the term "eclectic"

[TeaDidikai]

crystal_raye

Okay, whatever. To each his own.

Yay to not having to critically analyze the contests issued to your hasty generalizations!  

[Neko_Bast]

Befor I got into Paganism the only thing I heard eclectic refered to was someone who had a wide variety of inerests/hobies....... biggrin Now I see it every where, and only about 80% of the time are they really eclectic and not just beginers who don't know better.  

[TeaDidikai]

Neko_Bast

Now I see it every where, and only about 80% of the time are they really eclectic and not just beginers who don't know better.

That's generous. I would have it was flipped.  

[DruidWitch82]

I consider myself eclectic, so of course, I have no problem with it, as long as someone who is eclectic is putting forth effort to understand the contexts of the practices they're adapting.

For example, take my own path: I am Pagan with Wiccan, Druid(neo-Druid if you will), and Thelemic leanings. I am also a member of the Unitarian Universalist organization. So far I have been drawn to the Celtic pantheon, and I like many of neo-Druid practices. Therefore, I am learning more about modern-day Druidry to make sure I understand its history and practices better before I incorporate a large amount of it into my path. I tried Wicca for awhile, but after I learned more about its history and branches, etc., I decided that the religion itself doesn't fit me as a whole, yet a small part of its beliefs and practices(ritual formats and Book of Shadows, for example) resonate with me, so I draw from that with respect to what I know of it. Same with Thelema - some of its basic outlooks on life and other people, I agree with, so I'm learning more about it to decide just *how much* I agree with it. Personally, I don't see that as culture-rape; I see it as drawing from aspects of a religion that are similar to what you already believe anyway, while undergoing the learning process to understand the culture(s) that religion or tradition is coming from.  

[spaceprincess18]

I'm not sure how I feel about the subject. One one hand, I could be called eclectic because I have many beliefs that stem from different religions, but I hesitate to call myself any one of those, because I don't follow any of them completely. On the other, I'd hardly call what I have done "culture rape" because of it.  

[Pelta]

insanedramatic

Personally, I don't see that as culture-rape; I see it as drawing from aspects of a religion that are similar to what you already believe anyway, while undergoing the learning process to understand the culture(s) that religion or tradition is coming from.

You don't see stealing from Celtic mythology and beliefs as culture rape? You also don't see Druidism as something distinctly Celtic that died out several hundred years ago?

Druids were a caste of lawgivers in ancient Celtic times. They do not exist, their practises were completely wiped out by Christian invaders and cannot be reconstructed because they never wrote anything down. Anything that has been recently marketed as "Druid" or even "Neo-Druid" is completly fabricated.

Also, context is key. It may work to understand and encorporate some of these practises, yet some of them also lose meaning when removed from their theology. Ie. Using Ogham in a Thelemite ceremony would be simply ridiculous. I just hope you understand the implications of what you're attempting.

I tend to take Eclecticism somewhat further. I am not Eclectic. I do not borrow from many different cultures and practises. I do not follow any specific dogma. I create a practise that resonates with myself personally. In many Eclectics I have met this is the goal behind what they're attempting; they just look in the wrong place. Instead of relying on themselves and personal UPG they take bits from everywhere and attempt to fit them together like pieces of a jigsaw from several different puzzles. Although you may get a bloody pretty picture doing so, the original context and goal of the pieces is lost.  

[DruidWitch82]

Pelta

You don't see stealing from Celtic mythology and beliefs as culture rape? You also don't see Druidism as something distinctly Celtic that died out several hundred years ago?

Well, if I believe those things as well, how is it culture rape, just because I don't live in one of the ancient Celtic regions? Cultures are always mixed and absorbed, including today. The only difference, to me, is that now, with our technology, we have the means to actively *choose* what to absorb and learn and respect where it comes from.

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Druids were a caste of lawgivers in ancient Celtic times. They do not exist, their practises were completely wiped out by Christian invaders and cannot be reconstructed because they never wrote anything down. Anything that has been recently marketed as "Druid" or even "Neo-Druid" is completly fabricated.

