Preps vs Goth! The showdown.

[zz1000zz]

Ndoki

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originally prep did not mean what you say it means.

And originally gay meant happy, and goth meant a member of a Germanic people that overran the Roman Empire in the early centuries of the Christian era. Cool originally meant cold, and sex originally meant gender. Also every swear word teens use now had innocent meanings behind them in the past.

Innocent meanings? Please tell me the innocent meaning for the f-word.

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Definitions change over time, and I don't know about where you live, but I have seen hundreds, if not thousands, of people referring to themselves, or others, as preps, even though they don't attend 'preparatory schools', so really, what's your point?

Two points. First, you are arbitrarily picking the definition for prep. You offer no reasoning or evidence this is an accepted, much less common definition.

Second, i could not care less if this is a "boiled down" or simplified approach, you are being as bigoted as any other group, including preps with your comments. You arbitrarily decide to make goths and preps polar opposites, with goths being the "good" guys. No longer are they two distinct groups in society, they are now a scale upon which all people can be placed.

It is pathetic and disgusting.  

[Ndoki]

Ha ha ha, okay.. okay.. so you say goths are the "good" group, and then accuse me of being as "bigoted as any other group"? Never did I say one was better than the other at all, yet you just labeled one as being good and in suggestion the other bad. Please, correct me if I'm wrong, show me where I said anything about either side being good or bad. I implore you.

And if you really must know the f-word is another way of saying sexual intercourse, try to keep up.

"You offer no reasoning or evidence this is an accepted, much less common definition."

Then go around any school and ask what people think prep means, I'll bet once you get everyone's opinion (note I said EVERYONE'S opinion) and find the common denominator, and watch how those labeled as preps act, it'll match my idea. Also might I add the (first out of three) highschools I attended (which had many preps) had about 3000 students, and that was the general idea of most as to what a prep is. As a matter of fact if I were to total all the students in all the schools I have attended I would estimate around 5000 students, the majority with a very similar definition of what a prep is. Last I checked labels are based on common ideas of a group.  

[zz1000zz]

Ndoki

Ha ha ha, okay.. okay.. so you say goths are the "good" group, and then accuse me of being as "bigoted as any other group"? Never did I say one was better than the other at all, yet you just labeled one as being good and in suggestion the other bad. Please, correct me if I'm wrong, show me where I said anything about either side being good or bad. I implore you.

Nice way to misread my post. My statement, "You arbitrarily decide to make goths and preps polar opposites, with goths being the "good" guys." Clearly i was stating you were saying goths were the good group.

You said goths are independent thinkers while preps "follow the crowd." This is clear bias towards goths, making them the better of the two. By declaring the two groups to be polar opposites, you are saying goths are good while preps are bad.

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And if you really must know the f-word is another way of saying sexual intercourse, try to keep up.

You have some source for this? I ask, because that is not what the word was originally meant for.

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"You offer no reasoning or evidence this is an accepted, much less common definition."

Then go around any school and ask what people think prep means, I'll bet once you get everyone's opinion (note I said EVERYONE'S opinion) and find the common denominator, and watch how those labeled as preps act, it'll match my idea. Also might I add the (first out of three) highschools I attended (which had many preps) had about 3000 students, and that was the general idea of most as to what a prep is. As a matter of fact if I were to total all the students in all the schools I have attended I would estimate around 5000 students, the majority with a very similar definition of what a prep is.

Anecdotical evidence for the win! I am glad your personal experience has caused you to be so knowledgeable as to be able to define terms that have existed for half a century. Of course, your knowledge is irrelevant at the moment, as it is not verified by factual evidence.

Goths and preps are not polar opposites. They are two out of many groups.

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Last I checked labels are based on common ideas of a group.

While i am asking all of those people what a prep is, i think i may ask them what a goth is as well. We can see if they come up with your definition on both counts.  

[Ndoki]

Who says that following the crowd is bad and free thinking is good? Being a free thinker in hitler times was a bad thing because you'd be killed for it. You saying one is good or bad is just further proving my point, that you're being hypocritical.

And if you want proof about your word, the dictionary says.. *Ahem.*

Main Entry: 1####
Pronunciation: '###
Function: verb
Etymology: akin to Dutch fokken to breed (cattle), Swedish dialect fókka to copulate
intransitive verb

Look at that... It comes from the dutch word meaning to BREED and the swedish dialect to copulate... who would have guessed... oh yeah, I did.

