Christian Wicca lol

[Eshmasesh]

Sovereign of Darkness

TeaDidikai

Nuri

Romanus

Well, couldn't a person be Wiccan and still accept Jesus Christ as their personal saviour? That'd make them Christian by technicality, methinks.

Wouldn't that require belief and worship of the Abrahamic God, though? He doesn't play nice with others.

A soft polytheist could get away with it- but then you have the problem that both of said religions are at best- hard polythesitic.

(If I need to cite the scripture where YHVH acknowledges other deities I will)

Please do. I didn't even realize it was out there O.o

Seconded. I'm very interested in this.  

[TeaDidikai]

Eshmasesh

Sovereign of Darkness

TeaDidikai

Nuri

Romanus

Well, couldn't a person be Wiccan and still accept Jesus Christ as their personal saviour? That'd make them Christian by technicality, methinks.

Wouldn't that require belief and worship of the Abrahamic God, though? He doesn't play nice with others.

A soft polytheist could get away with it- but then you have the problem that both of said religions are at best- hard polythesitic.

(If I need to cite the scripture where YHVH acknowledges other deities I will)

Please do. I didn't even realize it was out there O.o

Seconded. I'm very interested in this.

Let's start with the easy ones.

Let's start with 1Kings 11. The OT acknoweldges Ashtoreth as deity by calling her Ashtoreth Elohiym.

Also note that in 1Kings 11:2 it speaks of the deities again as Elohiym.

Now- for those who say that this denotes false gods, you have to take into account that Gen 1:1 uses the word Elohiym as the deity of creation.


Then you have the famous prohibitions against the worship of other gods.
Exd 20:3, Exd 23:13, Jdg 10:13-14, Jer 25:6 Jer 44:5

Now- all of these prohibit the worship of other gods, all of them use the word that is usually assigned as God in Gen 1.

Outside of eisegesis, there is nothing to support the belief that there is only one god universally.

However, all of these direct The Chosen People (the Jewish people) not to break their pacts with YHVH- their lord and protector.  

[AlexShin]

While the Bible says that only one God should be worshipped, not that just one God exists, to be Christian is to worship that particular God in the form of the Trinity (though there are differences between denominations). The idea of Christian Wicca is hilarious because there's nothing really Christian about that syncretism. It's a travesty. Even if they use "God", "Jesus", "Holy Spirit" and "Mary", the meaning is too different.

Let's see... To be a Christian Wiccan I'd have to call the Goddess Shekinah (I have no problem with that, but it's not a Christian concept), say it's the Holy Spirit _and_ the Earth ( stressed ), embodied in the Virgin Mary and mother to the God as Jesus? (Or in Mary Magdalene and wife to Jesus? Then what about God-God? Uhm, wee, polyandry? sweatdrop )

And, btw, speaking of denominations, maybe they should call it Liberal Protestant Wicca lol Using "Christian" is just begging for refutations, but it does have a nice ring to it. *eyeroll*  

[TeaDidikai]

CrimGale

Or in Mary Magdalene and wife to Jesus?

Only if you enjoy putting concepts where there are none.

However, you could argue that Mother Mary was the compassionate aspect of Bhina  

[Morphenius]

I'm speaking from pure theory here. I'm not an expert on Christianity or the Bible, and I've managed to avoid being initiated into any Wiccan traditions so far. So if I say something grossly erroneous, please correct me.

To my understanding, the theistic basis of Wicca is of the duality of masculine and feminine principles. Some focus more on the Goddess, and I'd imagine that some focus more on the God, but I'm pretty sure that every form of Wicca acknowledges the masculine and feminine both. (Dianic Wicca may be an exception. I'm not sure. They don't seem interested in talking to me for some odd reason. rolleyes )

Within Wicca, each person can choose one or more manifestations of the masculine and/or feminine principle to focus upon. Someone might prefer emphasis on Artemis, for instance, or on Vishnu. One odd attribute of Wicca (which may be only in its eclectic form, admittedly) appears to be in its assumption that all gods and goddesses are manifestations of the God and Goddess.

Under this presumption, why can't a person's deity of choice be Christ? They can sincerely believe that he is the son of the God but is also the God (since all gods are a form of the God), that he performed the reported miracles, gave the reported sermons, and so on.

This certainly doesn't contradict any of the other tendencies in Wicca that I'm aware of. The focus on nature isn't particularly emphasized as far as I know, but it's easy to argue that human beings have deviated from a natural state and that through Christ they can find salvation by return to nature through love of self and other.

If I remember correctly, Christ often encouraged others to be like him and said that others could do the same things he could do if they just had faith. So faith in divinity enters the picture as a primary medium for magic.

