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 Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:41 pm
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Morphenius Oh dear. Well, I'll be much better capable of answering these comments if someone would be so kind as to tell me what this "Otherworld" is! My initial guess had been that it was another name for the astral plane, but your question, missmagpie, has now placed me in a state of pretty much perfect confusion. burning_eyes
Quote: My guess would be yes, I probably view them as the same because I don't usually view the astral plane as being layered (i.e. as being "planes"). I tend to view each experience in the astral as its own "pocket," so to speak. I'm coming to term these "dreamscapes" because of their fundamental similarity to dreams.
Quote: Right now, there is really no test that you can do to make sure that you're not dreaming. The Tibetian Buddhists have used this fact as a path to enlightenment for several millenia. They conclude that everything is a dream, and that by recognizing the illusory nature of reality by seeing that "all is mind-stuff" you can break out of the cycle of death and rebirth. They insist that the afterlife is itself a dreamlike state, and that therefore you need to master lucid dreaming while still alive in order to properly navigate the afterlife. I bring this up because there's a fundamental similarity between all forms of experience I'm aware of. People live in complete worlds. I personally suspect that this is foundational to how the human mind thinks. Consider, for instance, that when you look down at your keyboard what your eye actually sees is just light of various intensities and colors. What your fingers feel is just pressure and temperature. (If I recall correctly, the nervous system has different signals for those two aspects of "touch.") There is nothing inherent in the nature of those nervous signals to suggest that what you see and what you touch are the same. That coordination is purely mental. It's part of the cognitive construction of the complete world around you. In other words, you're in a dreamscape right now. You aren't experiencing anything physically real. You're experiencing your mind's synthesis of experience into meaningful patterns that form a kind of hologram - an experience whose parts make sense only in the context of the whole. (If you experienced the same pressures and temperatures of the keyboard but saw a piece of tinfoil instead, you wouldn't think you were touching a keyboard.) The key difference between the physical world and dreams is that the dreamscape formed of the physical world is given impetus by the physical senses. In a dream, everything is a creation of the mind.
I can't say I agree- in so much that the brain processes dreams and mysticism differently.
Ete has a wonderful essay on the matter- and I have seen the difference when I was working at the Capitol Radiology Department in contrast to the Mystic States examined in Ete's essay as well as the stint I did with DSHS.
Of note- none of these actually addressed Sacred Sleep, but they did include Lucid Dreaming.
Quote: What I propose is that when you're dreaming, you aren't actually in a total sensory deprivation state. Your physical senses are largely shut down for sure, but you're still receiving information in the way of flickering thoughts, global themes and so forth. Hence effects like precognitive dreams, shared dreams and the like.
This much I can agree on. However, given the appearence of an aura doesn't shift too much between awake and asleep.
However- there is a huge shift between OBE and Sleep.
Quote: Therefore, astral travel may very well be equivalent to dreaming. The difference is how much your dreamscape is formed by the paranormal perceptions received while in that dreaming state.
Perhaps this applies to specific forms of dreamwork? |
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Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:49 pm
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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:06 am
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TeaDidikai Morphenius Oh! I think I just made sense of this. When you're talking about when I "shift 'in line,'" do you mean to refer to when I Connect through the ZPF as per our last get-together? Yep. That would be what I am talking about. 3nodding
Ah, good!
One thing I've noticed again and again is that whether I'm dreaming, lucidly dreaming, astrally projecting or whathaveyou, Connecting seems to give me more control. If I'm having trouble flying, Connecting fixes that. If I'm not sure I'll make it while running to a closing gate, Connecting guarantees that I can if I want to. If the dream is fading away, Connecting makes it easier to restabilize.
So, I would posit that the Connecting effect you feel in Otherworld travels may well be a developed habit necessary for successful navigation. Otherwise you get swept along whatever currents your subconscious mind feels like taking.
That's only a guess, though. And yes, I agree with you that in astral travels there does tend to be a more rich element to Connecting than when in-body.
(Again, for everyone else, I promise I'll explain what "Connecting" is - but not just right now.)
TeaDidikai Otherworld = Generic term for non-corporeal reality when I use it.
Hmm. Thank you. I think, then, that missmagpie's definition is different than yours since her question was whether I view astral travel and Otherworld travel as equivalent. neutral
TeaDidikai Did this by chance stem from that discussion we had with Mary about Yesode?
Huh. I had actually completely forgotten about that. I don't remember the content of that discussion, so I suppose it's possible.
