Knowing your dieties

[iolitefire]

TeaDidikai

iolitefire

Lol, I've seen this argument before. I actually am annoyed by it

Heaven forbid people contest your assumptions eh?

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But I'll just use one here. Hinduism has a great deal of sects. So while one may have issues with me worshipping their gods, another may be ok with it.

So- you're appealing to popularity? That's a great foundation for faith. rolleyes

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Also, this is rather mean, but, how could they stop me either way? You can't force someone not to pray.

Ending your life would be one way.

But let's go a better route- how many of the Puranas have you read? What about the Mahabharata and Ramayana or the Mahabharata- or any of the Vedas?

Seriously. You think it's okay to practice culture rape? Care to justify it?

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I believe I have a legit right to call on them. For several reasons: If I the deities were closed to me then the deities would not have answered my prayers or accepted me as their follower.

Maybe they didn't. For all we know you could be working with Thoughtforms made to mimic Hindu deities and stroke your ego.

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Also, consider this. No culture's deities are 100% original.

I'd love to see you prove that Amari is not the grandmother of the Rroma. Go ahead. You can do it!

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People borrow ideas and beliefs from each other all the time. Many of the Greek gods came from the Etruscans, several Hindu gods came from the Fertile Crescent, etc. So unless you made up your own god, no one has exclusive rights to him/her/it.

Oh... I see. You're using soft polytheism as a justification for culture rape. Cute.

Lol, wow. You must have a lot of spare time to critque everyone's posts! I'm really thought I was the only one but nope, you went after someone else too. Darn...thought I was special.

Now then, let's talk about your little discussion. First, yeah, I do have assumptions. But guess what? So do you. Please don't play the pot calling the kettle black. It's really not workin' for ya.

You made a big assumption that I engage in 'Culture Rape.' Really, do you know what that is? Or are you just throwing around a word you found on Wikipedia? I'm just wondering since I'm not seeing it the same way you are...but then again, I'd like to think my souces are pretty valid seeing as they are form cultural anthropology textbooks.

Culture Rape is when a culture takes the aspects of another culture (usually its things like food, clothing, religion, social structure, etc. Its not just fixed as a religion thing) and pretend its their own. They don't attempt to understand the way the other culture worked with that aspect or the history of that aspect. They just take it and put their own word on it.
If you want to throw the word "Culture Rape" on to someone try bloody Silver Ravenwolf and Buckley who stole several different practices and put their own spin on it, but of course never really tell you where it came from.

Borrowing aspects of a culture is quite different and done worldwide. When we eat Chinese food when we're not Chinese, when we buy clothing that's crafted in Afganistan, when we engage in yoga, meditation, martial arts, when we listen to Europop when we're not Europeon, etc. The big difference between Culture Rape and culture borrowing is that in culture borrowing, we know where that aspect came from, how its practiced, and its significance.

Obviously you didn't read my bit on "researching" deities. Normally research involes reading up on the deity and the mythology where it comes from. So yes, I do know the Vedas and I have also attended services at local Hindu temples. So ya, I think I have a pretty good idea of who my deity is and how she is respected/worshipped. I know darshan, I know the stories.

Also, WTF thoughtforms? You like to spew that out a lot don't cha? Well, that's your pot of beef. I don't know what fairy circle you climbed out of but do us all a favor and go back into it. And take your "thoughtforms" with you. I guess that if we haven't had our deities "from birth" then we must be culture raping. Must be convient for you then, huh? Some nice family ties to let hide behind while you spew things out at people...ah, but then again, you are "one of those people." You were accepted by a closed culture, so what makes you think others aren't? What makes you think other cultures are closed?

Lol, you're a riot. You just made my night. Thanks! I hope to talk more with you soon!  

[Pelta]

TeaDidikai

missmagpie

How exactly do you use a deity?

Ask Tsuzuki.
I would guess it looks a lot like using a friend.

Ah. So manipulation for the win?

iolitefire, I suggest you look up the word "respect," find out what it means, then apply it to your daily dealings with people who obviously know what they're talking about.  

