Need help with my tarot studies

[TeaDidikai]

missmagpie

I find that idea very confusing myself. I can't see Queens as Air no matter how hard I try. The Queen of cups has to be Water of Water to me. Whether or not there's any actual backing for it, I think Queens have to embody the feminine. Air just doesn't cut it for me. Then if Queens are water it just makes sense that the Kings should be Fire. But then I may just be talking out of my a**. The way I was taught just makes so much more sense to me.

Oops. Sorry.

See- if we are going this route- knights must be fire.

Fire as both sexuality and spirituality embody the young man well- here's why:

If I need to explain why in a general psychological sense Young men embody sexuality, it's time to go back to Sex Ed 101.
But young men to embody the spiritual aspect of fire makes sense as well- in so much that many traditions acknowledged teen boys as the state of spiritual flux and raw potential. This is reflected in many rites of passage that were traditionally spiritual in nature and reserved for young men. The Jewish, the Heida (and likely many other First Nation tribes), the Rroma, the Norse and a host of other cultures held this position and through ritual directed it.  

[Pelta]

TeaDidikai

See- if we are going this route- knights must be fire.

Going by a similar route, knights also can be air.

For knights wield the sword, which in the rest of the tarot is associated with air. The presence of the horse implies some sort of quest or journey, another aspect also associated with air. Finally, the idea of the young man improving intellectually and growing to knight/kinghood is also under the domain of air.

As for the sexual part, if queens are going to be water and embody the feminine, shouldn't her partner balance her energy with the masculine fire? At least then he'd be her equal in bed... Then at their coupling, fire and water makes air and earth (steam and ashes, supposedly), which would compensate for the attribution of air to the knights and earth to the pages.

Wasn't it Crowley who called knights princes and pages princesses?  

[TeaDidikai]

missmagpie

TeaDidikai

See- if we are going this route- knights must be fire.

Going by a similar route, knights also can be air.

For knights wield the sword, which in the rest of the tarot is associated with air.

So do most historical Kings, a number of Historical Queens, and so on. If we are going by what people armed themselves with...

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The presence of the horse implies some sort of quest or journey, another aspect also associated with air.

Never seen quest/journy universally tied to air.

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Finally, the idea of the young man improving intellectually and growing to knight/kinghood is also under the domain of air.

Which is better suited to a page being trained within the court in hopes they might earn recognition for their service and rise in position to become a knight.

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As for the sexual part, if queens are going to be water and embody the feminine, shouldn't her partner balance her energy with the masculine fire?

I wouldn't consider water to "balance" fire. But even such being the case, the sexual initation mythos is very popular in many cultures.

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At least then he'd be her equal in bed... Then at their coupling, fire and water makes air and earth (steam and ashes, supposedly), which would compensate for the attribution of air to the knights and earth to the pages.

Or not. The idea of a perfect equal in sexual exchange isn't a historically popular one. From Jewish mythology to Chinese selfmastery practices, "equality" isn't a factor.

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Wasn't it Crowley who called knights princes and pages princesses?

Indeed.  

[Pelta]

TeaDidikai

missmagpie

TeaDidikai

See- if we are going this route- knights must be fire.

Going by a similar route, knights also can be air.

For knights wield the sword, which in the rest of the tarot is associated with air.

So do most historical Kings, a number of Historical Queens, and so on. If we are going by what people armed themselves with...

Er. I was going by what the card arms itself with. But of course that would depend on the deck and what pictures you have.

TeaDidikai

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The presence of the horse implies some sort of quest or journey, another aspect also associated with air.

Never seen quest/journy universally tied to air.

Neither have I, yet I never stated it was universal. The attributions of qualities to elements can be rather subjective depending on your practise, and your statement of fire being linked to the youthful male spirituality has as much backing as air being linked to epic journeys. We would have to choose a specific interpretation of the elemental attributes for this to work on an objective level.

TeaDidikai

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Finally, the idea of the young man improving intellectually and growing to knight/kinghood is also under the domain of air.

Which is better suited to a page being trained within the court in hopes they might earn recognition for their service and rise in position to become a knight.

I've always seen the pages as children, those who might be a bit naiive but are protected by their innocence. Sort of. And sometimes somewhat stubborn/stupid depending on the surrounding cards. That makes sense to me as being earth. I don't subscribe to any specific interpretation of the elements that say otherwise.

TeaDidikai

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As for the sexual part, if queens are going to be water and embody the feminine, shouldn't her partner balance her energy with the masculine fire?

I wouldn't consider water to "balance" fire. But even such being the case, the sexual initation mythos is very popular in many cultures.

Sorry, could you clarify this please?

TeaDidikai

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At least then he'd be her equal in bed... Then at their coupling, fire and water makes air and earth (steam and ashes, supposedly), which would compensate for the attribution of air to the knights and earth to the pages.

Or not. The idea of a perfect equal in sexual exchange isn't a historically popular one. From Jewish mythology to Chinese selfmastery practices, "equality" isn't a factor.