I'm pretty sure that a Wiccan Catholic is an oxymoron, as would be a Wiccan Mormon. But I'm not so sure that "Christian Wicca" is a contradiction in terms.

Corrections? Comments?  

[TeaDidikai]

Morphenius

I'm speaking from pure theory here. I'm not an expert on Christianity or the Bible, and I've managed to avoid being initiated into any Wiccan traditions so far. So if I say something grossly erroneous, please correct me.

I thought... huh?

Quote:

To my understanding, the theistic basis of Wicca is of the duality of masculine and feminine principles. Some focus more on the Goddess, and I'd imagine that some focus more on the God, but I'm pretty sure that every form of Wicca acknowledges the masculine and feminine both. (Dianic Wicca may be an exception. I'm not sure. They don't seem interested in talking to me for some odd reason. rolleyes )

Dianics aren't Wiccan anymore. They dropped the title.

Wicca has two specific deities and is not soft polytheistic.

Quote:

Within Wicca, each person can choose one or more manifestations of the masculine and/or feminine principle to focus upon. Someone might prefer emphasis on Artemis, for instance, or on Vishnu. One odd attribute of Wicca (which may be only in its eclectic form, admittedly) appears to be in its assumption that all gods and goddesses are manifestations of the God and Goddess.

Not Wicca. That's Exlectic Neo-Paganism with Wiccan influence.

Quote:

Under this presumption, why can't a person's deity of choice be Christ? They can sincerely believe that he is the son of the God but is also the God (since all gods are a form of the God), that he performed the reported miracles, gave the reported sermons, and so on.

Cause Wicca isn't soft polytheistic. whee  

[TheDisreputableDog]

TeaDidikai

Cause Wicca isn't soft polytheistic. whee

I must have missed the development of this distinction since I've been gone, because this is the first I can remember seeing it used.

What's the difference between hard and soft polythiestic?  

[IH_Zero]

TheDisreputableDog

I must have missed the development of this distinction since I've been gone, because this is the first I can remember seeing it used.

What's the difference between hard and soft polythiestic?

I believe soft polytheism holds that all deities are the manifestations of the one God and/or Goddess. Where hard polytheism holds that deities are seperate beings.  

[TeaDidikai]

AngryRobotsInc.

TheDisreputableDog

I must have missed the development of this distinction since I've been gone, because this is the first I can remember seeing it used.

What's the difference between hard and soft polythiestic?

I believe soft polytheism holds that all deities are the manifestations of the one God and/or Goddess. Where hard polytheism holds that deities are seperate beings.

Bingo- plus, Gardner stated that those who work with other deities are "something else", not Wiccans.  

[Morphenius]

TeaDidikai

I thought... huh?

biggrin Just to confuse you hun!

I was never initiated into Morgana Wicca. I was still in my Questor year when I left. Morgana Wicca has one mandatory year of Questing which is a mutual evaluation period, then an Initiation year in which the person learns the ropes of the path, and after the end of the Initiation year the person is Initiated - if they pass some basic tests.

I managed to piss everyone off before my first year was up. confused

TeaDidikai

Dianics aren't Wiccan anymore. They dropped the title.

For some reason that's kind of satisfying. wink

TeaDidikai

Wicca has two specific deities and is not soft polytheistic.

I'm sure you know what you're talking about, but you've been throwing around very specific claims about Wicca that I'm not sure of and don't have any sources to which I can refer.

When you say "Wicca," are you meaning to imply Gardenerian Wicca? Because by the assertion you give her, Morgana Wicca isn't a Wiccan path. They do maintain the "soft polytheistic" attitude at least to some degree.

If you mean something else, would you mind being very specific about what you define Wicca to be? I know you started a discussion here but I'm looking for your definition.

TeaDidikai

Morphenius

Under this presumption, why can't a person's deity of choice be Christ? They can sincerely believe that he is the son of the God but is also the God (since all gods are a form of the God), that he performed the reported miracles, gave the reported sermons, and so on.

Cause Wicca isn't soft polytheistic. whee

I'm speculating in the dark here because I still need to hear what your definition of "Wicca" is. But the question still seems to stand: If Wicca holds that there is a specific God and a specific Goddess, why can't their offspring be Christ?  

[Dulliath]

Morphenius

TeaDidikai

I thought... huh?

biggrin Just to confuse you hun!

I was never initiated into Morgana Wicca. I was still in my Questor year when I left. Morgana Wicca has one mandatory year of Questing which is a mutual evaluation period, then an Initiation year in which the person learns the ropes of the path, and after the end of the Initiation year the person is Initiated - if they pass some basic tests.