[Fiddlers Green]

Dulliath

Do you know the names of the main dieties you worship and/or work with (if any)?

Indeed.
I know several names for both of them.

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Do you understand the things they actually represent?

Better than understanding what they represent, I know who and what they are.

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How did you begin your relationship(s) with said dieties?

That would be telling...

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Why do you think you were chosen by or chose your dieties?

See above.

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Are there groups that believe that they dieties you follow are part of their closed Path/religion, and are therefore not allowed to be used by you or anyone outside their path?

Damn skippy there are, and those spineless, pseudo-monotheist apologists can live their life of compromise and lies as they have chosen...
If they would rather live as Dhimi than uphold the Truth of their faith, then their words on matters of the faith they would rather forsake than fight for have no meaning to me.
Also, their attempts at metagenetics are incompatible when dealing in universal absolutes.

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If so, why do you believe you do have a legitimate right to call on said diety? (This is NOT meant as a derogatory or trolling question, but as an honest query)

See above...
Also, those bent knee hypocrites have no power over our Gods.
It is not for traitorous mortal (or any other mortals) such as them to decide who may or may not follow the Gods they blaspheme.
If either of the dieties I recognize were offended by my actions, then I doubt they would answer my call.

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I ask these questions because the main thing that has held me at a standstill for over 2 years now is that my personal dieties are still pretty nameless and faceless. I have not been approached by any dieties that I know of. The dieties that I have researched either have too many qualities that I am not sure I am comfortable with, or are part of a closed path.

I'd love some advice and suggestions. Anybody?

Seek gnosis, in the absence of gnosis, regular knowledge can substitute... for a time.  

[TeaDidikai]

iolitefire

Lol, wow. You must have a lot of spare time to critque everyone's posts! I'm really thought I was the only one but nope, you went after someone else too. Darn...thought I was special.

Nope. Nothing special about you so far as I have seen.

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Now then, let's talk about your little discussion. First, yeah, I do have assumptions. But guess what? So do you. Please don't play the pot calling the kettle black. It's really not workin' for ya.

Funny. The big assumption I made was that I could take you at your word.

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You made a big assumption that I engage in 'Culture Rape.' Really, do you know what that is?

Considering I put together the primary definition for it in this forum, I would say- yes.

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Or are you just throwing around a word you found on Wikipedia? I'm just wondering since I'm not seeing it the same way you are...but then again, I'd like to think my souces are pretty valid seeing as they are form cultural anthropology textbooks.

That's a beautiful appeal to authority there. However, to decontextualize aspect of culture for your own personal bastardized practices is what is being addressed.

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Culture Rape is when a culture takes the aspects of another culture (usually its things like food, clothing, religion, social structure, etc. Its not just fixed as a religion thing) and pretend its their own.

For a start- show me where I said it was limited to theology. Second- prove that Culture Rape doesn't happen on an individual level- and that it only takes place on a community level.

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They don't attempt to understand the way the other culture worked with that aspect or the history of that aspect. They just take it and put their own word on it.

Care to explain how someone can fully understand a closed culture from outside of it?

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If you want to throw the word "Culture Rape" on to someone try bloody Silver Ravenwolf and Buckley who stole several different practices and put their own spin on it, but of course never really tell you where it came from.

Indeed. But what on earth makes you think you are less guilty than they are?

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Borrowing aspects of a culture is quite different and done worldwide. When we eat Chinese food when we're not Chinese, when we buy clothing that's crafted in Afganistan, when we engage in yoga, meditation, martial arts, when we listen to Europop when we're not Europeon, etc. The big difference between Culture Rape and culture borrowing is that in culture borrowing, we know where that aspect came from, how its practiced, and its significance.

By further extention- have you ever had real Chiese food in the US? Do you know what the application of the different martial arts are within their respective cultures and what the overall context means?

Further- can I point out that these aren't closed cultures?

