Without definition?

[Dultae]

Sephiroths samurai girl

Sheltigrrl

I personally dislike the seme/uke idea quite a bit. I think it reinforces the stereotype that there MUST be a Man and a Woman in a relationship--whether there's actually a female or not--and not only is unrealistic, it also reinforces the idea that women have a specific place in a relationship. Basically, it says that there can only be one kind of relationship: dominant (man) and submissive (woman).

One word for that: sexist.

But the terms are there to show who is the man and who is the female in the relationship, not to give the idea of such a stereotype.

People have to remember Yaoi and BL was never made to be true to actual homosexual relationships, its a heterosexual relationship but made to appear more equal by having the woman replaced by a man. Hence why BL is not aimed at homosexual men but women.

In Japan women are seen as being inferior to men in relationships, so the idea of BL was created to let women read about romantic relationships that are portrayed as being somewhat more equal by there being two men instead of a man and a woman.
The terms seme and uke don't reffer to who is the more dominant but who is the giver of the technique [seme] and who is the reciever [uke].
Seeing as the woman can never be the "giver" in sex she would have to be the uke.

What you write sounds a lot more like gei-comi than anything. Gei-comi is somewhat like yaoi in being graphic but stops there. It doesn't have "bishies" and definitely doesn't have the seme/uke characters.
If you look in Gei-comi none of the series have these labels. Why? Because gei-comi series show a more accurate portrayal of a homosexual relationship. It isn't just a hetero relationship changed but real homosexual relationships.
You'd never see a series with characters like Ayase and Kanou from No Money in gei-comi.

Hope I explained that well enough. ^^

Y'know, you're right, and I know you're right. I think a lot of this is then just personal taste--I tend to just be more interested in more developed, realistic love stories. xD; (Because I don't read flat romance a lot anyway.)

But then it stands to be wondered about (because my grasp of English is just sooo good rolleyes ) if BL fans would accept a gei-comi (new word for me :3) story as a "good story," and I think that was the topic of the thread anyway.

(...and I know quite a few straight relationships where the woman is most definitely the dominant one. o_o;; But that's another topic.)

(Sorry if this isn't totally coherent, I'm running on maybe 1.5 hours of sleep. xD)

(Ph34r t3h parentheses.)  

[KonstantinJ]

Sheltigrrl

Sephiroths samurai girl

Sheltigrrl

I personally dislike the seme/uke idea quite a bit. I think it reinforces the stereotype that there MUST be a Man and a Woman in a relationship--whether there's actually a female or not--and not only is unrealistic, it also reinforces the idea that women have a specific place in a relationship. Basically, it says that there can only be one kind of relationship: dominant (man) and submissive (woman).

One word for that: sexist.

But the terms are there to show who is the man and who is the female in the relationship, not to give the idea of such a stereotype.

People have to remember Yaoi and BL was never made to be true to actual homosexual relationships, its a heterosexual relationship but made to appear more equal by having the woman replaced by a man. Hence why BL is not aimed at homosexual men but women.

In Japan women are seen as being inferior to men in relationships, so the idea of BL was created to let women read about romantic relationships that are portrayed as being somewhat more equal by there being two men instead of a man and a woman.
The terms seme and uke don't reffer to who is the more dominant but who is the giver of the technique [seme] and who is the reciever [uke].
Seeing as the woman can never be the "giver" in sex she would have to be the uke.

What you write sounds a lot more like gei-comi than anything. Gei-comi is somewhat like yaoi in being graphic but stops there. It doesn't have "bishies" and definitely doesn't have the seme/uke characters.
If you look in Gei-comi none of the series have these labels. Why? Because gei-comi series show a more accurate portrayal of a homosexual relationship. It isn't just a hetero relationship changed but real homosexual relationships.
You'd never see a series with characters like Ayase and Kanou from No Money in gei-comi.

Hope I explained that well enough. ^^

Y'know, you're right, and I know you're right. I think a lot of this is then just personal taste--I tend to just be more interested in more developed, realistic love stories. xD; (Because I don't read flat romance a lot anyway.)

