equating the word dark with the word evil prevents that from happening.

I guess I should've gone more into depth of what I meant when I said,"darkness". See, in the context of the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church, they can have light without darkness because their light is the light of Christ within them. The light of Christ automatically expels the darkness (see John 8:12). I equated darkness with evil because that is how it's treated within the Missouri Lutheran Church. It's viewed as a negative thing. There are statements such as "he who walks in darkness does not know where he goes", "open their eyes so they may turn from darkness to light, from the dominion of Satan to God", "let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light", "what fellowship has light with darkness?", "for you were formerly darkness, but now you are light in the Lord", "we are not of night nor darkness", and "you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light." In account of these verses, and many more, I got the impression that darkness, in the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church, is equated with evil, or at least with "bad". They can't let them be together, since dark and light are always shown as exclusive to each other. But that's just the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church's take on darkness.

What's your take on darkness? How do you define it?

Deoridhe

I feel the need to expand on why I'm uneasy with claims of an objective evil which humans can identify.

In my experience and to my knwoledge, the claim of "X is evil" is almost always closely followed by "let's destroy/control/erradicate/etc... the evil". Now, if the people were right then perhaps this would be fine, but again to my knowledge and in my experience people aren't right. Mob phenomena such as the witch hunts, the Satanic Ritual Abuse Cults, and so on are hugely destructive, not just in terms of the people tortured and killed over them but also in terms of the rents they leave in the fabric of civilization. I don't mean civilization in terms of community, but rather in terms of a conduct of behavior which seeks truth and right action toward both the self and the other (I can clarify further if you'd like).

In my view, civilized people don't burn people at the stake after a trumped up trial. They don't invade other countries claiming their deity told them to. They don't torture their prisoners. Labelling the people to be burned, the citizens of the other country, and the prisoners as "evil" makes it a whole lot easier to justify mistreatment, though. That human tendency makes me both very nervous and very sad.

You don't have to clarify further. I totally understand your position. It makes a lot of sense.
I personally am okay with objective evil, because I would never act like that. I don't think,"eradicating the evil" is done by means of being mean, harmful, or unjust. I basically leave "eradicating the evil" up to God. Besides that, there's not much I can say except, good point.

Fiddlers Green

SoundDoctrine

So, how do you personally tell what's the objective good and the objective evil? Is there a way to see past the conceptual realm, or can you never tell?

Well, beyound Gnosis, tis very difficult.
However, as Concepts, they don't exist directly in the physical world.
The perceptual world is not the conceptual world... concepts have shadows or echos in the perceptual world, but are not exactly the same.
All cookies are cookies... regardless of whether they are peanut butter or snickerdoodle... However, these cookies are also peanut butter, or cinnamon, or anyother concepts, rolled together.
Thus Cookie (the concept) becomes far more complicated in the perceptual cookies we have out here.
And unlike cookies, generally speaking, one cannot see, smell, hear, taste, or touch evil... muchless Evil.
It is a concept which has expressions, oft in actions, but not so much in physical objects, making it even harder to percieve.

Wow, that's deep. I think I get what you're saying though. It makes sense to me.

Fiddlers Green

Tea, wanna go into just a bit more detail there?
Do you mean they aren't diametricly opposed, or that they are not, between the two of them, all encompassing? sweatdrop

Are you talking to me in the last question, or to Tea?

phoenix shadowwolf

Cuchullain

I think that they don't think they're evil. My Gods are pretty non forthcoming on the matter, "they have their reasons" is what it amounts to. Balor, for example.

and this is the reason why i don't believe in "good" and "evil", added that they can be purely subjective.

while, yes, i can agree there are some pretty, uh, "interesting" beings that are not necessarily looking out for the betterment of other beings, some in particular specifically gunning for certain beings, i cannot call them evil. harmful to my way of life, or my living in general, yes.

labelling one "good" and "evil", for me, denotes that one has a higher moral standing than the other. something i am loathe to do, for if ever my morals change, whole definitions and associations are whirlwinded about.

Oh, okay. I understand that.  

[Fiddlers Green]

SoundDoctrine

Wow, that's deep. I think I get what you're saying though. It makes sense to me.

I'm glad that worked...
I often find it very difficult to express that particular idea.

SoundDoctrine

Fiddlers Green

Tea, wanna go into just a bit more detail there?
Do you mean they aren't diametricly opposed, or that they are not, between the two of them, all encompassing? sweatdrop

Are you talking to me in the last question, or to Tea?

Ah, sorry, that one was Aimed at Tea. 3nodding
I response to her statement regarding dualism. 3nodding  

[ketchakik]

good and evil don't really concern me a lot religiously speaking....it's not that i don't acknowledge them it's just..they are beyond the scope of my calling..  

[Boadicia]

Cuchullain

Boadicia

I personally don't believe in evil gods. After all, we're doing a bad enough job without them.

Ah wow, where to start.
I believe that there are Gods that are pretty much evil.
I think that they don't think they're evil. My Gods are pretty non forthcoming on the matter, "they have their reasons" is what it amounts to. Balor, for example.
Whether or not they are evil is irrelevant. The problem I have is with your reasoning. We're doing a bad enough job of it, so there are no evil Gods? That's not a very good reason to not believe in evil Gods.
There are enough trees, so I don't believe in tree Gods?

What I mean is, from my own religious point of view, evil performed by humans should be blamed on the human who did it rather than an outside force. Whether or not a person believes in evil entities depends on that person's religious beliefs.  