Consciously, though, this idea was derived from the Temple's Eighth Law of Magic. In trying to make sense of it in the context of the rest of the Temple's paradigm, I concluded that the only difference between various dreams - including this one - was the number of people present. In talking to Templar folk, this seems to be what they think. Unfortunately they can't seem to answer one fairly straightfoward question: Why is it that people here count as "others" while people I meet in dreams don't? And why is it that only some of those I meet while astrally projected count as "others"? Most of them have just shrugged and said, "I don't know, but it works." stare
TeaDidikai I can't say I agree- in so much that the brain processes dreams and mysticism differently. Ete has a wonderful essay on the matter- and I have seen the difference when I was working at the Capitol Radiology Department in contrast to the Mystic States examined in Ete's essay as well as the stint I did with DSHS. Of note- none of these actually addressed Sacred Sleep, but they did include Lucid Dreaming.
Do you mean to refer to things like MRI scans of people going through various experiences? If so, that certainly seems like relevant evidence.
What strikes me is the fact that the astral worlds behave so very much like especially stable lucid dreams. There's even the tendency to simply snap back to your body (or wake up, depending on your viewpoint) if you think about your body laying in bed. I don't know anything about brain imaging in this context, but the number of similarities between these two is just too staggering to ignore.
My supposition would be that the brain processes information derived from different sources differently. You'll interact with the world differently if it's entirely your creation than if you're sort of "tapping into" the structure of another dreamscape.
TeaDidikai This much I can agree on. However, given the appearence of an aura doesn't shift too much between awake and asleep. However- there is a huge shift between OBE and Sleep.
Hmm. Well, I really can't say anything for or against aura. You see them, I don't. But what exactly is being seen when someone sees an aura? The aura could well be the body image the nervous system projects into the flesh to coordinate different systems. If that's the case, then when the brain processes information from a dreamscape not of its own creation it will tend to alter the degree and nature of the body-image projection into the physical body since the body-image is needed in the astral world.
If I remember correctly, this is supported by various accounts of astral travelers who report being "points of pure observation." In this case they lack the body image. There are also some astral worlds that don't seem to allow body images at all.
I'm not pulling the idea of a body image out my @$$, by the way. This is one of the main conclusions of work done on the nature of an electrical circulatory system discovered in the body in the late 20th century by Dr. Robert Becker and others. In essence, this body image is necessary for salamandars to regenerate lost limbs, tails and so forth. Otherwise the information of what should regrow is lost. It's known now that this information can be altered or interfered with so that the regrowth is similarly altered or stopped. (This can result in salalmandars growing a leg where they lost a tail, for instance.) This information can also be enhanced in critters like frogs and rats to cause them to regenerate like salamandars do.
TeaDidikai Perhaps this applies to specific forms of dreamwork?
Well, of that I'm certain! wink
But I think what you mean to ask is whether what I'm talking about only applies to dreamwork and doesn't actually address "Otherworld travels."
To that I simply don't know the answer. I'm posing a hypothesis that says this isn't the case, that basically all experiences are dreams of one sort or another. I'm currently working on ways to test that hypothesis. It could well be totally bogus, but it seems worthwhile.
missmagpie Actually, I think by the time I got there I had completely forgotten my question. But that's a good thing. I've never seen so much coherent discourse on Astral travel concentrated in one place before.
biggrin Thank you!
missmagpie Just a question, where and when were these studies you refer to done? Would there be any way of acquiring them for a curious reader?
I think the single best summary of this stuff is captured in the book The Field by Lynne McTaggart. She covers the work done in physics to unify most of the forces of physics, summarizes the most relevant parapsychological research done since 1970, and offers a potential explanation for the latter in terms of the former. I've caught her making a few blatant errors, but it's clear to me that those errors come from a non-scientist describing scientific details she has only heard described to her. I know from past readings and encounters that her resources are good.
Two particular books she pulls from are The Conscious Universe by Dean Radin and The Holographic Universe by Michael Talbot. The former is an explanation for laypeople of the statistical techniques used to determine, beyond any fathomably doubt, that psychic phenomena very well do exist in some form. The types particularly investigated include telepathy, clairvoyance ("remote viewing"), precognition, postcognition, telekinesis, distance healing, and the effect of mass awareness on an area or event.
I'm still reading The Holgraphic Universe. It's an explanation of the brainchild conceived between David Bohm and Karl Pribram. The idea is that the physical world is a hologram - an image whose individual parts are inseparable from the whole because every part contains information about the whole. The book shows how Bohm & Pribram offered a plausible explanation for quantum phenomena, but then it goes on to explain a great deal of other phenomena - including the paranormal.
(I still suggest starting with McTaggart's book, though.)