But then it stands to be wondered about (because my grasp of English is just sooo good rolleyes ) if BL fans would accept a gei-comi (new word for me :3) story as a "good story," and I think that was the topic of the thread anyway.

(...and I know quite a few straight relationships where the woman is most definitely the dominant one. o_o;; But that's another topic.)

(Sorry if this isn't totally coherent, I'm running on maybe 1.5 hours of sleep. xD)

(Ph34r t3h parentheses.)

I applaude you all and agree with pretty much everything said here...(even though ya'll hijacked all the things i was going to write and give commentage on.) but, nonetheless, i have two questions, what is BL and what is/where can i find "gei-comi"??  

[Dultae]

x3 BL stands for "boy love," which is pretty much exactly what shounen-ai means in Japanese. But--according to my friend--they've started to say "boy love" instead of "shounen-ai" in Japan, because apparently in Japan, "English is cool." (And in America, Japanese is cool. How about that.) But BL and shounen-ai are the same things.

Gei-comi I'd imagine you can find if you looked for honest-to-God(ess) romance stories. x3 Though harlequin isn't exactly the most realistic either... but who's ever heard of a gay harlequin? XD  

[KonstantinJ]

oh...*feels a bit foolish now* i should have known that.  

[such a mess]

By personality, one can still call them either dominant or submissive of the two. Of course, by sexual means it is almost nessisary to switch positions once every while. Otherwise you're going to have a lot more than serious sore bottom problems. So yea, sexually, I fully believe it is possible. I mean, one can only stand being on the bottom so many times.

As for regular personalities? Yea, sure! I've seen people together who cannot be classified by either the seme or the uke term. It's not uncommon outside of the fantasy realm of yaoi. Because, unlike yaoi, these are real relationships. A lot of the times there is no real 'girly' personality of the two that always submits.

With books and other manga though, many people tend to like the dominant/submissive relationship better - hence why there is an abundance of it.  

[Katastrophic_Kate]

I can agree with both sides here. Seme/Uke can develope more interesting characters and create more drama and fun dynamics in the realationships, but only when it's well-written. It can also get repetitive and I get annoyed with the sobbing uke and the Seme that's just a jerk. I do like the idea of an equall relationship, but it dosn't mean there can't be an uke and a seme. I mean, there are definately people in real life that can be characterised as a seme or uke.... that dosn't nessecarily mean that they act like a "man" or "woman" it's more what they feel comfortable doing in a realationship. And the pairing dosn't always have to be an uke and seme either. two ukes or two semes are fun too.  

[Phantom Storyteller]

Well the uke/seme thing is exaggerated, but I don't know. I think it's kind of romantic. Maybe it's not realistic, but then again it seems like in real relationships there is one person who's more determined and one person who's more supportive or neutral. Like in MMOs where you have a fighter and a healer. O_o

It's too bad that a lot of yaoi or shonen-ai don't show a more like... helpful relationship. Most of what I've seen it's more like one is dominated. There's a difference between a master and servant vs a fighter and healer. I use the fighter/healer thing because it seems like a situation in which both are needed. Alright, that’s probably a stupid comparison. I don’t know what I’m going on about. ~Shuts up now~
 

[Ootori Kyouya-sama]

Actually, I like your description. It's a much better metaphor than "dominater/reciever". I'm personally a fan of couples that don't just scream "this is the uke and this the seme." I like to see an artist that isn't afraid to make their boys....well act like boys. Anyone here read Same Cell Organism or Dear Myself? Finally, both of them are available to the US general public at any Borders. Those are the kind of pairing I'm talking about.

I guess what I'm really saying is, it's alright if their roles conform to the stereotype, but that's no excuse for their personalities to conform as well. I don't mind the then romanticizing it, but when they get lazy and start using cookie-cutter characters, I stop reading.  

[AngelTristan]

Yeah, it's definitely possible to have no seme or uke. If they're just...neutral, you have to have some outside dominating force to cause conflict, perhaps parents or homophobes.  

[Graceful crisis]

I love fanfics were they switch who bottoms ninja But I've never come across a yaoi were there isn't an uke or a seme.