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 Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:30 pm
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Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:33 pm
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TheDisreputableDog deadmanjake Yeah, I think it all boils down to the fact that the good guy is a wizard. Had he been a lion who kills the evil witch, then there would not have been any problem with it at all. You know, I never realized he wrote Christian books until I read Out of the Silent Planet, Perelandra and That Hideous Strength. Then I went back and read the Narnia books again and it's definitely there.
If I had not known what to look for while watching the movie, then I may not have been able to tell. |
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Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 4:00 pm
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deadmanjake TheDisreputableDog deadmanjake Yeah, I think it all boils down to the fact that the good guy is a wizard. Had he been a lion who kills the evil witch, then there would not have been any problem with it at all. You know, I never realized he wrote Christian books until I read Out of the Silent Planet, Perelandra and That Hideous Strength. Then I went back and read the Narnia books again and it's definitely there. If I had not known what to look for while watching the movie, then I may not have been able to tell.
Guess it wasn't that fantastic after all. |
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Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 4:49 pm
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Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:32 pm
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Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:38 pm
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Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 11:48 pm
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Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 12:26 am
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Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 11:01 am
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deadmanjake Also, a fiction book for Christians has become popular. The lion, the witch, and the wardrobe. With which, if it was not for the popularity of the Harry Potter books, I feel, that it may not have become as highly demanded as it is.
Become popular? The Chronicles of Narnia have been popular for a very long time. There is quite a culture behind them, too, from both the fantasy and Christianity views. There are books analyzing the Christian content, fan groups, etc. and countless animated versions, radio plays and so on. They finally made a live action version Lewis may have been able to approve of (he was vehemently against it during his lifetime, because he thought it would butcher the depiction of Aslan, but we have CGI and so on that he never could've imagined).
And as for it GAINING a Christian interpretation through the movies, that was there the whole time, but kids who aren't raised on that stuff completely miss it. I know I read it as a child as pure fantasy (but then, I would've read the Bible that way too), and on subsequent reads understood the Christian aspects. Most Christians are upset that Disney is cutting the Christian aspects OUT of the movie!
Lewis was a friend of Tolkien, and both were religious, though Lewis, during the first part of his friendship with Tolkien, was an atheist. (He converted, and then wrote the series.) Tolkien was disparaging of Lewis's liberal borrowing from so many culture's mythology; Tolkien was a purist and believed that mythologies should better remain intact. He didn't like Wagner much either, because of the "butchering" he did to Norse mythology with the Ring Cycle.
Other fantasy series that have been popular long before Harry Potter include "Wizard of Earthsea" and "A Wrinkle in Time". And, of course, "Lord of the Rings". If it weren't for these series, Harry Potter likely wouldn't exist. Harry Potter does appeal to a slightly younger crowd than some of these books, however.
And like Harry Potter after them, many had controversy about whether it was okay to read fantasy literature. However, much of the religious fervor about Harry Potter seems to be coming from a new camp, the same one behind a drive for a Christian theocracy in the US.
That aside, Harry Potter has nothing to do with the Pagan religion any more than Lord of the Rings (written by a devote Roman Catholic). That is to say, although it borrows elements and folklore and mythology from various sources, it has pretty much nothing to do with the modern religion. "Witch" and "wizard" are used in a fantasy way (ala mages from Dungeons and Dragons, or something like that), not as a religious title. The characters celebrate Christmas, not a solstice or fire festival or what-have-you pagan ritual.
Although some of Religious Tolerance's articles lean to the Fluffy, I have to agree with their article on this one. I think someone already posted it. |
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Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 11:20 am
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Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 12:23 pm
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missmagpie MoonJeli They finally made a live action version Lewis may have been able to approve of (he was vehemently against it during his lifetime, because he thought it would butcher the depiction of Aslan, but we have CGI and so on that he never could've imagined). So what did you think of the early BBC versions that came out in the 80s? Are you stipulating that he wouldn't have liked the earlier series that came out? I felt the BBC version was far closer to the depiction of the book than the recent film version.
I have no idea if he would've liked the BBC version, he was just adamant that he did NOT want Aslan to be a "puppet" or suit which he was in the BBC version. Whether he would have been okay with the advances in puppetry and animatronics made by the 80s can only be speculated; but he goes on record as fine with animated Aslan depictions, and Aslan is animated in the most recent version. So in terms of what he outright SAID was okay, this is the only live action version that conforms to his requests. Unfortunately we can't get his feedback.
Quote: Quote: He didn't like Wagner much either, because of the "butchering" he did to Norse mythology with the Ring Cycle. Do you have a source for this? I would have thought Tolkein didn't much mind Wagner's interpretation as he later based the Lord of the Rings on it. As far as I know there is no reference to an all-powerful ring in Norse mythology. Wagner just borrowed the gods and structure - the story he created was mostly his own.
Yes, there are many sources. I'd suggest Carpenter's biographies of him to start with.