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Obviously you didn't read my bit on "researching" deities. Normally research involes reading up on the deity and the mythology where it comes from. So yes, I do know the Vedas and I have also attended services at local Hindu temples. So ya, I think I have a pretty good idea of who my deity is and how she is respected/worshipped. I know darshan, I know the stories.

Guess what- I can attend Jewish Temple, I can read the source texts for the Jewish faith. That doesn't mean I have the right to follow the mitzvots.

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Also, WTF thoughtforms? You like to spew that out a lot don't cha? Well, that's your pot of beef. I don't know what fairy circle you climbed out of but do us all a favor and go back into it. And take your "thoughtforms" with you.

Child, I suggest you reconsider your position.

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I guess that if we haven't had our deities "from birth" then we must be culture raping.

Not at all. Deo and Nuri are fine examples of folks who belong to Open Traditions and haven't had their deities from birth.

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Must be convient for you then, huh?

Hardly what I would call convient.

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Some nice family ties to let hide behind while you spew things out at people...

As Didikai, I wouldn't be claiming it without acceptence by the closed culture. Not all of us are kuloratti afterall.

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What makes you think other cultures are closed?

The words of the authorities within the cultures themselves.  

[Deoridhe]

iolitefire

Lol, wow. You must have a lot of spare time to critque everyone's posts! I'm really thought I was the only one but nope, you went after someone else too. Darn...thought I was special.

Now then, let's talk about your little discussion. ... I don't know what fairy circle you climbed out of but do us all a favor and go back into it. And take your "thoughtforms" with you.

Poisoning the well is bad. So is flaming and insulting others. Debate opinions and beliefs, not character and people.  

[Aesi]

Deoridhe

iolitefire

Lol, wow. You must have a lot of spare time to critque everyone's posts! I'm really thought I was the only one but nope, you went after someone else too. Darn...thought I was special.

Now then, let's talk about your little discussion. ... I don't know what fairy circle you climbed out of but do us all a favor and go back into it. And take your "thoughtforms" with you.

Poisoning the well is bad. So is flaming and insulting others. Debate opinions and beliefs, not character and people.

^ What Deo said. 3nodding There're plenty of things I don't agree with Tea on, but I wouldn't point and laugh at her as if her opinions are worth less than mine. Even I can admit that she usually has a stronger basis for her opinions than I have for mine.

Iolite, have you yet forayed into the religion forum in ED? TeaDidikai, a.k.a. Queen of ED, is famous there. She's respected with good reason and is one of the strongest contributors. You mocking her power of debate is much like an astrologer mocking Stephen Hawking.  

[Vertigo_Kiwi]

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My- that is rather disrespectful of yourself and your deities.

As a great man once sang... "******** you very much..."
But beyond all jokes, I never claimed to be the most respectful person in the world. And I'm the sure the gods would respect that more than having me pretend to be something I'm not. So, toots, I guess it's just something you'll have to say "My..!" to.

In other words, your belief that it is disrespectful is close, but no cigar.

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Care to support your assertion on that?

If by support you mean expand, then why not: Humans have a habit of believing that their opinions are the ones that god agrees with. (ex: God bless america, the crusades, KKK, etc.) But they really don't have any proof, besides written word. And by reading Beowulf, or any document really, you can see that people have changed it over the years to suit their opinions. So, I find it incredibly difficult to figure out what the gods want, and not just what some people want.  

[TeaDidikai]

Aesi

Iolite, have you yet forayed into the religion forum in ED? TeaDidikai, a.k.a. Queen of ED, is famous there. She's respected with good reason and is one of the strongest contributors. You mocking her power of debate is much like an astrologer mocking Stephen Hawking.

Being infamous is different than being famous Aesi. wink

Vertigo_Kiwi

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My- that is rather disrespectful of yourself and your deities.

As a great man once sang... "******** you very much..."
But beyond all jokes, I never claimed to be the most respectful person in the world. And I'm the sure the gods would respect that more than having me pretend to be something I'm not. So, toots, I guess it's just something you'll have to say "My..!" to.

In other words, your belief that it is disrespectful is close, but no cigar.