On the nature of lucid dreaming and how it connects to astral travel, I suggest looking at the work of Dr. Stephen LaBerge at The Lucidity Institute. I've read through most of LaBerge's book Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming, but that's his "how-to" manual. His book Lucid Dreaming goes into more theory. He also has a great deal of valuable material on his website.
William Buhlman's Adventures Beyond the Body is one of the cleanest resources on astral travel I've yet encountered. There are others worthy of note such as Robert Bruce, but Buhlman's approach is almost entirely empirical. He has compiled some of the best anectodal information on OBE's I've yet seen and manages to largely avoid steeping it in too much theory. Bruce, by contrast, has fallen into the "multiple bodies" hypothesis and claims that no astral projection should be allowed to carry on for more than about five minutes lest you fail to remember it. rolleyes
Finally, regarding the "body image" thing I mentioned above, I would suggest looking at The Body Electric by Dr. Robert Becker and Gary Zelden. It tells the tale of an orthopedist who accidentally trips over the electrical nature of regeneration in trying to find out why some people's bones knit while others' don't. His experiments and conclusions are well worth reading. Although he doesn't go into it, this offers a potential explanation for why some forms of hands-on healing do what they do.
There's another doctor in Stockholm, Sweden who derived many of Dr. Becker's conclusions independently through clinical studies. His name is Bjorn Nordenstrom. He showed, among other things, a potential cure for cancer that involves about a week of intermittant use of electrodes on tumors with something like a 70% success rate. Unfortunately, Dr. Nordenstrom hasn't written anything for the wider populus. The only cheap and intelligible article on him is in some magazine from back in the 1980's (I think Time, but it could have been Scientific American; it was the front cover story at the time).
Does that cover everything I mentioned? |
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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:12 pm
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Morphenius Ah, good! One thing I've noticed again and again is that whether I'm dreaming, lucidly dreaming, astrally projecting or whathaveyou, Connecting seems to give me more control. If I'm having trouble flying, Connecting fixes that. If I'm not sure I'll make it while running to a closing gate, Connecting guarantees that I can if I want to. If the dream is fading away, Connecting makes it easier to restabilize. So, I would posit that the Connecting effect you feel in Otherworld travels may well be a developed habit necessary for successful navigation. Otherwise you get swept along whatever currents your subconscious mind feels like taking. That's only a guess, though. And yes, I agree with you that in astral travels there does tend to be a more rich element to Connecting than when in-body. (Again, for everyone else, I promise I'll explain what "Connecting" is - but not just right now.)
You do OEB while "awake" without Connecting? confused
Quote: Hmm. Thank you. I think, then, that missmagpie's definition is different than yours since her question was whether I view astral travel and Otherworld travel as equivalent. neutral
Quote: Why is it that people here count as "others" while people I meet in dreams don't? And why is it that only some of those I meet while astrally projected count as "others"? Most of them have just shrugged and said, "I don't know, but it works." stare
In the corporeal realm, people count as others because this is the primary focus and there is direct awareness of the rules of the game.
In the dreams, people do not count as others because they are not using direct awareness- unless lucid dreaming.
While "AP", only some count as others because of raw ability/talent/skill/practice- by fusing awareness with unawareness much like a lucid dream. Unlike a dream however- when intentional AP is done, it is going to a "common ground".
Quote: Do you mean to refer to things like MRI scans of people going through various experiences? If so, that certainly seems like relevant evidence.
Quote: Hmm. Well, I really can't say anything for or against aura. You see them, I don't. Quote: But what exactly is being seen when someone sees an aura? The aura could well be the body image the nervous system projects into the flesh to coordinate different systems. If that's the case, then when the brain processes information from a dreamscape not of its own creation it will tend to alter the degree and nature of the body-image projection into the physical body since the body-image is needed in the astral world. If I remember correctly, this is supported by various accounts of astral travelers who report being "points of pure observation." In this case they lack the body image. There are also some astral worlds that don't seem to allow body images at all. I'm not pulling the idea of a body image out my @$$, by the way. This is one of the main conclusions of work done on the nature of an electrical circulatory system discovered in the body in the late 20th century by Dr. Robert Becker and others. In essence, this body image is necessary for salamandars to regenerate lost limbs, tails and so forth. Otherwise the information of what should regrow is lost. It's known now that this information can be altered or interfered with so that the regrowth is similarly altered or stopped. (This can result in salalmandars growing a leg where they lost a tail, for instance.) This information can also be enhanced in critters like frogs and rats to cause them to regenerate like salamandars do. |
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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:34 pm
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Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:03 pm
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TeaDidikai Pause. You do OEB while "awake" without Connecting? confused
Note quite sure what you mean by "awake" here. I never OBE while walking around.