You know it's all great to say you're right and I'm wrong, but so far I'm the only one providing any sort of evidence, on top of that I asked you to prove me wrong and you didn't, so unless you have anything of substance to contribute I don't think that's what this section is for.  

[zz1000zz]

At this point, there is no meaningful discussion. On any point for the actual topic, there is no longer any discussion. I am going to summarize a few points, and this will probably be my final post.

First, the etymology offered by that dictionary (whichever it may be) is not a certain one. It says "akin" for a reason. Indeed, there has been much debate over the origin of the word, though the best guess is that it comes from Middle English ********, to strike, move quickly, penetrate, from the German ficken, meaning approximately the same thing.

Onto the actual topic. You defined goth and prep in certain ways. My problem with nearly all of your points comes from your definition of prep. When i questioned it, you told me it is the common definition (and i could check by asking people in school), and so it should be accepted. I doubt the validity of this, but more importantly it makes no sense. If i apply the same process to defining goth, i will obviously not get your definition.

If you wish to respond to that point, we can continue having a "discussion." However, i will not waste my time on any more BS.  

[Ndoki]

Quote:

the best guess is that it comes from Middle English ********, to strike, move quickly, penetrate, from the German ficken, meaning approximately the same thing.

Wow, slapping down a marriam webster dictionary to go with monty python instead... either way you still proved my point, it's initial meaning ISN'T the crude one used today. Not only does it prove my point on the word (and in extension meanings of many words) but your hypocrisy as well, since you argued against me about that, and then go ahead posting the exact same thing I was saying. Thank you.  

[zz1000zz]

zz1000zz

You defined goth and prep in certain ways. My problem with nearly all of your points comes from your definition of prep. When i questioned it, you told me it is the common definition (and i could check by asking people in school), and so it should be accepted. I doubt the validity of this, but more importantly it makes no sense. If i apply the same process to defining goth, i will obviously not get your definition.

This is my primary point. If you wish to discuss tangents, such as the meaning of the "f word," i will do so but only after this has been discussed. Otherwise, i am finished with this topic.  

[Ndoki]

zz1000zz

zz1000zz

You defined goth and prep in certain ways. My problem with nearly all of your points comes from your definition of prep. When i questioned it, you told me it is the common definition (and i could check by asking people in school), and so it should be accepted. I doubt the validity of this, but more importantly it makes no sense. If i apply the same process to defining goth, i will obviously not get your definition.

This is my primary point. If you wish to discuss tangents, such as the meaning of the "f word," i will do so but only after this has been discussed. Otherwise, i am finished with this topic.

And you still have yet to show any real argument against it other than "I don't agree with you" so there is really no discussion since my points still stand.  

[zz1000zz]

Whereas you offered so much more? You offered a definition of goth which i have not disputed. Perhaps it is true, perhaps it is not. Currently, my problem is with your definition of prep. You have not offered a dictionary or other such reference, but rather said "Ask a lot of people."

First, i questioned what the results would be if i did exactly that. Second, i pointed out that if the same process was used to define goth, we would get a radically different definition than the one you offered. There is an obvious problem here, most likely from your method of garnering the definition. I might add, this is my fourth time mentioning this problem.

Of course, you can blatantly ignore my points as you have done before if you would like. While you do, just a matter of amusement for me. In the thread discussing vampires, you said this:

Quote:

That is straight from a dictionary. Generally if one doesn't follow the definition of something, they aren't it. The point of words is to classify something

You choose the dictionary definition over the definition offered by the common ideas of a group. Yet now you wish to use a different method. After all, the dictionary defines goth as:

Quote:

Goth (n.): 1. A style of rock music that often evokes bleak, lugubrious imagery. 2. A performer or follower of this style of music.

And that does not fit your wishes.  

[Ndoki]

And the dictionary I have right here says:

Main Entry: 1Goth
Pronunciation: 'gäth
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English Gothes, Gotes (plural), partly from Old English Gotan (plural); partly from Late Latin Gothi (plural)
1 : a member of a Germanic people that overran the Roman Empire in the early centuries of the Christian era
2 often not capitalized a : rock music marked by dark and morbid lyrics
3 : a person who wears mostly black clothing, uses dark dramatic makeup, and often has dyed black hair

So let's look at this for a second then since you want to so badly, and since you apparently missed my already explained rebuttal in my first post. So are we all germanic people that overran the roman empire? No, I'm pretty sure that happened long before our time. Are we rock music? No, rock music can't type on a computer.