Yes, I know this. However, what modern-day 'Druids' do(from what I've seen so far) has meaning with me anyways. Just because it's new, doesn't make it wrong or bad smile And actually, from what I've read, most decent Druid authors acknowledge very quickly that there is very little known about the ancient Druids.

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Also, context is key. It may work to understand and encorporate some of these practises, yet some of them also lose meaning when removed from their theology. Ie. Using Ogham in a Thelemite ceremony would be simply ridiculous. I just hope you understand the implications of what you're attempting.

I agree. I am eclectic in my *beliefs*, not necessarily my rituals. If I'm gonna do a ritual in which I call upon Brigid, for example, I will only call Celtic pantheons and follow the ritual in a Celtic format. If I want to do a Thelemite ritual, I will do so using *only* Thelemic elements. I agree that one shouldn't mix multiple sources within one working.

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I tend to take Eclecticism somewhat further. I am not Eclectic. I do not borrow from many different cultures and practises. I do not follow any specific dogma. I create a practise that resonates with myself personally. In many Eclectics I have met this is the goal behind what they're attempting; they just look in the wrong place. Instead of relying on themselves and personal UPG they take bits from everywhere and attempt to fit them together like pieces of a jigsaw from several different puzzles. Although you may get a bloody pretty picture doing so, the original context and goal of the pieces is lost.

True. I tend to incorporate in one of three ways:
(1)I find out something I already believe, and learn about paths that have similar outlooks on it, and incorporate it into my own path.

(2)I think of a culture I like, and learn more about it, and if I see something I really like, then I incorporate it into my faith, with as much respect to the original culture as I can at this stage in my faith.

(3)I hear of a path that intrigues me, learn about it, and if enough of it really sticks with me, I incorporate it into my path(again, with as much respect to its original context as possible).

In all of the above, the pieces that I incorporate are usually things that either I already believed deep inside anyways, or are otherwise something that has always resonated with me.  

[Pelta]

insanedramatic

Well, if I believe those things as well, how is it culture rape, just because I don't live in one of the ancient Celtic regions? Cultures are always mixed and absorbed, including today. The only difference, to me, is that now, with our technology, we have the means to actively *choose* what to absorb and learn and respect where it comes from.

You mean you actively pick out puzzle pieces from other boxes? Why not try to recreate the whole puzzle first to see what it looks like before taking out the individual pieces?

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However, what modern-day 'Druids' do(from what I've seen so far) has meaning with me anyways. Just because it's new, doesn't make it wrong or bad smile And actually, from what I've read, most decent Druid authors acknowledge very quickly that there is very little known about the ancient Druids.

Then why insist on the title?

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True. I tend to incorporate in one of three ways:
(1)I find out something I already believe, and learn about paths that have similar outlooks on it, and incorporate it into my own path.

Why not the other way around?

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(2)I think of a culture I like, and learn more about it, and if I see something I really like, then I incorporate it into my faith, with as much respect to the original culture as I can at this stage in my faith.

Why would "liking" a culture have anything to do with your religious choices?

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(3)I hear of a path that intrigues me, learn about it, and if enough of it really sticks with me, I incorporate it into my path(again, with as much respect to its original context as possible).

This makes a little more sense, if only for the fact that the learning part comes before the attraction. In the other two examples it was implied you would set out to find what you were looking for, ("A man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest") in this there is some measure of investigation and experimentation before assimilation.

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In all of the above, the pieces that I incorporate are usually things that either I already believed deep inside anyways, or are otherwise something that has always resonated with me.

