Gifts

[Neko_Bast]

wow.....interesting debats going.... ^-^

On giving gifts, I give them because I care. I don't give gifts to strangers, but to people who I consider my close friends and family. I like seeing them happy, cuse that makes me happy. Or sometimes I'll give my art away to people who really like what I drew even when I don't know them that well becaue the drawing makes them happy. (sometimes I'm to nice ^-^)  

[Pelta]

reagun ban

Yeah, that was the quote. And it wasn't the "ex" part that was damning, it was the "repeat child rapist" because he "like(s) them young and innocent" that was damning.

Ah. I would love to see you prove these statements. In fact, I would love to see you prove he ever even had intercourse with a minor.

On the subject of child intercourse, let us examine this a little more closely. Legally, statutory rape in this country is when someone a year or more older than the child has sexual intercourse with someone under the age of 18. Thusly, anyone who lost their virginity under the age of 18 to someone slightly older than them knows a 'child rapist.'

And of course - there is no proof for any of these assertations. When the Johnnies have been destroyed who's to say it ever happened?

reagun ban

Shortly enough before he got his punk a** extradited back to the country for engaging in intercourse with minors, I believe.

Care to prove any of this? Rumors heard in Fibber's aren't exactly solid tender.

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None-the-less, he had come up in conversation before and I extolled his crimes and the punishments he was due and the punishments for those who consort with him.

Note the bold. Having been told he deserved to die does not imply that said person was told not to see him. I am sure a warning of such audacity would not have gone unnoticed.

reagun ban

missmagpie

Ah. So Captain Carrot and the local Alexandrian High Priestess fall in that category too?

Wanna cite instances of Cap'n carrot engaging in child abuse or child rape?

No. I have heard him say he has time for the man in question, as has the HPS whose tarot courses I attend. I will not quote exact phrases without permission, but both have indicated respect for him.

Will you now, as your honor dictates, break off relations with both without solid proof of their intentions or the integrity of the one you call a rapist?

reagun ban

That's nice dear.

Child, terms of sarcastic endearment will get you nowhere.

reagun ban

Don't mistake apathy for ignorance.

And don't mistake prejudice for moral rectitude.

reagun ban

If they didn't deserve the gift(s) and you gave them to the hypothetical friend, then you're a fool.

Indeed I am. Misjudgment occurs in even the most careful of people.

reagun ban

I have two of the strongest connections I've ever experienced. Both of them are flawed. I'll be hanging on to them though.
It's when a connection is inherently damaging.
I would gladly sever a connection to a spiritual parasite, or to someone who associates with child rapists, for example.

So you play it safe and cover your back. I can respect that. It makes sense to protect what's closest to you when one is afraid of being hurt.

The question that jumps to my mind is, what happens when one of your two strongest companions slips up and proves themselves unworthy of your friendship?

reagun ban

However, we come to the matter of what to do with the gifts when the friendship is over.
We can trust the person, who has shown themselves to be unworthy, and give them back. That would be foolish.

Indeed once a gift is given I find it impossible to accept or give one back.

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We could leave them where they are. That would be foolish.

Why? Would you not trust yourself not to use them for malicious ends?

Edited to fix quotations  

[Pelta]

I have vague recollections of reading a response in college that has apparently been deleted.

However, this is unimportant. Quite honestly I do not wish to continue this debate. Arguing over spilled milk is not going to change the fact that it happened.

Two paths diverged two months ago. I'm going to walk mine and you can walk yours and heaven hope we never meet again.

Conceded.

Now, if anybody has anything to say about the topic of gifts in pagan traditions I would be most glad to hear it. 3nodding  

[Starlock]

I had a gift giving experience specifically within the Neopagan community that might be of interest to some. We did a gift exchange last Yule that was a lot of fun. We all braught something to give and put it on the altar and from there everyone got to pick something based on number draws (there were a few other rules too). Everyone braught very nice Craft-related objects. There were some spell kits, candles, a very nice hand-crafted wooden chalice, wands, wall art, among other things. It was an activity that reinforced the community spirit of the festival.  

[TeaDidikai]

My Yule shopping list is so long I cannot buy presents for everyone. So I make them.

A couple years ago I made giant soft-ball sized fortune cookies, with real fortunes. A simple rune casting- typed up and gifted.

Last year I made little wooden talismans. Over a hundred of them. Some were Zanki, others Futhark and even one random Astrological sign. I carried them around in a basket, each wrapped in a scrap of cloth and people where told to "grap [theirs]".

It was a little uncanny how perfect the draws were.  