Tolkien refused to admit that LotR had anything to do with Wagner. He said, "Both rings were round, and there the resemblance ceased," in response to a comparison ("The Ring is in a certain way 'der Niebelungen Ring'") by the translator of the 1961 Swedish translation of the LotR. He was incensed by this comparison and immediately wrote the publisher.
Obviously, it's hard to believe that he wasn't influenced. I personally believe he was. However, many believe that Tolkien also wrote the LotR in rebellion against Wagner's mythology, attempting to save the Nordic myths from improper use. LotR also had influence of the world wars, and Tolkien also lamented the corruption of the "noble Northern spirit" by the Nazis.
The comparison between Tolkien and Wagner is common, if not now gospel, and Tolkien hated it.
Family friend and official biographer Humphrey Carpenter said Tolkien "held in contempt" Wagner's interpretations of the Norse and Germanic sagas. Tolkien was an avowed proponent of preserving the integrity of mythologies. He disagreed with Lewis' mixture of sources (i.e. gryphons hobnobbing with fauns and unicorns and centaurs mixing with dwarves).
He was well-acquainted with Wagner and wrote a study on "Die Walküre" prior to writing his novels. Tolkien and Lewis studied Wagner together in their Kolbitar ("Coal Biters" -- a rude term for men who prefered the warmth of the fire to joining in on the hunt or fight) Club. Tolkien hoped to get some Oxford dons interested in Norse mythology; the club read Norse myths in the original Icelandic. In the second incarnation of the club, The Inklings, they did translations of Wagner from the original German, and then would agree or disagree with parts in an academic fashion.
So though he thought poorly of Wagner's use of the Nordic mythologies, it obviously had a great deal of influence on him.
Yes, I'm a geek. xd |
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Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 3:10 pm
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MoonJeli deadmanjake Also, a fiction book for Christians has become popular. The lion, the witch, and the wardrobe. With which, if it was not for the popularity of the Harry Potter books, I feel, that it may not have become as highly demanded as it is. popular? The Chronicles of Narnia have been popular for a very long time. There is quite a culture behind them, too, from both the fantasy and Christianity views. There are books analyzing the Christian content, fan groups, etc. and countless animated versions, radio plays and so on. They finally made a live action version Lewis may have been able to approve of (he was vehemently against it during his lifetime, because he thought it would butcher the depiction of Aslan, but we have CGI and so on that he never could've imagined).
I contest this. Before Harry Potter came out and became popular, the book stores that I frequent, Including Borders did not have the Lion, the Witch, and The Wardrobe in plain site. At the local Walden Books, I kind of doubt that they had it at all. Heck, they did not even carry any Conan books (assholes). After the first Harry Potter movie, all of a sudden Lemony Snickets, and C.S. Lewis were in plain view. Right next to the Harry Potter books, so they were kind of hard to miss.
Now, I may live in Ohio, but before Harry Potter, the "children's fantasy" books sections did not really exist. All you really had to choose was the Dungeons and Dragons books or the like. Hell, The Wheel Of Time books were always out front, but nope, nothing for younger people. Unless you want to count Sesame Street or Romance Novels for teenagers. Maybe Nancy Drew or the Hardy Boys if you were lucky.
Where were these groups or animated movies? I am sure I would have seen a cartoon entitled The Lion, the Witch, and The Wardrobe if it had surely come out to widespread United States Audiences.
But Magpie mentioned the BBC so things are different across the water. |
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Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 3:59 pm
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MoonJeli However, many believe that Tolkien also wrote the LotR in rebellion against Wagner's mythology, attempting to save the Nordic myths from improper use. Quote: Tolkien was an avowed proponent of preserving the integrity of mythologies.
Granted, it has been well over a decade since I read the texts in question- but I would really like something to support your assertion considering how badly Tolkin himself bastardized Norse Mythos. |
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Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:00 pm
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TeaDidikai MoonJeli However, many believe that Tolkien also wrote the LotR in rebellion against Wagner's mythology, attempting to save the Nordic myths from improper use. Quote: Tolkien was an avowed proponent of preserving the integrity of mythologies. Can you cite this for me? In some of his letters I could have sworn Tolkin claimed he was attempting to make "Modern Mythology". Granted, it has been well over a decade since I read the texts in question- but I would really like something to support your assertion considering how badly Tolkin himself bastardized Norse Mythos.
I was kind of wondering that myself. Althou I have never managed to read but maybe a chapter of any of the books, and it has been a while since I have read any Norse Mythology, I could not really see any similarities in the movies. |
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Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 6:51 pm
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TeaDidikai MoonJeli However, many believe that Tolkien also wrote the LotR in rebellion against Wagner's mythology, attempting to save the Nordic myths from improper use. Quote: Tolkien was an avowed proponent of preserving the integrity of mythologies. Can you cite this for me? In some of his letters I could have sworn Tolkin claimed he was attempting to make "Modern Mythology". Granted, it has been well over a decade since I read the texts in question- but I would really like something to support your assertion considering how badly Tolkin himself bastardized Norse Mythos.