But if something's always resonated with you, why go looking somewhere else in the first place? wink  

[Fiddlers Green]

There is a question to be made tho...
When does historical context bleed over into eclecticism?
Is it possible, that while attempting to generate historically correct reconstructions, one might also recreate errors from history?
Cultural exchange can happen, and some traditions which were culturaly signifigant to a religion may have been the result of bleed over or influence from other religions/cultures.
Is reconstructing these ancient eclecticisms appropriate, or would it even be considered eclectic?
If not, then does age and acceptance change what is to be considered dogmatically correct...?
Even if it is scripturally, or philosophically inconsistent with the fullness of the faith?  

[DruidWitch82]

Pelta

insanedramatic

Well, if I believe those things as well, how is it culture rape, just because I don't live in one of the ancient Celtic regions? Cultures are always mixed and absorbed, including today. The only difference, to me, is that now, with our technology, we have the means to actively *choose* what to absorb and learn and respect where it comes from.

You mean you actively pick out puzzle pieces from other boxes? Why not try to recreate the whole puzzle first to see what it looks like before taking out the individual pieces?

I suppose I'm trying to do both. I love to read, and learn,when I can, and so if I waited until I learned *everything* I could about a culture before I incorporated it, I would never put anything into actual practice.

insanedramatic

However, what modern-day 'Druids' do(from what I've seen so far) has meaning with me anyways. Just because it's new, doesn't make it wrong or bad smile And actually, from what I've read, most decent Druid authors acknowledge very quickly that there is very little known about the ancient Druids.

Pelta

Then why insist on the title?

Good question, and that's part of why I don't call myself Druid. I simply say I'm Pagan, and if asked about more details I'll mention that I have Druidic influence in my path.

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True. I tend to incorporate in one of three ways:
(1)I find out something I already believe, and learn about paths that have similar outlooks on it, and incorporate it into my own path.

Pelta

Why not the other way around?

Clarification, please?

Quote:

(2)I think of a culture I like, and learn more about it, and if I see something I really like, then I incorporate it into my faith, with as much respect to the original culture as I can at this stage in my faith.

Pelta

Why would "liking" a culture have anything to do with your religious choices?

Well, to an extent, only that if I 'like' a culture, I'm more drawn to learn about it. I like many aspects of Celtic culture, so I'm more personally inclined to try to learn more about it, than say, ancient Greek, which I'm not personally as attracted to. Therefore, my likes influences my religious practices in that effect.

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(3)I hear of a path that intrigues me, learn about it, and if enough of it really sticks with me, I incorporate it into my path(again, with as much respect to its original context as possible).

Pelta

This makes a little more sense, if only for the fact that the learning part comes before the attraction. In the other two examples it was implied you would set out to find what you were looking for, ("A man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest") in this there is some measure of investigation and experimentation before assimilation.

I think I do the investigation/experimentation and assimilation kind of simultaneously. For example, I know the Celtic and Wiccan influences on my personal path will probably be permanent, because I enjoy learning about them and their practices. However, the Thelema influence is still in the experimentation phase - I know the basics of it that resonate with me, so I'm learning more about it and 'trying it out', including learning from 'full-on' Thelemites, to see how I feel about it.

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In all of the above, the pieces that I incorporate are usually things that either I already believed deep inside anyways, or are otherwise something that has always resonated with me.

Pelta

But if something's always resonated with you, why go looking somewhere else in the first place? wink

Well, partly because I'm also working on 'deprogramming' myself from my Fundamentalist Christian upbringing. I have a good idea of my religious *beliefs*, but the only religious *practices* I'm familiar with are those that I learned from my days as a Christian, the ones that my family taught me. In learning about these various paths and cultures, I am also looking for practices of my own, to replace the Christian practices with Pagan practices more meaningful to me - or at least supplementing the more secularized Christian ones(i.e. I still will celebrate Christmas as a secular holiday) with more meaningful religious ones. Does that make sense?  

[TeaDidikai]

Fiddlers Green

There is a question to be made tho...
When does historical context bleed over into eclecticism?
Is it possible, that while attempting to generate historically correct reconstructions, one might also recreate errors from history?
Cultural exchange can happen, adn some traditions which were culturaly signifigant to a religion may have been the result of bleed over or influence from other religions/cultures.
Is reconstructing these ancient eclecticisms appropriate, or would it even be considered eclectic?
If not, then does age and acceptance change what is to be considered dogmatically correct...?
Even if it is scripturally, or philosophically inconsistent with the fullness of the faith?