But yes, sometimes I've ended up out-of-body without Connecting. They're usually short trips and they usually have fairly low levels of control.
TeaDidikai Morphenius Hmm. Thank you. I think, then, that missmagpie's definition is different than yours since her question was whether I view astral travel and Otherworld travel as equivalent. neutral I think she was asking if Lucid Dreaming and Otherworld Travel is the same in your book.
Right. But if the Otherword and the astral world are the same, how could I fail to answer "yes" to that question? It would be kind of like asking whether I consider going for a walk outside and walking outdoors the same. xp
TeaDidikai Morphenius Why is it that people here count as "others" while people I meet in dreams don't? And why is it that only some of those I meet while astrally projected count as "others"? Most of them have just shrugged and said, "I don't know, but it works." stare In the corporeal realm, people count as others because this is the primary focus and there is direct awareness of the rules of the game. In the dreams, people do not count as others because they are not using direct awareness- unless lucid dreaming. While "AP", only some count as others because of raw ability/talent/skill/practice- by fusing awareness with unawareness much like a lucid dream. Unlike a dream however- when intentional AP is done, it is going to a "common ground".
I think you and I are talking about slightly different things.
When I walk up to someone physically and chat with them, there is some sense in which they're "really there."
If I do the same thing in a dream, the other person is just my creation.
Why? What's the difference?
If you're actually answering that question, then what I read from your answer is, "Because the physical world is different." That is one solution, but I'm still not sure what would be different about the physical world.
Part of the problem is that you can never really tell when you're in the physical world. You can know with reasonable certainty, but there's always a not-insignificant chance that you're just dreaming.
TeaDidikai Morphenius Do you mean to refer to things like MRI scans of people going through various experiences? If so, that certainly seems like relevant evidence. It's neat stuff. Poke Ete, I am sure if you mention you like cats and are my friend he would be more than happy to provide the information for the basis of Mystic experiences.
Okay. Who's Ete?
TeaDidikai You know- I had been pretty much keeping that to myself more or less. sweatdrop
redface Sorry!
TeaDidikai I understand. Just explaining why I'm not inclined to agree.
Which is always appreciated! This kind of thing is so much more interesting when people respectfully disagree and are willing to discuss it. It would be so boring if everyone just thought I was right!
Eshmasesh The concept of OBE confuses me, the whole being conscious while unconscious scenario. I'm still trying to figure out "regular" dreaming, much less lucid dreaming.
The usual way of thinking about it, as I understand, is this: You are not your body. You are actually a spirit of sorts who uses your body to navigate the material plane. When you go out-of-body, what you're doing is leaving your "flesh suit" to see parts of the universe that the body cannot perceive for you. Your body is no more you than the clothes you wore yesterday. But to explore the astral planes, you need to "unplug" from your body in a sense, which means that you have to stop seeing through your body. Thus the body has to "shut down," or go unconscious in some fashion.
Various traditions will phrase it differently, but the basic idea is the same.
Does that help? |
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Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:28 pm
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Morphenius But yes, sometimes I've ended up out-of-body without Connecting. They're usually short trips and they usually have fairly low levels of control.
Maybe I am not groking what you mean by Connecting then. I had likened it to the shift I experience when I do- well, anything you have known me to do. sweatdrop
Quote: Right. But if the Otherword and the astral world are the same, how could I fail to answer "yes" to that question? It would be kind of like asking whether I consider going for a walk outside and walking outdoors the same. xp
Quote: I think you and I are talking about slightly different things. When I walk up to someone physically and chat with them, there is some sense in which they're "really there." If I do the same thing in a dream, the other person is just my creation. Why? What's the difference? If you're actually answering that question, then what I read from your answer is, "Because the physical world is different." That is one solution, but I'm still not sure what would be different about the physical world. Part of the problem is that you can never really tell when you're in the physical world. You can know with reasonable certainty, but there's always a not-insignificant chance that you're just dreaming.
Well, how do you know you are not this cookie Hun?
As you can in a lucid dream experience the dream person inside and out, and you cannot experience a physical person inside and out- they have a distinct awareness.
Ete is ish ish am are mew a lot.
