What makes a Wiccan a Wiccan

[Henry Dorsett Case]

TeaDidikai

Dulliath

If your original intent in this thread had been to prove that Wiccans have no right to the names, I would wholeheartedly agree with you. However, whether the holiday names are Celtic or Norse, this argument is a strawman. Since your original intent was to find things that were valid for discerning or showing "What makes a Wiccan a Wiccan", the holiday names need to be the ones that are used in the Wiccan Fertility Cult, regardless of whether they are basterdized from somewhere else.

However- if we go around ascribing inaccurate terms (for example, the name of Aradia to the Wiccan Lady), no matter if they use the terms or not- they aren't Wiccan.

Let me just see if I've correctly understood your intent. For infodump purposes, we're not trying to determine what the names used in Wicca are (I'd argue you can find that out in Eight Sabbats), but whether or not it needs to be mentioned wholesale that the names used are merely "borrowed", or if there are any Wiccan holy days that are actually properly patterned after the events after which they are named.

Did I get that right?  

[Dulliath]

TeaDidikai

Dulliath

If your original intent in this thread had been to prove that Wiccans have no right to the names, I would wholeheartedly agree with you. However, whether the holiday names are Celtic or Norse, this argument is a strawman. Since your original intent was to find things that were valid for discerning or showing "What makes a Wiccan a Wiccan", the holiday names need to be the ones that are used in the Wiccan Fertility Cult, regardless of whether they are basterdized from somewhere else.

However- if we go around ascribing inaccurate terms (for example, the name of Aradia to the Wiccan Lady), no matter if they use the terms or not- they aren't Wiccan.

True. So, are there valid names for Wiccan holidays at all? And if someone practices the core tenents of Wicca, but calls the Wiccan holidays by the names commonly used by most Wiccans, are they still technically Wiccan?  

[TeaDidikai]

Allow me to explain.

If I say "Wiccans celebrate Samhain", I am making an inaccurate statement. Samhain is a specific holiday (as is Yule etc). Samhain is not the Holiday that the Wiccans Celebrate.

To make an accurate infodump, we have to rely on two key things. Accuracy and Authority.

Samhain not being the same holiday that Wiccans Celebrate is out because it isn't accurate- and no Wiccan, lineaged or otherwise can change that.

Then there is the fact that the Founder of the religion did not use the title.

Does the person who created the religion have more or less authority than the people who came after him?

To those ends- who knows more about Christendom? Yeshua ben Yoseph, or Fred Phelps?  

[Fiddlers Green]

TeaDidikai

Allow me to explain.

If I say "Wiccans celebrate Samhain", I am making an inaccurate statement. Samhain is a specific holiday (as is Yule etc). Samhain is not the Holiday that the Wiccans Celebrate.

To make an accurate infodump, we have to rely on two key things. Accuracy and Authority.

Samhain not being the same holiday that Wiccans Celebrate is out because it isn't accurate- and no Wiccan, lineaged or otherwise can change that.

Then there is the fact that the Founder of the religion did not use the title.

Does the person who created the religion have more or less authority than the people who came after him?

To those ends- who knows more about Christendom? Yeshua ben Yoseph, or Fred Phelps?

Humourously enough, there is a certain similarity between this and the Use of the Words Ashura, Daeva, and (to a lesser extent) Angel.
Ashuras and Daevas both exist in Certain branches of Hinduism and Zoroastrian sects, and they mean very different things... Almost the exact opposite actually... and the question of who's use of the terms was correct was actually a point of academic debate. When the concept of Ashura is translated to English, Angel is the term most often used...
Now, The origin of the word Angel... the -el ending especially, places it firmly in Shem's court, a word already spoken for... But seeing as he stole our Diety incarnate, I don't see why we can't borrow some of his words... Yet it conveys the idea, in the common mind, that is being looked for, so it sometimes stands.

Oh, and My money is on Freddy boy knowing more about the wacky-a** cult that sprang up after Yeshua's crack-pot followers got thru with his PR than the man himself having much of a say in the matter. wink

Also, does Wicca allow for teh namign of that left nameless?
If so, there is plenty of room for co-opting other religion's terminology and further confusing the uninitiated. ninja  

[Dulliath]

TeaDidikai

Then there is the fact that the Founder of the religion did not use the title.

Does the person who created the religion have more or less authority than the people who came after him?

To those ends- who knows more about Christendom? Yeshua ben Yoseph, or Fred Phelps?

However, the founder of a given religion is not necessarily the only authority in that religion that can change or create things.

Yeshua ben Yoseph may be the acknowledged founder of Christianity, but he did not come up with the holidays or the holiday names celebrated by most Christians today. However, since some of those holidays and names are used by Christians, they are seen as uniquely Christian holidays. Easter might be a good example.

Actually, though, since all of the holiday names in question are also used by other, pre-existing faiths, I guess they cannot be thought of as uniquely Wiccan.

((I think I just attacked my own position...))  

[TeaDidikai]

Dulliath

Actually, though, since all of the holiday names in question are also used by other, pre-existing faiths, I guess they cannot be thought of as uniquely Wiccan.

((I think I just attacked my own position...))

And I think that you just hit on why I am discounting the names of the holidays commonly used in the neo-pagan scene.  