[Fiddlers Green]

For me, tis the act of giving that is fortuitous.
In some instances, it is Charity, giving a gift to someone who needs it.
In others, it is a strengthening of the bond, or rather, a physical representation of the affections behind said bond. Thus giving greater purchase in the realm physcial to the idealogy behind said bond.

In some rare cases, the gift may be more than either of those things, it may actually have more than just the intrinsic emotional investment of anything given in affection... it may have been specially prepared and attuned as something of a conduit, a proxy of my person, rather than just a tender of my warmth. In those cases, while it is still ag ift, it is somethign more, and in gaining that more extensive specification, it is, in my reconing, something different.

Just as a sword is a weapon, and a weapon is a tool... a sword is still a tool... but even moreso, it is a weapon.  

[Pelta]

TeaDidikai

My Yule shopping list is so long I cannot buy presents for everyone. So I make them.

Much the same. Because I'm a student and poor it's much easier to make them. Also it's more fun and meaningful.

Origami is my first port of call, just as gifts to give to anyone. Some are charged and some are just mechanical. My fingers just do it without thinking about it.

Most of my friends have at some point recieved a woven bracelet of various colors I that feel suit them. When I make them specifically for people they tend to wear them. Otherwise my fingers just do things when they're bored, and the product gets given away.

Actually a lot of the motivation behind the gifts I give is because I feel like making something. If I kept all the stuff I made there'd be no space in my room. When I'm making something specifically for someone it's a different story.  

[Aesi]

TeaDidikai

Aesi

If you worshipped this deity and your friend chose to part ways, would she be upholding what is right?

1) He. There is a p***s that is attached to the individual in question.

-shrug- Okay, whichever.

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Is your nature still in violation of your friendship? In this case, you remain friends because at least one of you chooses to, right?

No. It takes two willing individuals to form a friendship.

Well, yes, of course. But after a fight, only one of them has to take action to remain friends. If the other person decides they don't want to be friends anymore, that's that. But if neither acts, things aren't going to magically work themselves out between them. So, if they remain friends after some disagreement, one of them must have decided they wanted to repair their friendship.

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Maybe one god or the other or both are unhappy about it, but that's something to deal with.

You seem to be under the impression that individuals can just opt out of obligations to deities.

Yeah, I do believe that. I never said there wouldn't be consequences for it, but we can still choose whether or not we uphold our responsibilites.

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Would it automatically mean your friendship had to dissolve?

Sorry, but I consider a valuable friendship to be as important as my relationship with my god. If he objects, I won't tell him to "******** off", but I will do my best to make my case. If I fail in that, then I have to decide whether my friend or my god is more important to me.

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Pardon me, but gods are gods and humans are humans. Last I checked, we're free to accept the risks, rewards, and responsibilities of everything we do, regardless of who we worship and what they think about our choices.

You didn't check too well.
Some individuals have responsibilities that they simply cannot turn their backs on.
I'm happy for you that your faith and your relationship with your gods is something you can be so casual about as to ignore your oaths and everything- but not everyone has that luxury.

I'm not the least bit casual about my oaths. It takes quite a lot to make me break any promise to anyone, human or god. I kept an oath for five years. I decided, time and time again, that I couldn't explain away what I felt I owed to my god. This sense of obligation I feel for my family, as well. You can choose to turn your back on your obligations, always. You are never devoid of that choice. You can break oaths, disappoint expectations, and betray no matter what you've agreed to. If you choose not to, it's because you know you'll lose something you hold valuable. Regardless of any other consequences, an oathbreaker always loses some respect from others or for themselves. It's possible to earn it again, but not easy and very rare. Still, it comes down to decision.

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Frankly, I see little value in a person who'd tell me we can't be friends because our paths might conflict.

That's nice. Cookie?

Perhaps I am being too harsh. You seem to misunderstand.

"Hi! I'm a rapist. I want to be your friend."
"Hi! I'm the sister of your last victim. She doesn't want me being friends with you."

A little easier to understand?

Said sister isn't worthless. Said sister has a number of valid reasons to tell the individual in question to stay the ******** away from the person who raped them.

No, I didn't misunderstand. I won't assume that I can't be friends with my enemies. No matter what they did to me, I may one day find that I want to know more about the person who made me suffer. That is, maybe I'd just want to know why they did it. Then, I may or may not discover something in that person which I find valuable. I'll decide that, no one else will do it for me. If I decide there's value in my continuing a relationship with that person, I will. I'll forgive and deal with that person according to my own judgment. And I'll deal with any objections from man or god as stated above.