Quote: Which is always appreciated! This kind of thing is so much more interesting when people respectfully disagree and are willing to discuss it. It would be so boring if everyone just thought I was right! |
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Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:07 pm
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TeaDidikai Maybe I am not groking what you mean by Connecting then. I had likened it to the shift I experience when I do- well, anything you have known me to do. sweatdrop
It might be the same thing. I'll run you through the experience if you like. It's a very particular one, and you can learn to summon it at will after less than an hour. Technically it should take all of five minutes, but I tend to talk an awful lot. sweatdrop
TeaDidikai Morphenius Right. But if the Otherword and the astral world are the same, how could I fail to answer "yes" to that question? It would be kind of like asking whether I consider going for a walk outside and walking outdoors the same. xp However, not all of us view Lucid Dreaming and Otherworld Travels to be the same.
I understand that. However, apparently some people here view Otherworld travels and astral travels as being somehow different. That part confuses me.
TeaDidikai Well, how do you know you are not this cookie Hun?
I think that's a slightly different question. I know I'm not the cookie because I can experience the cookie. If I may assume that the experiencer is different from that which is experienced, I may define "me" to be the experiencer and thus distinguish myself from the cookie.
That doesn't tell me whether the cookie is a dream or not. sweatdrop
TeaDidikai As you can in a lucid dream experience the dream person inside and out, and you cannot experience a physical person inside and out- they have a distinct awareness.
You can never know what you are incapable of. You can only demonstrate that you are capable of some things.
Furthermore, the existence of telepathy seems to suggest that I can be aware of people "inside and out" even if they are physical and independent beings.
TeaDidikai Morphenius Which is always appreciated! This kind of thing is so much more interesting when people respectfully disagree and are willing to discuss it. It would be so boring if everyone just thought I was right! Ummmm... ~reconsiders... doesn't make direct snarky remarks about you, Jeff, Sully, Lacy et al and a messiah complex, instead makes indirect remarks and hopes she isn't smited~ wink
No smiting necessary. I've enjoyed my weird past and, more importantly, have grown from it. cool |
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Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:02 am
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Morphenius Quote: Dose anyone have any good methods on how to astral project? Yes. wink Seriously, I'm personally coming to wonder how much of astral projection is a form of semi-lucid dreaming. This is the same conclusion that Dr. Stephen LaBerge of the Lucidity Institute came to in his research on lucid dreaming: Out-of-body experiences and lucid dreams.Most techniques for inducing astral projections are in almost perfect parallel to the methods of inducing lucid dreams from a waking state described in a variety of literature, including LaBerge's Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming and the older manuscripts on Tibetian dream yoga. Pretty much all of them have a specific format:
You have to want it. Just being faintly curious or only occasionally working on it won't do you any good. You have to actually work for it on a daily basis.
You need to work on recall. People like Robert Bruce claim that poor memory is simply a function of the out-of-body experience (OBE), but various others including myself have found that working on dream recall helps immensely with remembering one's experiences while "astrally projected."
Get plenty of sleep. If you're tired while you try to induce, you'll probably just fall asleep. Napping helps. (Again, LaBerge has something to say about the power of napping and why he thinks it works. The most powerful technique seems to be waking yourself up one hour before you would normally get up, doing your morning routine for an hour, and then going back to bed while doing some kind of induction technique.)
Learn how to concentrate on just one thing at a time without intention. Learn how to just look without either allowing your mind to wander or trying to influence what you're looking at. Meditation practices can help with this.
Watch your hypnagogic imagery as you fall asleep. (That's the imagery that flashes before your eyes while you're falling asleep.) Don't try to stare at it. Learn to watch it with "soft eyes." Just watch. If you do this too intentionally you'll shatter the imagery and break your induction.
Get used to reading something, looking away and then reading that same thing again first thing once you get out of bed. This is important because when you finally do "astrally project" you'll probably think you're walking around physically. In an OBE there's a tendency for written words to swim around and change when you look away and then look back at them. This will help test whether you're actually out-of-body.
Best as I can tell, anything extra is unnecessary and usually based on some kind of religious belief. I've been getting about one OBE a week doing this and the frequency is increasing. It's a skill you can harness - with daily effort. I hope that helps! biggrin
In my order we are of the belief that OBE's are a natural state of the condition of life. Which is why often animals and other life forms are found to be traveling when you are. That being our bases we don't believe that any degree of "want" is needed or even any degree of training. This is why you often hear the account of the person who take the warm bath or is relaxing in the back yard or even on the operating table, that suddenly notices that the are looking at themselves from without themselves. This is because (as far as we believe) that for that moment they came close to or did do what is most in their nature to do. In other words to become one with nature is to reach outside the bounds of the physical and even the astral realm is a natural realm so you would be able to exist there. This realm in contrast is unnatural so entering your computer and existing here would contradict nature. I hope you follow LOL |
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