Which God's rules apply?

[[(~Callista~)]]

Wow, this sounds familiar.

I was baptized Catholic as an infant and confirmed when I was 11 (the sixth grade). I was confirmed before I even realized other religions existed (except for Judaism cause my best friend was jewish). I only did it because everyone in my religion class was and it was expected of me. It never had much meaning for me. It just was a shrug of the shoulder and a new pretty dress. Even before my confirmation, I had no real interest in being catholic. Religion class was just a hang out time with cupcakes to me.

I always felt my church confirmed way too early. It was long before any of us really had a chance to decide our beliefs for ourselves. It was like they were trying to get us in before we had a chance to say no lol. Most of my friends from that religion class stopped going to church by the 9th grade and if they did it was only on holidays like christmas and easter.

I still have my very Catholic moments. I haven't really been able to escape it. I went to the vatican last year with a student ambassador trip that vists all of southern europe. I can't describe what it was like. I never felt unwelcomed in there. I still keep a cross on my necklace with my pentacle, but I don't really believe in it. I made my choice to follow a pagan path in the 8th grade (2 years after my confirmation.) Luckily, I was smart enough this time not to bind myself to some other god anytime soon.  

[[(~Callista~)]]

Looks like I killed another topic... sad  

[PhantomPhoenix0]

Sevendreams

Confirmation requires a fair bit of memorization and some thinking.

rofl Not my class. We played games for half an hour, then listened to a discussion for 2 hours complete with a fill in the blank worksheet (and this wasnt on the classes we watched Simpsons episodes). No joke, it was almost sad at the involvement we had with it.  

[Sevendreams]

PhantomPhoenix0

Sevendreams

Confirmation requires a fair bit of memorization and some thinking.

rofl Not my class. We played games for half an hour, then listened to a discussion for 2 hours complete with a fill in the blank worksheet (and this wasnt on the classes we watched Simpsons episodes). No joke, it was almost sad at the involvement we had with it.

The most fun we had in class was when the pastor told us "the most hilarious story" about the time he pissed an atheist off by arguing that the meanings of "BCE" and "CE" could be substituted by "Before Christian Era" and "Christian Era." sad  

[maenad nuri]

PhantomPhoenix0

Sevendreams

Confirmation requires a fair bit of memorization and some thinking.

rofl Not my class. We played games for half an hour, then listened to a discussion for 2 hours complete with a fill in the blank worksheet (and this wasnt on the classes we watched Simpsons episodes). No joke, it was almost sad at the involvement we had with it.

damn, the one I took was an actual class once a weekend, with volunteering and retreats and stuff.

And CCD the previous years were taught by my father-so while we watched things like Babylon 5 and Indiana Jones among other things, we actually learned stuff besides the "facts"

But I managed to get out of the actual confirmation, by conviently being on a choir trip.  

[Sound Doxa]

~necro-posts~
I hope you guys don't mind, but I was looking through past topics and this one struck a chord with me.
So, with the other people, it seemed like they didn't have a good understanding of Lutheran/Christian doctrine.
I, on the other hand, understood everything that I had accepted during confirmation class. I was baptised in a Baptist church at the age of 7, but I was coherant enough to understand what I was doing. I did it of my own volition, I signed a paper that stated what I was agreeing with, and I was quite happy and excited when I did it. I accepted Christ at the age of 4, of my own will, and I was very happy to do it. I have confirmed to follow YHWH, all of my life. I suppose you'd call that a covenant to my deity.
So, since you all know that I did this with my full knowledge and will, what do you think would happen to me if I broke my covenant? Would it even be possible? Would I be punished by YHWH?  