Fair enough. But who is to say that the Chinese or Jewish mystic theologies have any part to play in her interpretation of the tarot?  

[Boadicia]

Wow! Going back through this, there is a lot of stuff to consider and sort through. One interpretation I came by related life stages and masculine/feminine qualities, such as the page being youthful innocence, the knight being energy and drive, the queen being awareness and sensitivity, and the king being strength of will. I've tried to place these in some old practice readings I recorded, but I find it helpful to apply the cards as representing people who represent said qualities.  

[TeaDidikai]

missmagpie

Er. I was going by what the card arms itself with. But of course that would depend on the deck and what pictures you have.

I see. Yes, it would depend upon the deck- since my favorite generic deck has all the knights "armed" with the "weapon" of their suit.

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Neither have I, yet I never stated it was universal. The attributions of qualities to elements can be rather subjective depending on your practise, and your statement of fire being linked to the youthful male spirituality has as much backing as air being linked to epic journeys. We would have to choose a specific interpretation of the elemental attributes for this to work on an objective level.

Except- it doesn't. I was citing historical anthropological observations. I really have no idea where your assertion that Air = Epic Journey comes from.

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TeaDidikai

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Finally, the idea of the young man improving intellectually and growing to knight/kinghood is also under the domain of air.

Which is better suited to a page being trained within the court in hopes they might earn recognition for their service and rise in position to become a knight.

I've always seen the pages as children, those who might be a bit naiive but are protected by their innocence. Sort of. And sometimes somewhat stubborn/stupid depending on the surrounding cards. That makes sense to me as being earth. I don't subscribe to any specific interpretation of the elements that say otherwise.

But even as children, there is a theme of potential, the point of which is growth.

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TeaDidikai

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As for the sexual part, if queens are going to be water and embody the feminine, shouldn't her partner balance her energy with the masculine fire?

I wouldn't consider water to "balance" fire. But even such being the case, the sexual initiation mythos is very popular in many cultures.

Sorry, could you clarify this please?

Off the top of my head, I can think of seven different cultures that have an initiation mythos that stems from a powerful woman taking an inexperienced young man to bed. I'd list them off the top of my head, but spell check hates mythology. The Celts, the Greeks, the Brits, the Rroma, the Slavs, the Japanese and Chinese etc... all have pivotal mythos that involve this sexual initiation mythos.

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Fair enough. But who is to say that the Chinese or Jewish mystic theologies have any part to play in her interpretation of the tarot?

My statement was to imply that it went beyond two cultures- to a great many.  

[Pelta]

TeaDidikai

I really have no idea where your assertion that Air = Epic Journey comes from.

Neither do I. Maybe I'll just let that one go. UPG can be a b*****d to try and back up. sweatdrop

TeaDidikai

But even as children, there is a theme of potential, the point of which is growth.

And this can also be shown as earth. Earth can represent growth and potential.

TeaDidikai

Off the top of my head, I can think of seven different cultures that have an initiation mythos that stems from a powerful woman taking an inexperienced young man to bed. I'd list them off the top of my head, but spell check hates mythology. The Celts, the Greeks, the Brits, the Rroma, the Slavs, the Japanese and Chinese etc... all have pivotal mythos that involve this sexual initiation mythos.

I see. But I don't see how this should really effect how someone attributes elements to the tarot. I don't subscribe to any of these cultures. Why should I bring this alien idea of sexual initiation to my interpretation of the tarot? I have yet to see it hold any significance in my experiences.

TeaDidikai

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Fair enough. But who is to say that the Chinese or Jewish mystic theologies have any part to play in her interpretation of the tarot?

My statement was to imply that it went beyond two cultures- to a great many.

I'm not too big on my fallacies, but is that appeal to popularity? Anyway this isn't M&R. Again my argument stands. A great many cultures may have absolutely no sway over someone. A sexual initiation mythos does not exist in my practise.  

[TeaDidikai]

missmagpie

TeaDidikai

But even as children, there is a theme of potential, the point of which is growth.

And this can also be shown as earth. Earth can represent growth and potential.

Why is the material realm more a function of "potential" considering everything is tangable than the mental realm, the realm of ideas- in which all things are possible and nothing is tangable?

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I see. But I don't see how this should really effect how someone attributes elements to the tarot. I don't subscribe to any of these cultures. Why should I bring this alien idea of sexual initiation to my interpretation of the tarot? I have yet to see it hold any significance in my experiences.

Wasn't aware we were ever talking about how you should.

Further- what I am showing is a crosscultural paradigm with suggestions that it extends even beyond these myths.

You keep applying this to your personal experience. I am addressing the range of "tCU".

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I'm not too big on my fallacies, but is that appeal to popularity? Anyway this isn't M&R. Again my argument stands. A great many cultures may have absolutely no sway over someone. A sexual initiation mythos does not exist in my practise.

You are internalizing my contests too much.

