OH DAMN IT

[Molly Mollusca]

TeaDidikai

Elfin Brill

Green tea then? wink

~cookie~
Okay- so, are you thinking of Camellia sinensis or Camellia assamica?

Both can be green tea- as a tea's color is a function of process, not of plant.

Oh... Umm... confused

TeaDidikai in her pathway section

Camellia sinensis is my favorite of the two. It's subtle nature allows the process to give the tea different characters.

This one then... razz
 

[TeaDidikai]

Elfin Brill

TeaDidikai

Elfin Brill

Green tea then? wink

~cookie~
Okay- so, are you thinking of Camellia sinensis or Camellia assamica?

Both can be green tea- as a tea's color is a function of process, not of plant.

Oh... Umm... confused

TeaDidikai in her pathway section

Camellia sinensis is my favorite of the two. It's subtle nature allows the process to give the tea different characters.

This one then... razz

Looks like assamica. Without a picture of the whole of the plant, I cannot say for sure.

However, it also would depend on the way it is brewed. Brewing it without awakening the leaves would be very bad for a woman on her cycle who is already having the issues Triste has expressed.  

[TeaDidikai]

Nuri

hmmm, I read it different.

Then again, I tend to put IRAB=idiots without experience, when experience matters more.

reagun ban

Never let it be said I wouldn't be as good as my word.
Janet Farrar and Stuart Bone are on the "IRAB" Wiccan side.
"We, personally, do not believe there is any difference between the words witch and Wiccan"

I know lots of witches who are idiots. See no reason why Janet is saying they don't count... ignore the fact that I count Janet amongst them.  

[Molly Mollusca]

She is not the only one, I know of at least one other (Alexandrian) Highpriestess (with at least 20 years under the belt) who says that.

HPS in question

Hier zijn al zoveel discussies over gevoerd, maar geloof me, ik weet het zelf ook niet (meer)
Vroeger als je was ingewijd in een coven mocht je jezelf heks noemen, dat was een eretitel.
We noemden onzelf geen wicca want wicca was de religie van de heksen.
Lees het boek van Vivianne Crowley dat heet " Wicca the old religion in a new age "
Tegenwoordig zie ik op forums zoveel mensen die zich heks noemen of erger nog heksjes evil evil dat ik het eerlijk gezegd ook niet meer weet.
Ik ben dus een heks en als anderen zich ook heks willen noemen, prima, maar voor mij heeft het woord een heel andere betekenis.
Voor mij is een heks nog steeds een initiate.

(losely translated as: "There are so many discussions about this [the differance between Witch and Wicca, note me.] but believe me, I am not so sure myself either (anymore).
In the old days when you were initiated in a coven you could call yourself a witch, it was a honoured title.
We did not call ourselves wicca, because wicca was the religion of the witches. Read the book of Viviane Crowley that is called:" Wicca, the old religion in a new age"
Nowadays I see at forums a lot of people who call themselves witch or what is worse "little" witches evil evil that I just don't know anymore.
I am a witch and if other people call themselves witches, that is fine too, but for me the word has a differant meaning.
To me a witch is still an initiate.")

For her the word witch and wicca are the same, just like Janet and Gavin say.

At the forum of where she speak these words, there is a set deffinition of wicca and the word witch. They are set out by a Garderian couple who were responsible of bringing Garderian wicca to the Netherlands 27 years ago.

1. Wicca: Een ingewijde in de wicca, een natuurreligie waarin ook magie en volksmagie wordt gebruikt. Technisch ben je dan priester/es EN heks, beide. [Wicca: An Initiate in the wicca, a naturereligion where also magic and folkmagic play a role. Technicly you are a priest/tess AND witch at the same time]
2. Heks (antropologisch): Iemand die volksmagie gebruikt ten eigen voordele of om anderen te schaden (volksmagie, negatief)
[Witch (anthopologic) : Someone who uses folkmagic to their advantage or to harm others. (folkmagic negative)]
3. Heks (Moderne Hekserij): Iemand die volksmagie gebruikt maar uit de wicca het idee heeft overgenomen dat je als heks ook ten goede k**t werken, b.v. door inachtneming van de Wiccan Rede (volksmagie, positief)
[Witch (modern witchcraft) : Someone who uses folksmagic, but from the thought of wicca that you as witch can do good, for example by holding the wiccan rede in mind. (folksmagic, positive) ]

Here again the view that if you are initiated you are witch and wicca at the same time.