[spaceprincess18]

SoundDoctrine

spaceprincess18

I'm not sure about the existence of evil. I have a difficult time seing it as a concrete thing, because everyone's definition is different. I think people can make poor choices, or do "bad" things, but I don't think that cements proof of evil. I think that just proves that we are human, and that we are here to learn.
I also feel that "dark" does not equal "evil." I think there has to be a balance, Without dark, there would be no light. I think everyone should be aware of, in touch with, and comfortable about their darker side, and equating the word dark with the word evil prevents that from happening.

I guess I should've gone more into depth of what I meant when I said,"darkness". See, in the context of my religion, we can have light without darkness because our light is the light of Christ within us. The light of Christ automatically expels the darkness (see John 8:12). I equated darkness with evil because that is how it's treated within my religion. It's viewed as a negative thing. There are statements such as "he who walks in darkness does not know where he goes", "open their eyes so they may turn from darkness to light, from the dominion of Satan to God", "let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light", "what fellowship has light with darkness?", "for you were formerly darkness, but now you are light in the Lord", "we are not of night nor darkness", and "you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light." In account of these verses, and many more, I got the impression that darkness, in my religion, is equated with evil, or at least with "bad". We can't let them be together, since they're always shown as exclusive to each other. But that's just my religion's take on darkness.

What's your take on darkness? How do you define it?

You say in the context of your religion, which solidifies my statement that it is subjective. I don't think something can exist in a concrete manner when there is no concrete definition or view of it.

Darkness, to me, is just like I said it was. A neceesary balance in ourselves that allows the light within us to exist. I think that anyone who denies their own dark corners is in the same hand denying the purity of their light places.
How can you be sure you are really acting in light when you don't have a contrast to compare it to? If you have no inner guideline to your darker desires (and why one usually shouldn't act on them) then you can't be sure that your desires stemming from light aren't laced with the darker desires.
Having darker desires is not bad, it's acting on them in ways that infringe upon others is bad. Acknowledging and recognising your darker desires is a good thing.  

[Sound Doxa]

ketchakik

good and evil don't really concern me a lot religiously speaking....it's not that i don't acknowledge them it's just..they are beyond the scope of my calling..

That's understandable.

spaceprincess18

SoundDoctrine

spaceprincess18

I'm not sure about the existence of evil. I have a difficult time seing it as a concrete thing, because everyone's definition is different. I think people can make poor choices, or do "bad" things, but I don't think that cements proof of evil. I think that just proves that we are human, and that we are here to learn.
I also feel that "dark" does not equal "evil." I think there has to be a balance, Without dark, there would be no light. I think everyone should be aware of, in touch with, and comfortable about their darker side, and equating the word dark with the word evil prevents that from happening.

I guess I should've gone more into depth of what I meant when I said,"darkness". See, in the context of my religion, we can have light without darkness because our light is the light of Christ within us. The light of Christ automatically expels the darkness (see John 8:12). I equated darkness with evil because that is how it's treated within my religion. It's viewed as a negative thing. There are statements such as "he who walks in darkness does not know where he goes", "open their eyes so they may turn from darkness to light, from the dominion of Satan to God", "let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light", "what fellowship has light with darkness?", "for you were formerly darkness, but now you are light in the Lord", "we are not of night nor darkness", and "you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light." In account of these verses, and many more, I got the impression that darkness, in my religion, is equated with evil, or at least with "bad". We can't let them be together, since they're always shown as exclusive to each other. But that's just my religion's take on darkness.

What's your take on darkness? How do you define it?

You say in the context of your religion, which solidifies my statement that it is subjective. I don't think something can exist in a concrete manner when there is no concrete definition or view of it.

I can understand that.

spaceprincess18

Darkness, to me, is just like I said it was. A necessary balance in ourselves that allows the light within us to exist. I think that anyone who denies their own dark corners is in the same hand denying the purity of their light places.
How can you be sure you are really acting in light when you don't have a contrast to compare it to? If you have no inner guideline to your darker desires (and why one usually shouldn't act on them) then you can't be sure that your desires stemming from light aren't laced with the darker desires.
Having darker desires is not bad, it's acting on them in ways that infringe upon others is bad. Acknowledging and recognising your darker desires is a good thing.

Oh okay, I didn't get all of that from your original post. Thank you very much for your clarification.  

[TeaDidikai]

Fiddlers Green

Tea, wanna go into just a bit more detail there?
Do you mean they aren't diametricly opposed, or that they are not, between the two of them, all encompassing? sweatdrop

Yes.
That is to say- both of the options you mention are correct within my world view.

I risk sidetracking the conversation too far with my own (very personal) theology.

As for them not being all encompassing, this is a very deep foundation for me as well. A theme of both apathetic neutrality and the "Advocate of your Uncertainty" speak to my cultural awareness and myself as an individual very very deeply.  

[Pelta]

SoundDoctrine

In regards to the questions, "How can there be objective good or evil when the circumstances change based on the viewpoint" and "Where can you draw the line?"
Really, I was wondering if any religion within Paganism might've had guidelines for these sort of things, like how Christianity has guidelines. I was wondering if the religions themselves said,"such and such is evil".

I have yet to hear of anything in my practise labelled as specifically "evil." There are unpleasant things and unpleasant places but that doesn't make them evil. Just opposing.

Lots of things are set in motion by opposing forces. Like a soccer ball. Something unpleasant that pushes against you may set you in the direction you need to go. Calling it "evil" would not be fair as it may have had good consequences.

You can learn a lot from being in a nasty place.