Trying to find "here" in "incoherence"

[bobz]

Hee, this is why i feel if you're wandering along a chaotic (or eclectic) path it's not at all necessary to "borrow" from other religions. Read up on them yes, but as an exercise to see what's come before. nabbing bits and pieces means you're not getting the whole picture.
That said, I agree with the sentiment behind "Find your own path", people should be wandering around, trying new things, seeing what's right and wrong for them. This hopefully will lead them to a path that's right for you, even if it leads you to a really well travelled path.

I also see why this advice is constantly given. I can't convert or advise people really on religion, I can't look at someone and say to them "you're wiccan", or "you belong to a small and unusual, mainly lost cult that died out over 500 years ago that mainly worshopped mushrooms" especially just from talking to them. That's up to you what you do, just don't get it all over me. cool

*dissapears like an advice giving ninja ninja *  

[Shavis]

phoenix shadowwolf

Shavis

phoenix shadowwolf

Shavis

either way, find your own path...

i see this time and time again. and have to wonder...

it's still perfectly fine and capable idea to find one's own path amidst an established path. what is so wrong with taking the road more traveled? is it such an abomination that many people care to tread this path?

i understand the need to hearken out into the wilderness to find one's own path under the debris, but is it truly even that horrid to trod along the known and well-traveled path, even for brief moments throughtout one's journey?

You misunderstand. I find it more than acceptable to take from established paths. But yes, it is an abomination to simply assimilate into someone else's beliefs. Faith is a deeply personal matter and to simply give over entirely to someone else's view of right is a travesty. Take what you need and can use and all else is unnecessary.

i didn't mean to imply that you did. just a general note to all.

also...the last line is rather eclectic and while might work for some practices, i think it might be slightly disrespectful to certain cultures to pick and choose from their practices.

eek i think i actually understand Chaiyo and reagun now!

Who said anything about practices?
I am speaking only in terms of beliefs. I agree, yoinking practices from another culture without a foundation in those beliefs is not good, however if they have a certain concept that appeals to you adapt it, (notice I say adapt not adopt) there is no true origionality and we may as well come to terms with that. That doesn't mean we have to cowtow to others, it's acceptable to mearly embrace their concepts and integrate them with your Way.  

[Pelta]

Shavis

I agree, yoinking practices from another culture without a foundation in those beliefs is not good, however if they have a certain concept that appeals to you adapt it, (notice I say adapt not adopt) there is no true origionality and we may as well come to terms with that. That doesn't mean we have to cowtow to others, it's acceptable to mearly embrace their concepts and integrate them with your Way.

This reminded me a lot of Tzusuki's thread about paradigm pirates in M&R. Isn't that similar to what eclecticism actually is? Learning and understanding different faiths to assimilate their concepts and mysteries while at the same time being totally separate from them. I'm not too sure how well that sits with me. The cultural raping of a tradition seems so... wrong to me in so many ways. But at the same time we can only learn from what has come before, so where do you draw the line?

Personally I believe every person's path is going to be different. No two people are the same and no two people are going to have the same spiritual gnosis. So even in the same established tradition people can have vastly different paths. It's the same with any spiritually-minded person. Your path is what you make of it. I just wish you the best of luck in finding whatever suits you best.  

[Aila-al-Jehan]

@Fluffy Octopus: the OP

I believe that you do have a valid arguement. Correct me if i am wrong, but what you are stating is that you feel that taking bits and peices of other religions without a specific order or structure makes you feel too scattered and unable to hold onto any one belief. Is this right? I see what you mean.

Did you come from a Christian religion by any chance or another structured religion? Or even are you a very orginized person in general? This is important to know, because the past spiritual experiences and personal habits that were once a major (or even minor) part of our lives carry over into our new spiritual ideas and faiths once we "drop" the other one. i know the feeling. I'm in a reletively similar boat. I am a former Roman Catholic (even though i never believed the doctrine anyway, i was born into it and taught it.) who renounced that faith and decided to construct my own spirituality. Even though I will denounce the docterine being part of my own faith left and right, ideas and imprints from the old religion will always affect what i think should go into my new one.

Since we are talking about structure here, let me get to the point: religions have their own sets of laws, docterines and ideals that appeal to and agree with its practitioners in their eyes. Christianity is a prime example: laws, e.g. the Ten Commandments; docterine, e.g. John 3:16, and ideals, e.g. The parable of the shrewd manager (basically, be trustable with little, for whom you can trust with little you can trust with much). Most religions need a structure or a code or they will fall to peices. Not all of them do, because in those it is literally whatever works for you. Since this is a variable not only between people but between periods of time in your life, there will never be one religion to satisfy the world, or even yourself, forever unless it is flexible.

I believe that you should try to determine what you want out of your spirituality. That is the main thing-what do you want out of it? Do you want to learn the truth of the universe, or just yourself? Do you want to lead a memorable life, or a quiet peaceful one? Once you sit back, take a look at yourself, and examine yourself from a few angles, you'll have an idea of what you should seek. However, as we change and are molded by our life's experiences, we need to step back everyonce in a while and look at ourselves again. Has anything changed about me? like what? how has his effected my spirituality? how has this affected my personality? take these things into consideration. the only person who can answer your questions are you.