I would say it is up to how xenophobic the culture is and was.

For example, what is considered to be the core of the ethnicity I am closest to has an active practice of wearing local customs on their sleeves and doing other things at home. My Baba being a great example of this.

She and I are the same kind of Christian. wink  

[Fiddlers Green]

TeaDidikai

I would say it is up to how xenophobic the culture is and was.

For example, what is considered to be the core of the ethnicity I am closest to has an active practice of wearing local customs on their sleeves and doing other things at home. My Baba being a great example of this.

She and I are the same kind of Christian. wink

Ah, so, and I'm not saying it;s valid, but just that it could come up in the future...
The research most people would be able to do on your ethnicity's practices would be completely false, the result of what is worn publicly as a matter of corse, rather than what is actually practiced...
Also, in many areas ranging from Rome and it's rather amusing take on many people's dieties, Persia and her almost open door policy to religious exchange, adn the melting pot that happened in the Indus river area, it does offer some blur between historically accurate, and theologically sound.
Beyound that, I'm still trying to sort out distinct religions amongst Slavic peoples... while some seem very different, others only seem to vary in names given to Dieties. confused  

[Pelta]

insanedramatic

I suppose I'm trying to do both. I love to read, and learn,when I can, and so if I waited until I learned *everything* I could about a culture before I incorporated it, I would never put anything into actual practice.

Is that really such a problem?

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True. I tend to incorporate in one of three ways:
(1)I find out something I already believe, and learn about paths that have similar outlooks on it, and incorporate it into my own path.

Pelta

Why not the other way around?

Clarification, please?

Why not learn about the full path then see if what you've borrowed is similar to what you believe? And for that matter, why would you go looking somewhere else anyway after you've already found out what you believe?

At the moment what you've posted sounds a bit like, "I believe A. I'm going to google A and subscribe to every blog it pops up in. Then I'm going to take the bits that reference A from each and squish them together on my weblog. Then I will have acheived A."

Do you see how this can be a tad backwards? If it's something you already believe, why go looking anywhere else in the first place?

insanedramatic

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In all of the above, the pieces that I incorporate are usually things that either I already believed deep inside anyways, or are otherwise something that has always resonated with me.

Pelta

But if something's always resonated with you, why go looking somewhere else in the first place? wink

Well, partly because I'm also working on 'deprogramming' myself from my Fundamentalist Christian upbringing. I have a good idea of my religious *beliefs*, but the only religious *practices* I'm familiar with are those that I learned from my days as a Christian, the ones that my family taught me.

Why so much emphasis on "practise?"

I'm still a bit confused on what you're actually attempting. Do you already have a theological belief system and are attempting to flesh it out with ceremonies from other cultures? Or do you have a vague idea of your beliefs and are looking for validation and ways of believing from different cultures?  

[DruidWitch82]

Pelta

insanedramatic

I suppose I'm trying to do both. I love to read, and learn,when I can, and so if I waited until I learned *everything* I could about a culture before I incorporated it, I would never put anything into actual practice.

Is that really such a problem?

Well, for me at the time, yes. Part of what I've been looking for in my religious seeking is a way to incorporate my spirituality into my everyday life.

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True. I tend to incorporate in one of three ways:
(1)I find out something I already believe, and learn about paths that have similar outlooks on it, and incorporate it into my own path.

Pelta

Why not the other way around?

Clarification, please?

Why not learn about the full path then see if what you've borrowed is similar to what you believe? And for that matter, why would you go looking somewhere else anyway after you've already found out what you believe?

At the moment what you've posted sounds a bit like, "I believe A. I'm going to google A and subscribe to every blog it pops up in. Then I'm going to take the bits that reference A from each and squish them together on my weblog. Then I will have acheived A."