I'm sorry, I'm not explaining this clearly. My assertion is that Tolkien didn't like Wagner's use of Norse Mythology. Is that being debated? Whether Tolkien was justified in it, I make no claims. I was asked if I had a source for my claim of that and I gave Humphry Carpenter's quotations, and Tolkien's.
Tolkien indeed attempted to create a new mythology, and made that claim, and if you've read The Silmarillion, he worked pretty hard on it. He was indeed influenced by many sources, including Nordic mythology, and Wagner himself (even though he claimed otherwise). Tolkien's OWN opinion was that he did it better than Wagner. wink
deadmanjake I was kind of wondering that myself. Althou I have never managed to read but maybe a chapter of any of the books, and it has been a while since I have read any Norse Mythology, I could not really see any similarities in the movies.
He never claimed to be writing a story parallelling Norse mythology, so I'm not sure what you mean here. Could you clear this up for me?
The influences of Norse and Scandinavian and other mythologies are found throughout -- basically starting with elves, dwarves and the like.
Tolkien claimed to be uncomfortable with mixing, say, Nordic mythology such as Dwarves with obviously disparate mythology such as Centaurs or whatnot, which is what he objected to in Lewis's stories. I think quotes on that can be found in some of his "letters" books but I haven't read them in several years.
Out of curiousity, has anyone here seen the Ring Cycle? I've only seen portions live, though I have season subscriptions to the symphony and opera, Portland Opera doesn't do the whole Ring... it goes through Seattle every few years, though, and I know some of you are NWerners.
deadmanjake MoonJeli deadmanjake Also, a fiction book for Christians has become popular. The lion, the witch, and the wardrobe. With which, if it was not for the popularity of the Harry Potter books, I feel, that it may not have become as highly demanded as it is. popular? The Chronicles of Narnia have been popular for a very long time. There is quite a culture behind them, too, from both the fantasy and Christianity views. There are books analyzing the Christian content, fan groups, etc. and countless animated versions, radio plays and so on. They finally made a live action version Lewis may have been able to approve of (he was vehemently against it during his lifetime, because he thought it would butcher the depiction of Aslan, but we have CGI and so on that he never could've imagined). I contest this. Before Harry Potter came out and became popular, the book stores that I frequent, Including Borders did not have the Lion, the Witch, and The Wardrobe in plain site. At the local Walden Books, I kind of doubt that they had it at all. Heck, they did not even carry any Conan books (assholes). After the first Harry Potter movie, all of a sudden Lemony Snickets, and C.S. Lewis were in plain view. Right next to the Harry Potter books, so they were kind of hard to miss. Now, I may live in Ohio, but before Harry Potter, the "children's fantasy" books sections did not really exist. All you really had to choose was the Dungeons and Dragons books or the like. Hell, The Wheel Of Time books were always out front, but nope, nothing for younger people. Unless you want to count Sesame Street or Romance Novels for teenagers. Maybe Nancy Drew or the Hardy Boys if you were lucky. Where were these groups or animated movies? I am sure I would have seen a cartoon entitled The Lion, the Witch, and The Wardrobe if it had surely come out to widespread United States Audiences. But Magpie mentioned the BBC so things are different across the water.
Odd, it wasn't like that at all here. I mean, it comes and goes in cycles, but in my childhood (I'm 26) there were several fantasy series that were ALL the rage, including A Wrinkle in Time, Narnia and Earthsea. Maybe it's just a cycle and they'd phased out for a while? I just asked my fiance (who is 30) and he had read all those series too; I remember buying the Earthsea books in a book swap at my elementary school. A popular NEW fantasy series when I was a kid was the Redwall books. "Everyone" I knew read those. And then of course, classics like Alice's Adventures in Wonderland.
I don't know how old you are. I am wondering if maybe I was just a kid during a peak in their popularity. I do know that fantasy series hit a peak in popularity in the 60s with hippie culture; perhaps us children of the 80s read them a lot because our parents had been raised on them. I'm just speculating.
Here are some of the movies....
1967: http://amazon.imdb.com/title/tt0224907/
1979: http://amazon.imdb.com/title/tt0079474/
1988: http://amazon.imdb.com/title/tt0094500/
http://amazon.imdb.com/title/tt0096681/
http://amazon.imdb.com/title/tt0098912/
I saw the '88 one a dozen times (along with movies like Labyrinth and Dark Crystal and Legend), and I saw the '79 one several times (but thought it was stupid). I've never seen the '67 one -- before my time I guess! Admittedly I haven't seen these on TV in several years, but in the 80s, by George, they were on all the time!
I don't know. I mean, there's a farm around here called Narnia Farms (or Narnia Stables or something, I forget), and Aslan was always listed as a name for a cat in my pet name books, stuff like that.
I guess it's just a different culture. |
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