Guidelines Discussion

[TeaDidikai]

Nuri

Because I want them to participate. And if our atmosphere is hostile, and there are days when I DON'T WANT TO BE HERE, then something has to change.

Aren't there days when everyone doesn't want to be where they are?

And if they consider the intial contact to be hostile, are they going to be able to tell the difference between "hostile" and us telling them they are wrong?

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I'd like us to have a bit more civility (good word) a little more discussion (rather than full-fledged debate, although that certainly has its place), and less running people off.

I've read this maybe five times and I keep thinking of that old Barnem saying: "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time but you can't fool all the people all of the time."

Well, Barnem was a showman. But the same holds true for just about everything and in this case I think "pleasing" is an apt word to switch in.

When I came to the Rehab Guild, if I had quit when you, or Deo or Reagun had "hurt my feelings", I wouldn't have lasted very long.

Sometimes a challenge is what it takes to step up one's game and I think this guild provides that challenge.

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I hate trying to get them back. It takes so much effort.

Why do you try though?

I mean- you yourself said there was an "I hate Nuri and Reagun" guild. You can lead a horse to water- but you cannot make them drink. We can't force fluffies to not be fluffy. But we can help those like Kuroiban, Neko-Bast, Charity and the others who actually will listen to reason.  

[queertastrophy]

Dulliath

I don't post often, but this is the only really active guild I am a member of. I read what is posted here at least twice a day. The reason I don't often post is that most of the time I feel like I learn more just keeping my mouth shut and listening. If I have a question that I haven't seen answered somewhere else, I post and ask.

Oh good, I'm not the only one who does this. ninja

On topic: The way I see it is that people respond differently to how things are put to them. I'm sure I'm not the only one that likes and appreciates a blunt, no-nonsense response when I post something fallacious (or outright stupid).

Some people, however, are far more sensitive--and while I'm not saying that they should be coddled (not by any means), sometimes things need to be toned down, as some topics here have gotten awfully...fiesty.

However, Tea makes a few good points, so...I shall pull my nose out of this, and go back to my usual lurkage. ninja  

[Morphenius]

Nuri, would you mind saying a little bit more about what these guidelines are for?

I ask because this effort to be really careful about the language being used seems like a lawyer's game. That might be appropriate depending on your purpose, mind, but usually laywer's games are very difficult to play and are rarely rewarding.

The way I read your points is as follows:

• People will disagree with you at times, and you'll disagree with others at times. That's okay. You're welcome to present your opinion but let others decide for themselves what they believe.
  
  
• Do not use ad hominem under any circumstances. (Here is a definition of ad hominem for those who may not be familiar with it.)
  
  
• Give the source of your claims. If you have a citation, offer it. If you're just speculating, say so. If you're restating someone else's opinion or research, give that other person credit.
  

Is that about right? If not, please let me know what's missing.  

[Fiddlers Green]

There is a difference between adamantly defending a point and offering cagey debate... and gleefully ripping someone apart for a slight (intentional or otherwise).
The question we must ask is why does the guild exist?
If it is here to destroy falsehood, then that is one thing, and there is no limit to the level of venom that may be used, so long as no falsehood is weilded.
However, if the guild exists to teach...
It must be understood that not everyone learns the same way, and as teachers, our first responsibility must be to our students.
It matters not if whatsomeone teaches is the truth, if that truth is lost in how it is presented. A teacher who offers factual information, but is hateful and blatantly contemptuous of their students will have mixed success at best. Even so much that others may reject the truth be presented, purely because of how and who presents it.
If one is to teach, one must accept that there is ignorance to be fought and that not all battlefields against this ignorance are the same... some can be won with brute force, others with cunning guile... But keep in mind, for a teacher, the true prize of the struggle against ignorance is when it is abolished, and replaced with knowledge... and not just knowledge in the minds of the students, but a thirst for the truth, a desire to take this enlightenment, and use it as a model to vanquish other ignorance.
I know I have often said that The willfully ignorant do not deserve the truth... and in many ways, I stand by that...
However, in this location, as I choose to be, that is not appropriate.
If I want to hoarde knowledge, I can do so thru my silence. To speak and undermine the learning process would be any affront to any purpose I can imagine for this assembly.

So the question I ask...
What is the purpose of this guild?  

[TeaDidikai]

Fiddlers Green

However, if the guild exists to teach...
It must be understood that not everyone learns the same way, and as teachers, our first responsibility must be to our students.