My statement was personal. If said sister were mine, she'd have just gone down a few pegs in my esteem for assuming that I'd even consider friendship with her rapist without some damned good reasons. I wouldn't demand that she understand. But if she refused to accept that I wouldn't do it to spite her or defy her or even to just calm her worries, then I'd judge that she isn't worth much as my sister.

When I know that someone possesses both broad tolerance and care for me, then I'd listen if they argued against my decisions. These are the people who love me and whom I love. No one else is heard, because there is no one else on earth who'd say something that would be useful to me.  

[TeaDidikai]

Aesi

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Is your nature still in violation of your friendship? In this case, you remain friends because at least one of you chooses to, right?

No. It takes two willing individuals to form a friendship.

Well, yes, of course. But after a fight, only one of them has to take action to remain friends. If the other person decides they don't want to be friends anymore, that's that. But if neither acts, things aren't going to magically work themselves out. So, if they remain friends after some disagreement, one of them must have decided they wanted to repair their friendship.

Your assertion was incorrect. If ones nature is still in violation of the friendship, then they remain friends because both agree.

Not by the actions of one.

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Yeah, I do believe that. I never said there wouldn't be consequences for it, but we can still choose whether or not we uphold our responsibilites.

Not if the results give no free will.

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Sorry, but I consider a valuable friendship to be as important as my relationship with my god.

That's nice. Have a cookie. Some of us have more than a casual relationship with deities.

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If he objects, I won't tell him to "******** off", but I will do my best to make my case. If I fail in that, then I have to decide whether my friend or my god is more important to me.

And then there are those who have obligations to their community, to their family.

I'm happy for you. Really. An easy spiritual path must be nice.

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I'm not the least bit casual about my oaths. It takes quite a lot to make me break any promise to anyone, human or god.

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And yet you assume that others simply break their words at the drop of a hat? Wow. My my don't we play fast and loose with the rules eh?

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You are never devoid of that choice.

I'll tell that to the next rape victim I speak with.

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No, I didn't misunderstand. I won't assume that I can't be friends with my enemies. No matter what they did to me, I may one day find that I want to know more about the person who made me suffer. That is, maybe I'd just want to know why they did it.

Curiosity about motives !=Friendship.

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And I'll deal with any objections from man or god as stated above.

For which I shall end this conversation here and now. If you are so immoral as to be willing to befriend a rapist who would assult you- you have no bounderies. A lack of bounderies in such a situation is blindly dangerous.

 

[WitchyBoy]

the way i see it, gifts are very important objects especially if they are made by the giver. there are those who would take and brake these gifts and there are those who would cherish the gift. i think that you should only give something like this if you truly mean it.  

[Molly Mollusca]

WitchyBoy

the way i see it, gifts are very important objects especially if they are made by the giver. there are those who would take and brake these gifts and there are those who would cherish the gift. i think that you should only give something like this if you truly mean it.

Mind you I don;t have an pagan tradition where this is coming from, but if I give someone a gift I made for them, I would rather have them love it for eternity, or just give it back instead of putting it in a cubbord never to survace again.

Destroying a personal gift would really feel like twisting a knife in my heart.

Fiddler's Green

Just as a sword is a weapon, and a weapon is a tool... a sword is still a tool... but even moreso, it is a weapon.

Did you just say a gift is like a weapon? neutral I fail to see the simularities, unless you are hinting that you want a sword for you birthday. wink  

[Pelta]

Elfin Brill

Destroying a personal gift would really feel like twisting a knife in my heart.

It does. But then again, once a gift is given it is no longer in your power or possession. You no longer have any control over what someone does with it, so if you care about the gifts you give it is a good idea to be careful of who you give them to.  

[CuAnnan]

Elfin Brill

Mind you I don;t have an pagan tradition where this is coming from, but if I give someone a gift I made for them, I would rather have them love it for eternity, or just give it back instead of putting it in a cubbord never to survace again.

This is the problem, Elfin.
When you give a gift, it is not yours to say what should or shouldn't be done with it.
Personally, I find the idea of giving a gift back repulsive. I would find it ignoble. You destroy the gift and carry the knowledge that you destroyed something that meant something to you with you always.

Elfin Brill

Destroying a personal gift would really feel like twisting a knife in my heart.

o.O No. It really wouldn't.
While I've never been stabbed, I've been cut by blades before. The physical pain is short lived and less intense.

Elfin Brill

Did you just say a gift is like a weapon? neutral I fail to see the simularities, unless you are hinting that you want a sword for you birthday. wink

No. I don't think so. On any case.
He has plenty of swords and will buy one if he wants it, rather than wait for his birthday.
I think what he was saying is, similar to swords being weapons and tools, gifts can be multi purpose