I am saying "This is a generic pattern that exists in many cultures, including the modern US..."

You seem to be saying "I disagree because I have my UPG".
You UPG isn't invalid, it's just yours, and- being UPG, is not universal.  

[Pelta]

TeaDidikai

missmagpie

TeaDidikai

But even as children, there is a theme of potential, the point of which is growth.

And this can also be shown as earth. Earth can represent growth and potential.

Why is the material realm more a function of "potential" considering everything is tangable than the mental realm, the realm of ideas- in which all things are possible and nothing is tangable?

Indeed. Yet in the material realm there is the possibility of the growth of ideas to fruition, whereas in the realm of thought many things may never become tangible. A seed may grow to a full oak tree, an idea may grow into a book. Yet the idea will never see fruition until it enters the material realm.

Thus the material realm is the sphere of achieving potential. The mental is the state of purest unattained potential.

TeaDidikai

You are internalizing my contests too much.

Ah I see the problem here. The counter-arguments I have been bringing up are only valid to my situation, whereas your examples are applicable to a wide variety of cultures. That being the case, I suppose I should let it rest.

TeaDidikai

I am saying "This is a generic pattern that exists in many cultures, including the modern US..."

As a matter of interest, I might put up a small note in my pathways about culture...  

[TeaDidikai]

missmagpie

Indeed. Yet in the material realm there is the possibility of the growth of ideas to fruition, whereas in the realm of thought many things may never become tangible.

Which would make it the realm of conclusion, not of potential.

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an idea may grow into a book. Yet the idea will never see fruition until it enters the material realm.

Thus, the realm of idea is the realm of potential. When the book is written, it becomes material and has finished it's potential.

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Thus the material realm is the sphere of achieving potential.

Wrong tense.  

[Pelta]

TeaDidikai

missmagpie

Indeed. Yet in the material realm there is the possibility of the growth of ideas to fruition, whereas in the realm of thought many things may never become tangible.

Which would make it the realm of conclusion, not of potential.

True, yet ideas are often sparked in the material realm.

TeaDidikai

Thus, the realm of idea is the realm of potential. When the book is written, it becomes material and has finished it's potential.

But what about the tree? The child grows physically in the material realm. Potential and ideas are often determined by material experience.

TeaDidikai

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Thus the material realm is the sphere of achieving potential.

Wrong tense.

Hrm. Perhaps. Yet the existence of potential would be pointless without the manifestation in the material. Thus how the child interacts with Earth indicates his advancement in the mental. He would not be Air without first the rock-hard experience of reality.  

[TeaDidikai]

missmagpie

True, yet ideas are often sparked in the material realm.

Ummmm.... ideas are sparked, by their nature, in a realm of non-corporeal being.

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But what about the tree? The child grows physically in the material realm. Potential and ideas are often determined by material experience.

But in the material realm, the child is a child- not a "potential adult", unless we are going to let infants drive because someday they might be old enough to reach the peddles.

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Hrm. Perhaps. Yet the existence of potential would be pointless without the manifestation in the material.

I completely disagree with this assertion.

Since when does corporeal reality invalidate unfulfilled potential?

Case in point- within my school girl dreams, there is potential for romance with someone I am in love with. Those thoughts make me quite happy and on restless nights send me off to sleep. Not having such a relationship does not invalidate potential, nor does it limit the merits of such ideas.

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Thus how the child interacts with Earth indicates his advancement in the mental. He would not be Air without first the rock-hard experience of reality.

Also contested.

Case in point, my relationship with my husband, my friendship with those at Modicon.

On a most basic level, I connect with individuals on the mental realm before I connect with them on the physical realm.

If I don't appricate the way your thoughts form, you will not be appricated by merely being in my presence.  

[Poisen_Lotus]

For tarot I like the Jungian system, though I haven't done much expirementation with The Kabalitic (sp?) system though I've heard it's good too. The best thing to do is learn the physical and traights and personality traights as these will be most useful in identification. Try and get a "feel" for the archetype and think of where you've meet this person before, sit and meditate with the card for a while and just dive in to them. By lots of books the more the better, and of course use your intuition when interpeting. Just my experiences as a reader, hope it helps heart  

[Annalixa]

Not to necro a thread, but re: the original issue of court cards--I've found the entries on this blog to be quite helpful in terms of making sense of the court cards.

http://78notes.blogspot.com/search/label/The Tarot Court  

[Chibikerichan]

So what are some additional specific examples of the way the Tarot systems differ? I'm seeing some examples, such as which suits are representative of which elements (which explains why I thought I'd learned that swords were fire, then learned they weren't, and thought I'd learned wrong... that's never sat well with me), and which court cards, etc.

I'm also very interested in Kabbalistic Tarot, as I've never encountered this (or Jungian, really) idea before. Does anyone have any reccomended/easily accessible (I live in an ultra-conservative college town) resources for learning about the different systems? And also how to tell what system the resources I have are using.