One of my primary examples of my own beliefs just to personify my point: I do not believe in a universal "right" or "wrong". there is only what an individual can feel at peace with themselves doing or thinking, and what they cannot. obviously this willl vary from person to person, and even one day i'll feel one way, then the next day, i'll feel differently. Even though that this is a variable that has great flexibility, it also has structure. It still puts us within the lines of our own moral and ethical codes, and forces me to look inside and say, "am i comfertable doing this?" It allows me to get in touch with my self.

Structure in itself is a flexible thing. just keep that in mind. Good luck in searching for your inner truths!  

[Shavis]

missmagpie

Shavis

I agree, yoinking practices from another culture without a foundation in those beliefs is not good, however if they have a certain concept that appeals to you adapt it, (notice I say adapt not adopt) there is no true origionality and we may as well come to terms with that. That doesn't mean we have to cowtow to others, it's acceptable to mearly embrace their concepts and integrate them with your Way.

This reminded me a lot of Tzusuki's thread about paradigm pirates in M&R. Isn't that similar to what eclecticism actually is? Learning and understanding different faiths to assimilate their concepts and mysteries while at the same time being totally separate from them. I'm not too sure how well that sits with me. The cultural raping of a tradition seems so... wrong to me in so many ways. But at the same time we can only learn from what has come before, so where do you draw the line?

Personally I believe every person's path is going to be different. No two people are the same and no two people are going to have the same spiritual gnosis. So even in the same established tradition people can have vastly different paths. It's the same with any spiritually-minded person. Your path is what you make of it. I just wish you the best of luck in finding whatever suits you best.

The last part I can dig on, the first part.....
*screams in frustration and pulls out hair*
Don't assimilate mysteries, traditions etc...
It's bad and it disrespcets the culture you stole them from. DO embrace meaningful -CONCEPTS-, as people who don't have a faith recognized by others it is the responsibility of an ecclectic to form their own traditions, maybe basing loosly off others but still essentially their own. Listen to the little voice in your head that tells you how you should live your life and your fine.  

[Pelta]

Shavis

missmagpie

Shavis

I agree, yoinking practices from another culture without a foundation in those beliefs is not good, however if they have a certain concept that appeals to you adapt it, (notice I say adapt not adopt) there is no true origionality and we may as well come to terms with that. That doesn't mean we have to cowtow to others, it's acceptable to mearly embrace their concepts and integrate them with your Way.

This reminded me a lot of Tzusuki's thread about paradigm pirates in M&R. Isn't that similar to what eclecticism actually is? Learning and understanding different faiths to assimilate their concepts and mysteries while at the same time being totally separate from them. I'm not too sure how well that sits with me. The cultural raping of a tradition seems so... wrong to me in so many ways. But at the same time we can only learn from what has come before, so where do you draw the line?

Personally I believe every person's path is going to be different. No two people are the same and no two people are going to have the same spiritual gnosis. So even in the same established tradition people can have vastly different paths. It's the same with any spiritually-minded person. Your path is what you make of it. I just wish you the best of luck in finding whatever suits you best.

The last part I can dig on, the first part.....
*screams in frustration and pulls out hair*
Don't assimilate mysteries, traditions etc...
It's bad and it disrespcets the culture you stole them from. DO embrace meaningful -CONCEPTS-, as people who don't have a faith recognized by others it is the responsibility of an ecclectic to form their own traditions, maybe basing loosly off others but still essentially their own. Listen to the little voice in your head that tells you how you should live your life and your fine.

I entirely agree. Stealing mysteries and practises is just so heinous... But I was wondering where exactly do eclectics draw the line? Borrowing ideas is one thing, then attempting to mesh them together into some sort of coherence, but ideas, concepts and practises are often specific to certain regions or traditions and may be akin to mysteries. What do you do then? Do you take it all and be a religious thief or shun it and get left with nothing? And certain concepts can't be divorced from their traditions and practises - do you try to take part of something and leave out the rest? I would think that'd be one of the worst qualities of eclecticism.

I was just wondering because I think being a full eclectic would be one of the hardest paths to do responsibly, and yet so easy to throw together carelessly.  

[Shavis]

Speaking as a former eclectic, if you can't separate the concept from the practice without loosing something it couldn't be very sound to you anyway, like I said it's not about adoption its about adaptation. if the concept is defined by the practice, take the core of the concept that is salvageable from the tradition and expand on that part. You can always take a thought apart until it isn't necessarily connected to anything.  

[Pelta]

Shavis

Speaking as a former eclectic, if you can't separate the concept from the practice without loosing something it couldn't be very sound to you anyway, like I said it's not about adoption its about adaptation. if the concept is defined by the practice, take the core of the concept that is salvageable from the tradition and expand on that part. You can always take a thought apart until it isn't necessarily connected to anything.