Does this help? Or do I fail to see the problem correctly? confused

Oh, a nice podcast interview of the couple in question. Here!
And their definition of wicca! eek I think that some pagans would stongly dislike the thought of being thrown into the wicca group!  

[Molly Mollusca]

TeaDidikai

Looks like assamica. Without a picture of the whole of the plant, I cannot say for sure.

However, it also would depend on the way it is brewed. Brewing it without awakening the leaves would be very bad for a woman on her cycle who is already having the issues Triste has expressed.

I got the picture here.

I am not an expert in tea, like you, so I had to trust in google.  

[Starlock]

eek (dies of shock)

This one has mostly one thing to say on the issue...

... it's about darned time... stare sweatdrop

And secondly... what this one proposed quite some time ago in terms of writing a Wiccan FAQ... is to divide (roughly) the movement into the two categories... one being the one espoused in the original FAQ (Traditional) and the other the 'everything else' category (Dedicatory/Progressive). That 'everything else' category could probably do with some subdivisions; not sure how that would be done though.  

[maenad nuri]

I'm starting to think that the Wicca/Witch thing is a matter of age. I mostly see older Wiccans asserting that they are the same. Perhaps, and this is totally unfounded, the development and uncovering of other witchcraft traditions has changed that.

That's something I can see happening over time, and something that may be harder for an older generation to forget.

(I'm also still saying that Initated Wicca is a Priesthood, and Dedicated Wicca is a layman group, and they just haven't figured out how to exist and serve each other yet-seems also another progression to me, but then, I have zip authority....I guess)  

[TeaDidikai]

Starlock

... it's about darned time... stare sweatdrop

Don't gloat.

It's not polite, nor did you add much of anything to the shift.

Elfin Brill>> It's the artistic representation. The darker leaves threw me off.  

[Starlock]

TeaDidikai

Starlock

... it's about darned time... stare sweatdrop

Don't gloat.

It's not polite, nor did you add much of anything to the shift.

Elfin Brill>> It's the artistic representation. The darker leaves threw me off.

Wasn't intending to come off as gloating. I think I'd characterize my sentiment at the moment more along the lines of relief. Relieved that, people who disagree with the formerly popular opinion on Wicca won't have to put up with bashing and flaming any longer. That was always my biggest gripe with the whole argument; it was creating 'us' vs 'them' and an awful lot of anger between groups. Infighting among Neopagans makes this one a tad sad... though it can't be avoided entirely, of course.

But I will admit that I'm amused that the position I've stuck to from the begining (ie, making a *distinction* between Traditional and Dedicatory forms) has now become the way to go.

Plus, I thought it was common sense that there are linaged individuals who accept non-initiate Wiccans as Wiccan. It honestly never crossed my mind to bring that up.  

[TeaDidikai]

Starlock

Wasn't intending to come off as gloating. I think I'd characterize my sentiment at the moment more along the lines of relief. Relieved that, people who disagree with the formerly popular opinion on Wicca won't have to put up with bashing and flaming any longer. That was always my biggest gripe with the whole argument; it was creating 'us' vs 'them' and an awful lot of anger between groups. Infighting among Neopagans makes this one a tad sad... though it can't be avoided entirely, of course.

1) You still haven't gotten it. The popular opinion is the hodgepodge IRAB Wiccan attitude.

The authority had been unpopular.

2) People are only flamed after attempts at using reason fail- if they were flamed at all.

3) There is an Us v. Them attitude because you have ignorant people bastardizing theology.

Bastardize anything and you'll create an Us v. Them stance- and rightly so.

Why in the name of all things cute and fuzzy did you side with the IRAB Wiccans instead of giving instruction that the authority was representing the theology accurately and thus instructing those who did not know about the nature of the faith to learn through lineaged covens?

Oh- that's right- it's because your opinion is sacred and anyone who dares to disagree with you isn't worthy.