[saint dreya]

SoundDoctrine

So, since you all know that I did this with my full knowledge and will, what do you think would happen to me if I broke my covenant? Would it even be possible? Would I be punished by YHWH?

i think it might perhaps depend on how the covenant was broken, what your attitudes and actions towards both sides would be afterwards, and potentially your access to other religions prior.

while i understand that a number of people, yourself perhaps included, fully embrace the religion they were brought up in, it doesn't necessarily mean that they were completely comfortable with everything included in that religion. there might have been a number of hang ups that they were just told to move on and ignore, or didn't know any better. finding something later that perhaps was built around those hang ups, in a positive light regarding one's particular feelings about them, might inspire a "regression" of realizing a contact that had been forgotten or misunderstood.

there might even be another situation where one might be under the impression they were making their oaths to YHVH, yet be misunderstood on their dealings with the deity, and be in fact another one completely. or, they might be giving an oath to YHVH, and YHVH sticks his fingers in his ears and says "la la la, i can't hear you".  

[Tsuzuki]

PhantomPhoenix0

I was considering making this topic in M&R, but I thought that I would start the topic here, so I can get some support for debate, along with feedback. Anyway, here we go:

Lets just assume for a second that (hypotheticly) it has been proven that YHVH is not the only God out there, and that his laws only apply to those bound in covenent to him.

In the same way, the laws of someone bound to another God (or multiple Gods for that matter) only apply to those bound to the other God(s).

What happens to someone who is baptized as an infant (thereby becoming a child of YHVH), gets confirmed, but then realizes it is not the path they were supposed to be on, and swear themselves to (an)other God(s). Who's laws apply? YHVH's because he was the first to be bound to the person? Or the other God(s), because the person believes in them completely?

In Mormonism, it is not we who are bound to YHVH, but YHVH who is bound to us every time we observe the law.  

[Deoridhe]

Thank the gods I was born to a Baptist father. Northern Baptists don't like children being baptised, so I never was. ^^

I oathed to the Aesir and Vanir that I would worship them for the span of my life. In practice, this usually means that if I'm involved in a ceremony, I only deal with my gods as an active participant. I have had an occassion where I was tugged out of a guided journey of the Egyptian afterlife with a ,"This isn't what's going to happen to you, but it's neat, isn't it?"

I have one experience with a deity who I have been unable to name, though, and I keep wondering if I'll meet her later on and that will change a lot. I think I met her again while at Tea's, just briefly. For a while I tried to think she was Saga, but despite the feeling still being loving the nature is simply different. Similar; they would like to get together and share news of running the world with each other over ice cream and coffee, but not the same being.  

[TeaDidikai]

SoundDoctrine

So, since you all know that I did this with my full knowledge and will, what do you think would happen to me if I broke my covenant? Would it even be possible? Would I be punished by YHWH?

Hmmmm... tricky question.

Allow me to present several points of view, all coming from a secular understanding of scripture and history.

1) You could not actually have oathed to YHVH. I somewhat doubt that you oathed to something other than "Jesus and God",

which means-
A) You could have oathed to Ahura Mazda.
-- If such is the case, I am not familiar with him smiting people. Thus, little to nothing to worry about.

B) You could have oathed to an Aeon.
-- If this is the case, again- I am not familiar with them smiting people. Thus, little to nothing to worry about.


Or- you actually did oath to YHVH-
A) but Paul's words were designed to betray the True Faith, and as a result, you have been breaking YHVH's Law this whole time, and having turned Yeshua into a deity that is worshiped and rejected him, you have broken the Mitzvots- you'd be screwed except that Sinners and the Pious alike end up in Sheol. Nothing really to worry about.

B) The faith itself is False- having the Rabbi's words twisted, and YHVH is still indeed a vengeful deity- and YHVH won't help you out anymore a la Jdg 10:13.

or C) The religion itself as in A, is false, but having not actually converted, YHVH doesn't give a flying rats arse that you oathed to him and thus it's a moot point.

The interesting question that presents itself, is if you are sworn to another god- if said deity will spare you YHVH's spanking.  

[Sound Doxa]

That was helpful and confusing at the same time.
I see how it helps me a lot, but then again I'm SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO confused.

Like, I've always been a Trinitarian, so I oathed to the Triune God, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit (you know, all that jazz).
So in regards to number 1, in not believing the Trinity, I haven't oathed to YHVH.