But then that assumes that everyone here must be a teacher or a student, that by merely joining the guild you accept that you take on these roles.

I find that flawed. I am not here to be anyone's student nor anyone's teacher. I am here because it amuses me, and this is where my friends are.

Edit:

Rehab Guild Home Page

You can ask questions, give advice, or simply chat.

That's why I am here.  

[Fiddlers Green]

TeaDidikai

Fiddlers Green

However, if the guild exists to teach...
It must be understood that not everyone learns the same way, and as teachers, our first responsibility must be to our students.

But then that assumes that everyone here must be a teacher or a student, that by merely joining the guild you accept that you take on these roles.

I find that flawed. I am not here to be anyone's student nor anyone's teacher. I am here because it amuses me, and this is where my friends are.

I said if.
If.
I ended my spiel with my question, which you answer in your edit...

Quote:

Edit:

Rehab Guild Home Page

You can ask questions, give advice, or simply chat.

That's why I am here.

You're simply chatting seems a bit more pointed than idle small talk.
wink  

[TeaDidikai]

Fiddlers Green

Quote:

Edit:

Rehab Guild Home Page

You can ask questions, give advice, or simply chat.

That's why I am here.

You're simply chatting seems a bit more pointed than idle small talk.
wink

Doesn't it always Love? wink whee  

[TagraNar]

TeaDidikai

When I came to the Rehab Guild, if I had quit when you, or Deo or Reagun had "hurt my feelings", I wouldn't have lasted very long.

Sometimes a challenge is what it takes to step up one's game and I think this guild provides that challenge.

Just because you've done it doesn't mean some others can. Some people are immediately turned off by overly confrontational atmospheres. Some aren't. Some can weather the storm.

I don't think this guild is about challenging people so much as challenging false ideas or misinformation. It is about honing one's beliefs so that they are sturdy as a rock, but they may not start out like that.

Personally, I have not been active in the guild for a couple of reasons. Sheer laziness, forgetfulness, confusion over which gods to go towards, and whether that's just being enamored or being truly faithful (I feel pulls towards a few, like the Celtic and Greek, but am denied the Celtic because I am not a part of the culture, and on the other hand, there are those I admire; Odin being one of them). However, when I am trying to find answers or clear things up or form my ideas, and only run into bristly opposition, it's not a very good motivator to continue. I am not like you Tea, nor could I be, and thus do not stand up to what you might call standards.

I agree with Fiddler, though. He put things beautifully. I agree with the guidelines, but the third makes me think of M&R, and we've already got one of those. whee  

[Fiddlers Green]

TeaDidikai

Fiddlers Green

Quote:

Edit:

Rehab Guild Home Page

You can ask questions, give advice, or simply chat.

That's why I am here.

You're simply chatting seems a bit more pointed than idle small talk.
wink

Doesn't it always Love? wink whee

After I typed that, I was worried it would be taken other than as I intended it. sweatdrop
I'm glad the wink gave that it was meant to be friendly and mildly humourous.

But yes... there is the fact that, for some of us, seemingly heated debate, and out and out verbal combat are not just acceptable, but enjoyable and amusing pass-times. xd


Don't agree with me!!! gonk
You'll lend credence to what Wing was accusing me of yesterday... sweatdrop  

[TeaDidikai]

TagraNar

Just because you've done it doesn't mean some others can. Some people are immediately turned off by overly confrontational atmospheres. Some aren't. Some can weather the storm.

That's nice. There are other places for people who don't stick around.

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It is about honing one's beliefs so that they are sturdy as a rock, but they may not start out like that.

I believe I am a Tree. No, I don't have roots, branches, leaves or anything of the like. But I am a tree- you cannot tell me otherwise, in fact- you have to honor my believe that has been honed.

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However, when I am trying to find answers or clear things up or form my ideas, and only run into bristly opposition, it's not a very good motivator to continue.

Isn't that a hasty generalization as to my attitude.

Show me where I have ever met an honest question with hostility.

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I am not like you Tea, nor could I be, and thus do not stand up to what you might call standards.

Beg pardon? Context please?

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I agree with the guidelines, but the third makes me think of M&R, and we've already got one of those. whee

And we already have a GD as well. That doesn't prevent the many fluffy pagan guilds from forming.  

[Fiddlers Green]

If I may interject...
bristly opposition and honest question arre both rather subjective and perceptive matters...
This is likely to devolve into a mudsling if we don't keep a bit calm and try to communicate a bit more...
By communicate, I mean expressing ourselves in a manner the person we are expresing at can interpret.