Or observation. Self deprecation isn't flattering- let alone useful beyond juvenal manipulation.

By and by- you are crossing a line with me. I ask you kindly not to address me in an overly familiar way.

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But they really don't have any proof, besides written word.

Contested. When the theology is Sola scriptura - written word is enough.

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And by reading Beowulf, or any document really, you can see that people have changed it over the years to suit their opinions.

We call this a Strawman. It isn't good form. You might want to try again by not suggesting that translations are universally flawed and that all source text has been manipulated.

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So, I find it incredibly difficult to figure out what the gods want, and not just what some people want.

Your inability to sort out what deities command of their children does not merit a blanket statement.  

[Henry Dorsett Case]

TeaDidikai

Aesi

Iolite, have you yet forayed into the religion forum in ED? TeaDidikai, a.k.a. Queen of ED, is famous there. She's respected with good reason and is one of the strongest contributors. You mocking her power of debate is much like an astrologer mocking Stephen Hawking.

Being infamous is different than being famous Aesi. wink

Hey, I grew up in the 80's, I saw Three Amigos!, I know what infamous means! It's better than famous!

I also have a plethora of piñatas.  

[Aesi]

TeaDidikai

Aesi

Shekhinah,

Location.

Could be considered so, yes. I did find a couple resources which note that the word's literal definition is "dwelling". (However, these resources also define it as "presence", so it seems to imply the action of dwelling, rather than the object.) It refers to the presence of God, so it could be interpreted as "being in the presence of God". More likely, the word simply meant the extent to which humans could experience YHVH It appears that it wasn't considered a separate entity from YHVH until the Middle Ages. This may be how the Shekhinah became a female consort of God in the qabala. On this line, a reference I have mentions that the mitzvot are supposed to be undertaken in order to reunite the Shekhinah and YHVH. Umm, it seems there is debate among scholars and rabbis about the purpose of the mitzvot. So, that particular opinion on them may be founded, may not be, or may only have as strong foundation as any other possible argument. What I know of it is shaky, so I'm still looking into it.

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Adam,

Generic name for human kind.

Yeah. I worship a personification of mankind. Why? Because the whole of humanity is both greater than me and something which I love.

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and Lilith.

You worship a demoness as a deity.
stare
And I thought Bibi was an odd one.

Yes, I do. Because I admire not only what is good, but I am in awe of the great variety of existence and I am glad of it, even if it means that terrible things must occur to keep that variety intact.

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Take a look at the Mideast. There are thousands of closed Judeo-Christian sects. In this case, they aren't necessarily correct, but they are quite determined to believe they are.

I'd love for you to show me know you know they're wrong.

I never said I do know they're wrong. See bolded section. It means, "they may be right or wrong, and I don't know which they are".  

[Vertigo_Kiwi]

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Or observation. Self deprecation isn't flattering- let alone useful beyond juvenal manipulation.

By and by- you are crossing a line with me. I ask you kindly not to address me in an overly familiar way.

Yes, but not everyone is born with the whole enlarged ego personality trait. So, allow me to be myself and we'll all be happy.

And crossing lines is what I do best, you'll have to forgive me for not following your demands. Plus I was just aching for a chance to use the word "toots"

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Contested. When the theology is Sola scriptura - written word is enough.

Besides being "one of five important slogans of the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century.." (then after that my contacts went blurry and refused to allow me to read the rest) I'm really not quite sure what you mean by that. Forgive me, I took Espanol instead of Latin during my High School days. (and if that's not even Latin, then let's all have a laugh)

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We call this a Strawman. It isn't good form. You might want to try again by not suggesting that translations are universally flawed and that all source text has been manipulated.

Scholars argue that Beowulf was added to in years after it's original creation, so I didn't meant the whole translation thing. But that's alright, if it bothers you I can just pretend as if I meant that.

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Your inability to sort out what deities command of their children does not merit a blanket statement.

But what if our perception of what deities want is made muddy by what we are told they want. Then the whole "following all the rules of texts" thing goes down the drain, especially since I'm a cynic and believe in the capability of corruption. But hey, that's just my ole' opinion.. this isn't the ED so no need to argue over differences.  