A) I've heard you talk about Him before. Can you give me more information about Ahura Mazda?
It might also be helpful for you to know that my memories of God (whom I call YHWH, the Christian God), were always very very pleasant, protective, and comforting. David's psalms about God always being there, and about being a shelter, really mirrored my feelings about Him. Until around August, I had never thought of God the Father as being cruel, or harsh.

B) An Aeon? Details?

And with the other options, basically you're saying I'm cool because YHWH's not Triune.

Anyways, since I've been raised Trinitarian, with Trinitarian parents and Trinitarian schooling, it will take me awhile to get out of that train of thought, and there's the possiblity that I'll never go against that thought, since it is embeded in me so much.
But thank you so much.
I guess I should tell you that I'm not a Christian anymore. I'd like to call myself Pagan now, but I'm not sure if I should or not. Maybe Agnostic would be better, since I haven't found any specifc religion or deities. But I already know that I'm interested in the paranormal. I prayed today, and I just kinda told YHWH(Ahura Mazda, or an Aeon, or Triune God), that I couldn't follow Him anymore, and I apologized a lot, and that was that.  

[Fiddlers Green]

Ahura Mazda is the righteous and compassionate God of Zoroastrian Dualism.
Jesus is recognized as an incarnate of Ahura Mazda by some ( I am tempted to say most, however, I ahve hardly interacted with enough of Zarathustra's people to make such a sweeping judgement) and at least as a prophet by others.
Ever hear about the 3 wise men coming to the birth of Christ?
Those were Magi (Mystics who gaze into the stars to see the messages left by Ahura Mazda, to guide them thru the darkness) who had followed celestial ques to find the newest bearer of sacred knowledge from their God.

Ruling all personal experiences out, and approaching this academicly...
Ahura Mazda is not known for causing harm to much of anyone (that tis the duty/purpose of Angra Maya). Some of the Amesha Spentas (think Angels) can get a bit odd in their duties, but again, they aren't there to harm humans, merely protect their free will.

Also, Depending on one's take on the matter, unless you are descended from one of the tribes of Israel, you cannot enter into a pact with Adonai.  

[Sound Doxa]

Well, blah. Sorry for making you guys type all that out. I changed my mind. Everything's really complex, and it's late, so I don't feel like going all through why, but yeah, I'm still a Christian.  

[Tsuzuki]

Fiddlers Green

Also, Depending on one's take on the matter, unless you are descended from one of the tribes of Israel, you cannot enter into a pact with Adonai.

Why not? Abraham did it. Not to mention Adam, Seth, Enoch, and Noah. That's a precedent if I ever saw one.  

[Fiddlers Green]

Tsuzuki

Why not? Abraham did it. Not to mention Adam, Seth, Enoch, and Noah. That's a precedent if I ever saw one.

Adam and his git (all the way down following the Book of Genesis) were there by dint of being claymen made by Adonai.
Arguments as to the metagenetic nature of Shem's faith are not just strong, they are an established part of Judaism.
Ol' Tetry entered into a pact with Adam's lineage.
And was generally a b*****d to anyone else, if they were even noticed.
Only with the alterations brought about by Yeushua does it become possible for one not of the Tribes of Israel to become part of Adonai's herd...
And even then, I find the message of Yeushua to be completely incompatible with Shem's previous and later religions.

Judaism... Christianity... Islam...
One of these faiths is not like the other ones... one of these faiths is doing it's own thing... ninja

All my conspiracy theorey ramblings aside (which aren't particularly pertinent to this topic), is there anyone in the Old Testament who enters pact with Adonai who is not of the line of Adam?

Barring the Exile who was cast into the lands beyound Eden (way to go Adonai, littering up everything not in your precious garden with people you don't want. rolleyes ), who, altho marked, was not, apparently favoured beyound that.
There is a flimsy claim to be a descendant of Cain and by that right buy into YHVH's chosen people, but that is iffy at best.
Of course, modern Judaism accepts converts outside the tribes, but really, when did they renegotiate their covenant? ninja

Bascially, the only precedents you offered are of a group who have a metagenetic pact with him.
Oh, and are incidentally male.