Quote:

But I will admit that I'm amused that the position I've stuck to from the begining (ie, making a *distinction* between Traditional and Dedicatory forms) has now become the way to go.

Amhika.

Quote:

Plus, I thought it was common sense that there are linaged individuals who accept non-initiate Wiccans as Wiccan. It honestly never crossed my mind to bring that up.

I know it never crossed your mind. That's why your lackluster arguments annoyed those of us who were trying to fight for the position within the rules of proper debate.  

[Fiddlers Green]

~sipps Chrysanthemum Tisane, noting that, no matter what changes, somehow, in some ways, things will always remain the same.~  

[Gideon Starorzewski]

Okay so I've been under the impression for a while now that Wicca, when discussing the lineaged covens, is a mystery religion in that the sacred texts and rituals are not available for public consumption, hence Gardner's fixation on not revealing secrets under torture and all that. So in order for there to be these so called non initiated Wiccans to exist, either they're subsisting on theological table scraps or there's been a breach and all of the material that was meant to be secret is not. Which of the above is true?

Bear in mind that I've not taken a side, nor do I plan on doing so. I'm taking the stance of a curious observer on the topic.  

[TeaDidikai]

Fiddlers Green

~sipps Chrysanthemum Tisane, noting that, no matter what changes, somehow, in some ways, things will always remain the same.~

Have I told you how much I love you? heart  

[Triste-chan]

For the record, a lot of this contradicts what I said, like, two days ago. Sue me. I was menstruating and packing to go to camp. And being a nitwit. PRETEND I NEVER SAID IT.

Starlock

TeaDidikai

Starlock

... it's about darned time... stare sweatdrop

Don't gloat.

It's not polite, nor did you add much of anything to the shift.

Elfin Brill>> It's the artistic representation. The darker leaves threw me off.

Wasn't intending to come off as gloating. I think I'd characterize my sentiment at the moment more along the lines of relief. Relieved that, people who disagree with the formerly popular opinion on Wicca won't have to put up with bashing and flaming any longer. That was always my biggest gripe with the whole argument; it was creating 'us' vs 'them' and an awful lot of anger between groups. Infighting among Neopagans makes this one a tad sad... though it can't be avoided entirely, of course.

The problem is that the 'us' and 'them that you're refering to is really 'morons' versus 'not morons.' For instance, Tea is not one of the 'them' because, you know, she's not a moron. Even though she disagreed, she had an actual reason to disagree that made sense. Unlike you.

Quote:

But I will admit that I'm amused that the position I've stuck to from the begining (ie, making a *distinction* between Traditional and Dedicatory forms) has now become the way to go.

Yeah. Too bad the reason you stood by your position was moronic and juvenile. You know, it's kind of like a person believing in evolution because magical fairies from Bandark told them it was true. They're right, but they're still idiots.

Quote:

Plus, I thought it was common sense that there are linaged individuals who accept non-initiate Wiccans as Wiccan. It honestly never crossed my mind to bring that up.

It is certainly not common sense that Doreen Valiente, who was every bit as involved in the creation of Wicca as Gardner, is on your side. I would recommend that you do not pretend that it is. You didn't know that this was the case, or you would have brought it up. If you are looking to piss me off, jumping on Tea's victory, which was hard earned and deserved, and acting as if you knew it all along is really the way to go. It's insulting to me and to Tea, to dismiss it as something obvious that only petty morons would fail to immediately see.

In other news, I do not concede that IRABs can be considered Wiccan, nor do I think that anyone who practices witchcraft can be considered Wiccan. Whether or not Farrar thinks that seems again to be largely irrelevant. If initiation is not a requirement, fine. Gardner never explicitly said that it was - it was assumed logically from what he said about the nature of Wicca, and with nothing to contradict it, I feel that I had a sturdy base for claiming that. Of course, with the revelation that Valiente opposed this idea, it obviously falls apart. There are, however, things that Gardner did very explicitly explain about the nature of Wicca, and not all witches fit into that definition.

The bottom line is that I don't really see that Farrar's opinion on anything matters any more than Ravenwolf's unless that opinion is backed by someone with actual authority on the subject.