[TeaDidikai]

Aesi

Could be considered so, yes. I did find a couple resources which note that the word's literal definition is "dwelling".

Please note that "mowshab" is closer to dwelling

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- (However, these resources also define it as "presence", so it seems to imply the action of dwelling, rather than the object.)

Which sources would these be? Can you cite scripture to this effect?

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It refers to the presence of God, so it could be interpreted as "being in the presence of God". More likely, the word simply meant the extent to which humans could experience YHVH It appears that it wasn't considered a separate entity from YHVH until the Middle Ages.

That's boarderline Trinity doctrines.

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This may be how the Shekhinah became a female consort of God in the qabala.

stare Cite this in the SY please.

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Adam,

Generic name for human kind.

Yeah. I worship a personification of mankind. Why? Because the whole of humanity is both greater than me and something which I love.

Ummm... wow. Welcome to Bastardized Satanism 101. wink

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and Lilith.

You worship a demoness as a deity.
stare
And I thought Bibi was an odd one.

Yes, I do. Because I admire not only what is good, but I am in awe of the great variety of existence and I am glad of it, even if it means that terrible things must occur to keep that variety intact.

And why her? There are so many better demons in your mythos to worship.

I mean- really- have you considered being a Theistic Satanist yet?

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I never said I do know they're wrong. See bolded section. It means, "they may be right or wrong, and I don't know which they are".

Fair enough. Although the tone of your post suggests otherwise.  

[TeaDidikai]

Vertigo_Kiwi

Yes, but not everyone is born with the whole enlarged ego personality trait. So, allow me to be myself and we'll all be happy.

And crossing lines is what I do best, you'll have to forgive me for not following your demands. Plus I was just aching for a chance to use the word "toots"

I am being direct with you. Do not do it again or I shall report you to the Mods for a violation of the ToS.

Trolling is against the rules afterall.

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Contested. When the theology is Sola scriptura - written word is enough.

Besides being "one of five important slogans of the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century.." (then after that my contacts went blurry and refused to allow me to read the rest) I'm really not quite sure what you mean by that. Forgive me, I took Espanol instead of Latin during my High School days. (and if that's not even Latin, then let's all have a laugh)

"Vertigo_Kiwi"]But they really don't have any proof, besides written word.
That is to say- the proof of the validity of their written word within their tradition is found within their scriptures.

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Scholars argue that Beowulf was added to in years after it's original creation, so I didn't meant the whole translation thing. But that's alright, if it bothers you I can just pretend as if I meant that.

Scholars can say that about Beowulf all they want. That doesn't mean it applies to any given theological text.

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But what if our perception of what deities want is made muddy by what we are told they want.

"What if" and a dollar will buy you a candy bar at the Dollar Store.

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Then the whole "following all the rules of texts" thing goes down the drain,

Actually Scripture Alone solves that problem. No matter what you want, the deities that gave the scripture to the people exists.

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especially since I'm a cynic and believe in the capability of corruption.

Appeal to Probability doesn't mean you're right.

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But hey, that's just my ole' opinion.. this isn't the ED so no need to argue over differences.

Welcome to the Rehab guild. I know you're familiar with it. Now you understand why blanket statements aren't welcome. Their misleading. We try our best not to further ignorance here.  

[maenad nuri]

Actually, put me in the translations are flawed camp. I don't think we can ever convey a total meaning of a text in a single translation, or even many translations. There always seems to be a piece missing.

However, for me, that just means being critical of translations and source material general. Not a bad thing at all.  

[Henry Dorsett Case]

TeaDidikai

Aesi

This may be how the Shekhinah became a female consort of God in the qabala.

stare Cite this in the SY please.

Quick question - why only the Sefer Yetzirah? The Shekhinah is held in Qabbalistic teachings (arguably, stemming from Talmudic teaching) to be the divine presence of YHVH, present on Shabbat, revered as feminine by the Shabbat Hamalka and in the Zohar.