Tea, you know as well as anyone else that your responses can often be seen as abrasive, especially if you have been aggreived. heart

Tagra, if one knows they are dealing with a porcupine, tis best to be mindful of the quils. wink  

[TagraNar]

TeaDidikai

That's nice. There are other places for people who don't stick around.

And yet Nuri seems to want to keep them around.

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I believe I am a Tree. No, I don't have roots, branches, leaves or anything of the like. But I am a tree- you cannot tell me otherwise, in fact- you have to honor my believe that has been honed.

Oh, that's fine, I'm not going to try to force you to believe otherwise. I do not, however, have to accept or agree with that. You misunderstand my point if you think I want people to blindly respect any opinion or belief as if it were true. However, as this guild is made up of a variety of faiths, we seem fully capable of co-existing with ideas we may find ridiculous.

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Isn't that a hasty generalization as to my attitude.

Show me where I have ever met an honest question with hostility.

Someone is jumping to conclusions. Did I ever mention your name? Did I imply it? Was I speaking of a specific situation or giving a general example? And no, mentioning your name in the next sentence is not proof that I was talking about you.
I'll even tell you: it's a very general example. I do not like overly confrontational situations. That's just how I am. To assume I was speaking of you... Well, you know what happens when people assume. I don't remember any situation where you were "hostile" to me.

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Beg pardon? Context please?

You mention weathering the harshness that others directed towards you, and that that challenge is a good thing. I, on the other hand, may not be able to weather that storm. I am not you. Standards is a miswording. My apologies.  

[TeaDidikai]

TagraNar

And yet Nuri seems to want to keep them around.

I noticed. I just don't understand why.

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However, as this guild is made up of a variety of faiths, we seem fully capable of co-existing with ideas we may find ridiculous.

Actually- I have no interest in feeding the absurd.

I make a distinction. I look at faith within the context it exists. This is why Eclecticism has so many problems. Because there isn't a core context. Thus it has more internal contraditions than most.

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Someone is jumping to conclusions. Did I ever mention your name? Did I imply it?

Yes. You did. Once you addressed me by my name and your response by quoting me does imply it.

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To assume I was speaking of you... Well, you know what happens when people assume.

They follow social rules of interaction that provide context that the person who gave the intial signals may or may not have intended?  

[TagraNar]

TeaDidikai

I noticed. I just don't understand why.

*shrugs* It's her guild, and she can do as she wishes.

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Actually- I have no interest in feeding the absurd.

I make a distinction. I look at faith within the context it exists. This is why Eclecticism has so many problems. Because there isn't a core context. Thus it has more internal contraditions than most.

Is it that eclecticism has a problem or that you have a problem with it? You don't need to feed the absurd ideas. A simple "Yes, that's nice." could suffice. When people start making claims about religions that simply aren't true (or with the tree example, because you obviously aren't a tree), then you can step in and say "No."
EDIT: No, this is getting way off topic. I'm dropping it.  

[TheDisreputableDog]

missmagpie

Like where are the other roughly 800 members of this guild who never post?

This one lived in the woods all summer and has been spending the last two months trying not to fail all their classes this semester.

That said...I agree with Tea in part.

I used to post more...I even started topics. Some of them were shot down with varying degrees of hostility because I was being an ignorant fool. 3nodding I didn't stop posting because my shins got toasted, I just went into a phase in my life where I didn't have time even to read the guild. This guild is pretty darn active, and it's sometimes hard to keep up if I also want to get any work done. (I also know I've been so lazy about my own beliefs in recent months that I have no business editing those of others'. I need to go back to church.)

I think the people who do leave after a little singeing made their own choice. Even kindergarten doesn't let kids eat glue--at least ones worth their salt. Not that everyone here has a responsibility to be either student or teacher, but if someone comes in here spouting nonsense, I think someone with more experience is well within their rights to correct them. And I also think that just because the members of this guild who do most of the correcting are very articulate about their strongly-held opinions doesn't mean that they're not being civil.

It is completely possible to earn respect in this guild, you just have to work for it. I think some people come in here with a persecution complex to begin with and don't even give themselves a chance. It's not the responsibility of the longer-term members to coddle them.

Hm. I knew I agreed with someone else instead somewhere along the line, but now I can't remember what it was. And Tea, as always, if I've somehow misconstrued you in the midst of my own disarticulation... sweatdrop