Do you see how this can be a tad backwards? If it's something you already believe, why go looking anywhere else in the first place?

I'm just telling you where I am now. When I first started looking into Paganism, I was coming from conservative Christianity. I *didn't* know what I believed at that time, and I am always questioning and evaluating my beliefs, although I do have a clearer idea now than I did then. Of course I'm not just trying to find things from every culture that fit 'A', as you put it. Anytime I draw an idea for a practice(i.e. a certain holiday ritual that appeals to me), I try to learn the history and other meanings behind it first, before I decide to continue.

insanedramatic

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In all of the above, the pieces that I incorporate are usually things that either I already believed deep inside anyways, or are otherwise something that has always resonated with me.

Pelta

But if something's always resonated with you, why go looking somewhere else in the first place? wink

Well, partly because I'm also working on 'deprogramming' myself from my Fundamentalist Christian upbringing. I have a good idea of my religious *beliefs*, but the only religious *practices* I'm familiar with are those that I learned from my days as a Christian, the ones that my family taught me.

Why so much emphasis on "practise?"

I'm still a bit confused on what you're actually attempting. Do you already have a theological belief system and are attempting to flesh it out with ceremonies from other cultures? Or do you have a vague idea of your beliefs and are looking for validation and ways of believing from different cultures?

Like I said, I have a clearer idea now, but I'm always evaluating my beliefs. I have certain beliefs pertaining to how I view Deity(although I *am* kind of re-evaluating it there), the supernatural, how I treat others, etc. What Paganism has brought me to, among other things, is a way to express my spirituality in everyday life - something I never fully did in Christianity, because once I got old enough and brave enough to question my beliefs, I realized I didn't quite believe the Christian doctrine I was raised in. I suppose I will break down my beliefs to clarify better:

When I say my path has Wiccan influence, it means that I like the format Wiccans use for rituals and spells- their method of casting a circle, etc. I also have a Book of Shadows to keep up with all of my correspondences, spells, etc.

When I say it has 'neo-Druidic' and Celtic influence, it means that, out of all the pantheons I've studied(which admittedly at this point aren't many yet), I am drawn to the Celtic pantheon, and am learning more about that set of deities and the culture of which they are born.

What I like about Thelema is that it's view on the purposefulness of all people and their right to do what they will, is something that I agree with. So, while not totally Thelemic(and also not having much Thelemic influence in my path yet), what I'm doing now, is experimenting with Thelema and learning more about it, to *find out* if it's a direction I want to go, or if its appeal ends at that one detail.

I'm not sure how else exactly to explain it to help you understand my P.O.V. better, without knowing a little more about how you view God(s), etc., yourself.  

[Pelta]

insanedramatic

I'm not sure how else exactly to explain it to help you understand my P.O.V. better, without knowing a little more about how you view God(s), etc., yourself.

I do have a Pathways thread, y'know. wink

Actually, your clarification cleared up quite a lot. You've admitted you don't actually know what you believe. That's alright. That's perfectly fine. In fact, all beliefs are likely to continue changing and evolving.

Experimentation is good. It's when the experimentation turns into culture rape that it becomes dangerous.

What you're saying is that you don't know. You're a seeker, looking for whatever fits, trying out different styles. Really you're only just beginning to find your legs, looking for them in every place you find attractive. Sure. Just remember that what you learn comes from a greater tradition and may be completely useless to you. Very often it's the learning about it that is far more important than the practises you pick up. Hell, that stuff's easy. It's the thinking about stuff that hurts.

Thinking about stuff and getting your mind straight is even more important than petty traditions and ceremonies. Picking up traditions will mean nothing without your personal background to peg them on. Sure, continue researching and trying things out to see what fits. Just remember they're pointless when devoid of meaning.

Good luck finding what fits, but be careful. You could offend a lot of people by calling yourself a Neo-Druid with Thelemic and Wiccan influences. wink