I managed to piss everyone off before my first year was up. confused

TeaDidikai

Dianics aren't Wiccan anymore. They dropped the title.

For some reason that's kind of satisfying. wink

TeaDidikai

Wicca has two specific deities and is not soft polytheistic.

I'm sure you know what you're talking about, but you've been throwing around very specific claims about Wicca that I'm not sure of and don't have any sources to which I can refer.

When you say "Wicca," are you meaning to imply Gardenerian Wicca? Because by the assertion you give her, Morgana Wicca isn't a Wiccan path. They do maintain the "soft polytheistic" attitude at least to some degree.

If you mean something else, would you mind being very specific about what you define Wicca to be? I know you started a discussion here but I'm looking for your definition.

TeaDidikai

Morphenius

Under this presumption, why can't a person's deity of choice be Christ? They can sincerely believe that he is the son of the God but is also the God (since all gods are a form of the God), that he performed the reported miracles, gave the reported sermons, and so on.

Cause Wicca isn't soft polytheistic. whee

I'm speculating in the dark here because I still need to hear what your definition of "Wicca" is. But the question still seems to stand: If Wicca holds that there is a specific God and a specific Goddess, why can't their offspring be Christ?

Gaia won't let me access Tea' s infodump right now, but it has exactly the info you are asking about.  

[Henry Dorsett Case]

Morphenius

I'm speculating in the dark here because I still need to hear what your definition of "Wicca" is.

The general definition 'round these parts is the fertility cult founded by Gerald Gardner, including Traditions that have a direct lineage back to Gardnerian Tradition and that maintain the theology of the religion as founded by Gardner. An initiated mystery religion worshipping the Lord and Lady of the Isles.

And unfortunately, many groups that call themselves Wicca hold no valid claim to the title by lack of lineage of training. I've met IRABs with a better functional knowledge of Wiccan theology than some of the new wannabe-Wiccan Covens I've seen spring up.

Quote:

But the question still seems to stand: If Wicca holds that there is a specific God and a specific Goddess, why can't their offspring be Christ?

Because the Wiccan God is not YHVH, and YHVH by Christian theology doesn't claim that YHVH had sex with another deity to create Christ?  

[Eshmasesh]

Morphenius

I'm speculating in the dark here because I still need to hear what your definition of "Wicca" is. But the question still seems to stand: If Wicca holds that there is a specific God and a specific Goddess, why can't their offspring be Christ?

um...is that suggesting that Mary Magdalene is a Goddess?
Because that completely destroys Jesus' intermediation between God and humans.
The Christian God requires sole worship, while Wicca requires equal worship between the male and female deities. It just can't work without messing with the basics of either religion.  

[Henry Dorsett Case]

Eshmasesh

Morphenius

I'm speculating in the dark here because I still need to hear what your definition of "Wicca" is. But the question still seems to stand: If Wicca holds that there is a specific God and a specific Goddess, why can't their offspring be Christ?

um...is that suggesting that Mary Magdalene is a Goddess?
Because that completely destroys Jesus' intermediation between God and humans.
The Christian God requires sole worship, while Wicca requires equal worship between the male and female deities. It just can't work without messing with the basics of either religion.

Not sure it would elevate Mary Magdalene to the status of Goddess - perhaps Mary, mother of Jesus. In either case, the "Christian Wiccan" has moved beyond simple, broad eclecticism into full-blown willful syncretism. And of course, if they begin to deny the syncretic and internally-contradicting nature of their path, we all know what that makes them.  

[Eshmasesh]

Henry Dorsett Case

Eshmasesh

Morphenius

I'm speculating in the dark here because I still need to hear what your definition of "Wicca" is. But the question still seems to stand: If Wicca holds that there is a specific God and a specific Goddess, why can't their offspring be Christ?

um...is that suggesting that Mary Magdalene is a Goddess?
Because that completely destroys Jesus' intermediation between God and humans.
The Christian God requires sole worship, while Wicca requires equal worship between the male and female deities. It just can't work without messing with the basics of either religion.

Not sure it would elevate Mary Magdalene to the status of Goddess - perhaps Mary, mother of Jesus. In either case, the "Christian Wiccan" has moved beyond simple, broad eclecticism into full-blown willful syncretism. And of course, if they begin to deny the syncretic and internally-contradicting nature of their path, we all know what that makes them.

I'm gonna have to look up that word now 3nodding
...how is that not implied? Wicca has a God/Goddess which require equal worship, and if the offspring of the God/Goddess is Jesus, and Mary Magdalene gave birth to Jesus...wouldn't that automatically mean Mary Magdalene is a god?