[Dulliath]

TeaDidikai

Dulliath

Actually, though, since all of the holiday names in question are also used by other, pre-existing faiths, I guess they cannot be thought of as uniquely Wiccan.

((I think I just attacked my own position...))

And I think that you just hit on why I am discounting the names of the holidays commonly used in the neo-pagan scene.

Remind me not to play team sports against you. I'll win it for the other team. xp  

[TeaDidikai]

Dulliath

Remind me not to play team sports against you. I'll win it for the other team. xp

~chuckles, and hides as she resists the urge to make a snarky comment~  

[Kesseire]

Henry Dorsett Case

kaidakitty

I retract this statement. It's clear that you are following a more Gardnerian line of thinking, so you're never going to agree with my comment.

"Gardnerian" is not an insult, no matter what the characters in Oh My Gods say. Please do not treat it as such. If you want to establish a point counter to the religion the way Gardner founded it, or Alexander Sanders modified it (with the aid of Stewart Farrar), then establish the authority of your stance.

I don't think she was intending it as an insult.

Most neopagan-oriented forums and pages use "Wicca" to indicate a much, much wider set of paths than are accepted as being Wiccan on Gaia. While people in those communities usually recognize that (most? all? I'm not sure) lineaged Wiccans don't accept the broader definition, those communities usually happily continue to use the broader definition.

I think kaidakitty was just acknowledging that since Tea was using the traditional definition of Wicca, Tea wouldn't find any merit in her arguments, and kaidakitty didn't want to get into blows over the "what is Wicca" debate.  

[jaden kendam]

Kesseire

Henry Dorsett Case

kaidakitty

I retract this statement. It's clear that you are following a more Gardnerian line of thinking, so you're never going to agree with my comment.

"Gardnerian" is not an insult, no matter what the characters in Oh My Gods say. Please do not treat it as such. If you want to establish a point counter to the religion the way Gardner founded it, or Alexander Sanders modified it (with the aid of Stewart Farrar), then establish the authority of your stance.

I don't think she was intending it as an insult.

Most neopagan-oriented forums and pages use "Wicca" to indicate a much, much wider set of paths than are accepted as being Wiccan on Gaia. While people in those communities usually recognize that (most? all? I'm not sure) lineaged Wiccans don't accept the broader definition, those communities usually happily continue to use the broader definition.

I think kaidakitty was just acknowledging that since Tea was using the traditional definition of Wicca, Tea wouldn't find any merit in her arguments, and kaidakitty didn't want to get into blows over the "what is Wicca" debate.

If they do not follow what/how Wicca was set up, then they are not Wiccan. No matter how fluffy they think the name is, they are bastardizing a religion just for thier own feelings. They should just stick to calling them selves neo pagans or hippies instead of stealing the name of another religion.  

[Kesseire]

deadmanjake

If they do not follow what/how Wicca was set up, then they are not Wiccan. No matter how fluffy they think the name is, they are bastardizing a religion just for thier own feelings. They should just stick to calling them selves neo pagans or hippies instead of stealing the name of another religion.

I didn't say I was advocating their position. I was simply trying to explain that I don't think she intended to be insulting.

But if you ever get all fired up over it and want to get into the "what is Wicca" debate, here --> MysticWicks online forums

Knock yourself out. wink

I'm not sure that pushing them to use the term "hippies" would be appropriate, though; it'd probably be even more inaccurate than "Wiccan."  

[jaden kendam]

Kesseire

deadmanjake

If they do not follow what/how Wicca was set up, then they are not Wiccan. No matter how fluffy they think the name is, they are bastardizing a religion just for thier own feelings. They should just stick to calling them selves neo pagans or hippies instead of stealing the name of another religion.

I didn't say I was advocating their position. I was simply trying to explain that I don't think she intended to be insulting.

But if you ever get all fired up over it and want to get into the "what is Wicca" debate, here --> MysticWicks online forums

Knock yourself out. wink

I'm not sure that pushing them to use the term "hippies" would be appropriate, though; it'd probably be even more inaccurate than "Wiccan."

It doesnt matter her intent. She has proven that she does not know much about Wicca, yet, she continues to post like she is an authority, thus the insult was taken.

All the fluffies can kiss my a**. They are called fluffy bunnies because they are willfully ignorant. So screw em.  

[saint dreya]

Kesseire

But if you ever get all fired up over it and want to get into the "what is Wicca" debate, here --> MysticWicks online forums

Knock yourself out. wink

most of those responding to the post that initiated the debate, here, are advocates of study and learning, from quality sources, and regularly attempt to set fluffies straight, or bash their heads into their own beliefs.

this link is akin to dangling a carrot right in front of a mule. thank you, twisted . i shall be busy for the next week or so, um, "weeding" my "garden". cheers all. domokun

EDIT: ooh, looks like that "garden" is very well tended already..huh...but "mistletoe" looks to be rather abundant... confused  

[Doctrix]

PirateEire

So Gardner did not give his 8 holidays names at all? Then, perhaps, in keeping with tradition, lineaged Wiccans should let them remain nameless.

Just wanted to clarify that lineaged Wiccans do not necessarily keep their Traditions according to publically published materials.