So it leaves us with one thing.. how we dress. So you think EVERYONE who has black hair and wears dark clothes is goth? All the giggly girls and ignorant masses who decided to wear their black shirt, have naturally black hair, or shop at stores like hot topic are all goth? Then I'm sure EVERYONE at one point or another could be called goth, and it's something as easily changed as putting on a shirt.

So in conclusion, dictionary definitions are based off shallow social norms which are highly inaccurate and most real goths don't agree with.

Now the dictionary definition of prep is

Main Entry: 2prep
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): prepped; prep·ping
intransitive verb
1 : to attend preparatory school

So going by that then preps would ONLY be those who go to a school. It would be a term only used about 8 hours of the day, 5 days a week, and as easily changed as playing hooky from school for a day. Once again this is a shallow social norm definition, and is clearly lacking.

So that leads to the question: What do we do when the same society that labels us as certain things, has incorrect definitions of that very label they give us? Well, we have to look at the common factors amongst the groups that have that label. Well because of that we have to look past physical appearances and moreso at things society doesn't look at, namely, personality. So those attending preperatory schools generally act aloof, are close minded, and follow the crowd or social "norms", possibly caused by the enforced conformity among said schools. Now obviously conformity isn't only present in preperatory schools (although possibly most common) and is actually present in many individuals outside of such schools. Now going back to the fact that since dictionary definitions are generally incorrect when grouping individuals because of shallow social norms, looking at the PERSONALITY of these individuals would show they act much like those in preperatory schools, so even though they may not attend the same school, they still act like them, and thus the groups are alike, and fall under the same label, preps.

The same can be said for goths, since the only working definition is once again a shallow social norm, and obviously falls short in any proper grouping, we once again have to look at what is common amongst goths. That can all be summed up here and is so far the most commonly agreed upon definition of what goth (in the non-shallow sense) actually is based on what is most common among those calling themselves, or being called goths.... and within that group, originates posers, those who don't follow such descriptions, but are referred to by society as such because they only appear as such on the outside, but not on the inside. Also to add on that since society generally only focuses on appearance to label individuals, only those who truly are goth, or have an intimate knowledge of what it means to be goth, can differentiate posers, from true goths.

Also the above explanation of determining who actually falls under certain non shallow or socially accepted labels applies to all groups.

Now is that politically correct enough for you?

Edit: Also building upon Azhram's explanation of what goth is (which is pure genius in my opinion) I have a few things I'd like to point out.

"t's sort of odd and sad at the same time that a lot of actual Goths don't know that they are."

Therefore, if it were based on how you'd look, that would be incorrect, since there are hardly any people that would go out of their way to wear black, dye their hair, and wear excessive makeup, and not know they are trying to look goth. So because of that goth is a personality trait, and something many don't realize is classified as goth.

You know you are goth when...

"You don't understand why the people around you spend so much time watching TV
You don't feel comfortable looking just like everyone else you know
You do feel comfortable just being yourself, even if no one else around is anything like you
You wonder "why" a lot, and come up with some interesting answers
You wonder "how" a lot, and often figure it out on your own
You don't just reject something because you don't understand it
You base your opinions of people on who they are and what they do rather than what they look like"

And every one of those statements further reinforces my oversimplified generalization that goths THINK FOR THEMSELVES AND DON'T FOLLOW THE CROWD. a.k.a. BEING UNIQUE.  

[Ndoki]

And I even made a supporting picture for the more visual people....

 

[rykin666]

he he, the topic is really interesting, and i'd like to follow but its just too complicated 4 me, lol  

[Ndoki]

Yeah, I apologize, the way I explain things is... odd to say the least.  

[Choboxer]

Isobel Bellamy

Hm, the term 'prep' is something i'm having problems with, mainly because it is a localised term (to America). The metnality and ethos however still applies to group other than 'preps'. I shall give the UK Eqivilent of preps: the Chavs (Hoodies, Neds, Townies, Kevs, Charvers, Steeks, Spides, Bazzas, Yarcos, Ratboys, Skangers, Scutters, Janners, Stigs, Scallies, Hood Rats are other names for them)

They all exibit the same pack mentality though, the same identikit uniform of tacksuits, tees and hooded tops (when told they all look the same they will give blank looks that they're not, sure, the companents of clothing is different but they're still wearing the same things, just different versions). When asked why they all dress similarly its becuase they don't want to be made fun of. Preps, just (in my opinion) with less taste.

I shall refer you to this page for examples.

The rest on your opinion of Goth is very interesting, I shall defend you against people with a more tapered vision of goth, in this day and age goth has evolved from it's roots and I say it's nothing to be afraid of. Goth encompasses far more than just wearing outrageous clothes and listening to songs that could send even the happiest puppies into the deepest darkest pit of depression (Robet Smith, TAKE SOME FREAKING PROZAK!!!)