There is still a large group of people who I do not consider to be Wiccan:

- People who do not worship the Lord and Lady. For the record, I do NOT consider the Lord and Lady to be Bradley-esque "All Gods are one God, all Goddesses are one Goddess" figures. Gardner's writing rather clearly supports this, although of course, What Gardner Said is down so I can't get the exact quote which I think best outlines this. I believe the gist of it was that various other groups worshipped the divine through such-and-such deity, but the Wica worshipped through the Lord and Lady in particular. Gardner also made a distinction between those who worshipped the Lord and Lay and other similar occult groups who worshipped other gods.

- People who do not believe in reincarnation. I actually have the quote for this one in my notes, because I am super amazing:

Quote:

The Observer survey revealed that half of those who believe in an after-life 'believe explicitly in reincarnation' - which is a fundamental tenet of the Wica.

Note the word 'fundamental.'

- And here's the one that will probably make Starlock cry: People who are not clergy. Valiente said that strict adherence to lineage and exact mysteries is nonsense. That's a long ******** way from saying it's okay to be 'Solitary' or 'layman,' (and I'll admit that I misread this at first, partly due to pre-conceived notions of what was coming and partly out of shock) which is what the IRAB side is saying. And Gardner did specifically say that Wiccans were priests and priestesses of a fertility cult.

This is the old argument Tea and I were having about 'Witch Cults' (with specific guidelines like worship of the Lord and Lady and whatnot, all the things I said above, etc.) and the Witch cults that have a specific lineage back to Gardner and the same mysteries. This is not, Starlock, the argument you and I have been having about letting anyone who feels like pissing off mommy and daddy be called Wiccan.

Sorry to rain on your parade.  

[TeaDidikai]

Because I can....

TeaDidikai

Phoenixfire Lune Soleil

Yeah, this is the part I can't get my head around... are we saying that anyone who practices Witchcraft has the right to call themselves Wiccan if they wish? (But don't have to if they aren't actually Wiccan, and thus aren't Wiccan just for being a Witch)?
I hope so because it sounds a bit too close to "all Witches are Wiccan" >.>
Just to clarify...

I wouldn't say that.

There are five things I now believe to be important aspects to the nature and application of the word Wicca- both come directly from Gardner himself.

First...

G. Gardner

Of course, the Craft of the Wica is not the only group which seeks to contact the Gods. There are other occult groups which use a similar technique, and their aims are the same, namely to bring through the Divine power to help, guide and uplift mankind at this dangerous and exciting turning-point in human history.

But, so far as I know, these groups generally work with the Egyptian and Greek Gods and Goddesses, and I cannot think that these contacts are as powerful here as they would be upon their native soil;

Second...

G. Gardner

The Observer survey revealed that half of those who believe in an after-life 'believe explicitly in reincarnation' - which is a fundamental tenet of the Wica, as it happens; the religion which is called the 'old faith' by the witches

Third....

G. Gardner

The Wica seem to have been taught certain beliefs, most probably by the Kabalists, which they have incorporated into their own.

Fourth...

G. Gardner

The Priests and Priestesses who directed these festivals were called the Wica, meaning 'The Wise Ones',

Fifth...

G. Gardner

The fertility cult represented by the group in which Gardner had now been enrolled is one of these religions, claims to be the oldest, is called by its members the Wica.

While Gardner did say that "these now are the witches of today", I can note that a number of faiths are excluded by this.

I think it is fair to say based on Gardner's words- that one must Worship the Lord and Lady of Wicca, who are by his words, Deities of the Isles. I would go so far as to state one must worship them exclusively to be Wiccan. For- stepping outside of that realm, one would most certainly be an Eclectic Pagan.

That one must be one of their Priests or Priestesses to be considered Wiccan.

That what one serves as, is a Priest or Priestess of the Wiccan Lord and Lady's Fertility Cult.

That there are Kabalistic Influences in the practice.

One must believe in Reincarnation.

Now- We have just cut a number of Recon groups, all of the Eclectic Neo-Pagan community and a handful of long standing pagan faiths from the running as well as Folk Tradition based Witchcults.

Further- one must consider themselves both Wiccan and a Witch.