Very nice topic, very true.

Preps arent Quite a Chav, Chavs here care called Wigger's
a play on "White-******"
Prep is....like a store mannequin, They dress the same way with the flawlessly matching outfit right down to the socks. The perfect Tan and perfect hair. Its all to achive the Rugged Polo player look.
Many preps are confused for being Meterosexual or Gay.  

[Dorian Requiem]

Ok, this is an argument that is likely to end up as Alternatives Vs. Mainstream/Average/Mundane.

Everyone one veiws their reality a little differently, everyone thinks a little differently, everyone looks a little different. Their are many, many, many definitons of 'Goth' that usually have a good number of similarities, and a few personal ideas that are less common. The same goes for 'Prep' or related names, though, like the Seattle-Japan thing, it has a smaller aray to cross compare ans such.

One common defintion, in *very simplified form* is that Goths are people who are being themself(Unique).

Now that said, a point would be that even if your following the mainstream, thats what you must want to some degree-being yourself basically. If your a little or a lot different, your being yourself. This basically means everyone is a 'Goth' theirfore 'Goth' does not actually exist. Thats just a point related to making the idea to broad. This also points out how "skin-goths' are infact just 'Goths'.(though usually not liked)

Goths *usually* have a taste for finer things in life, such as art, or the arts. Food, or clothing, anything really as long as it is considered a bit more special. That would be why the Romantic look is a common style of 'Goth', or the fine black dress clothing. This does not apply to all 'Goths'.

Another point. 'Goth' was, still is, a debunking trend, like 'Punk' before it.(the 'Punk' trend, was being different, omg, they must be 'Goth') Its standing out from the majority and saying that you like something that few of them do, or you don't like something many of them do. That you are a minority so to speak. Slightly or greatly different.

Also, commonly, and stereotypically, 'Goths' have some fascination with death. Not all do but it is fairly common as I've experienced. The fascination might be because of a religious thing to said person, or that they respect the dead/why they died(war). Maybe they are attached to someone who passed away(parent, sibling, friend, significant other). Maybe the idea of death and the dead gives said person a thirst for life and to experience many thing before they pass on. The latter can relate to inspiration to artistic people.

Now, 'Goth' is supposedly basically being different. That would mean that some 'Goths' are infact hardcore 'Emos', Satanists, and anything else you could come up with. Now thats likely to be true, but only marginaly compared to the amount of 'Goths' that are not those things.

From my experience, 'Goth' people often wear black, or dark colours, however some don't even dress that way, as they don't care for it. Most of these people/'Goths' do appreciate things in life such as artist things, and some have had respect or a fascination with death. Some listen to "gothy" music, most I know don't.

OPINION TIME, something to prove my ignorance WOOT

Personally, I think 'Goth' is what you make of it (hehe), but to be 'Goth' you have to have some idea of the fact you are one, whether you admit/acknowledge it or not. You usually dress differently, and usually think/contemplate much more then the average person does. 'Goths' are usually creative, and open minded. Personally 'Goths' I know, including myself, can become very depressed when they contemplate to much on things such as war, ingorance, and insignifance of things, but,(big point here) it is hard for real 'Goths' to hang out together and be depressed for long at the same time. Usually either someone will laugh at the cliche, or the pointlessness or moping, or, one of the 'Goths' will try to cheer one or more of the others up.

As far as my opinion goes, and many opinions of other, heck, even ask the 'average' people who know, and I'm a 'Goth'. I have to say, it's easier to say I'm 'Goth' then explain why I'm not, and its easier to go along with it because I happen to get along very well with it all. However, my artistic abilities have all but died, I am different, I like black, and I think 'Gothic' fashion is orgasmic, as well as other alternative styles. But, I'm to young to be an 'Old School Goth', I dress this way because I think its cool an want to. I care what others think about me, I especially like the attention I get from being different (or doing things that are different, like finishing the English provincial before 1 hr and being the only person to leave) but, if what the people think about me is a bad thing, I usually saw 'F*** it, I'm not changing for someone who doesn't accept me, I'm going to avoid you so that I can attempt to avoid further conflict that may result in one of use growing to dislike the other.'

I believe I am not a 'Goth', but I do like 'Goths' and alternative people alot.

((More will come on 'Goths', 'Emos', 'Punks' and 'Preps', but its getting light outside and I should really go to bed))