But can a thought still mean something useful when it isn't connected to anything? Doesn't lack of context destroy meaning when it comes to certain principles?  

[bobz]

missmagpie

But can a thought still mean something useful when it isn't connected to anything? Doesn't lack of context destroy meaning when it comes to certain principles?

Got it in one, it's not the kind of practice that can be done with everything, some concepts are irretrievable as they make no sense when removed from the greater concepts in the tradition, others are universal and have no real bearing on the path in question, these ones often pop up across the board in other religions.
It's probably one of the reasons I LIKE ecclecticism, as a study into finding principals found across the board. Search for univeral truth and all that jazz. While at the same time I'm growing dissatisfied with it as it once you find those universal nuggets (and it can take a lot of trawling) you realise that you've got a lot of concepts, a general framework, and a lot of gaps. That's where your own dealings with the gods come in.

Bobz- the random.ecclectic till something right comes along.  

[TeaDidikai]

Fluffy Little Octopus

There is no structure to my belief system. At all. I can hardly define what I believe at any permanent time, let alone stick to it.

Start asking questions. Simple questions. Start broad and narrow it down.

Do you believe in unseen forces that science does not attempt to explain?

Do you believe that all/some/or none of potential aforementioned unseen forces have awareness?

Do you believe that all/some or none of potential aware unseen forces have personality?

Do you believe aforementioned potential personality to be singular or multiple in nature?

Do you believe that there are beings outside of corporeal existence?

Do you believe that things within corporeal existence have a non-corporeal awareness?

Do you believe that aspects of daily life tied to corporeal reality exert influence on any aspect of yourself that you may or may not view to be non-corporeal?

(I should write a book of this stuff. Put it out as a personality test. What kind of Godless Heathen Are You?! by Tea Didikai )

Do you hold aspects of corporeal reality to be worthy of:
Veneration?
Worship?
Bribery?
Threats?

I can (and might) go on for every in this line of questioning. Consider it akin to a Dichotomous Key for spirituality.

Quote:

I've considered the thought of looking into Discordianism and things of that nature, but as much as I love throwing myself into an oblivion high, I wouldn't mind just a little structure to work around in, maybe some ideals.

Ideals? Morals? Ethics? Try When, Why If... by Robin Wood. Or we could go through something along the lines above.

Quote:

I mean, I'd at least like to keep practical with my beliefs, at least to the extent that I still have a perfectly good reason for me as well as anyone else to live and to abide by the generic laws of the land.

Congrats. You just described the D&D alignment system. Lawful Good, Neutral Good, Chaotic Good, Lawful Neutral, True Neutral, Chaotic Neutral, Lawful Evil, Neutral Evil, Chaotic Evil.

There you go. Pick one you like out of a D&D corebook and you're off.

I know this sounds flippant. It actually isn't meant to be. Either you have no problem following your whims, desires and what not, or you do at the cost of others (individuals, establishments etc). Listen to the descriptions in the book and pick the one that honestly sounds like you.

Quote:

I'm not much for just hopping from one organized paradigm as I have a distinct ego about who I am and what I stand for, so I have a bit of unease (call it meta-motion sickness if you will) about having a stable definition of "me."

Well, if you are your own Pope as Tsuzuki said, you already have a good framework.

Quote:

So, I feel like I should go looking for a total epiphany. After all, it seems "drawing influence from multiple sources" just won't be enough sources for me to choose from to get a fully personalized religion Well, maybe it can, but I'm too lazy to go looking for speciifc things to research and a start from scratch method sounds good to me anyway >>;.

I saw others protest this idea.

I disagree with them. A number of cultures have similar concepts. Walkabout, ecstatic rituals, sweats, a host of tools designed to put one in the right place at the right time to have a total "BANG" epiphany.

The question is, which is right for you? Sex, drugs and rock and roll Baby. They all have their place in traditions that send the Seeker out to find themselves and the gods.

Quote:

To clarify, it's a bit like the Gaian system of dressing up an avatar. Eclectic Paganism, in the most general sense, is simply picking off of ideas that have already been done. In other words, it's just like getting pre-made pixel formations of clothing to design your own avatar. As the need for new additions to the selection of these proves, not even this will guaranteededly match up to what your ideal for your beliefs/avatar will be.

In fact, my own avatar is a perfect example of this. In a perfect world, I'd want an avatar exactly like the persona in my sig. Unfortunately, Gaia doesn't offer the option of octagonal blank eyes or octopus arms sprouting out of your back, so I am left with substitutes (zorro mask and lunar cape).

This is how my beliefs are. All I've had access to thought wise are bits and pieces of other religions. That's fine and dandy for having a grasp of the world basic enough to function in, but as my scatterbrain style has shown to me, I need much more than the pieces conveniently made for me. I need to go outside of the box and find divine inspiration where no divinity was ever defined to exist, and find things out for myself.

Two pragmatic (over spiritually inspired) suggestions from reading this:
1) Write your beliefs down on paper. This will give a psychological sense of ownership, concreteness, and will allow for thoughtful questioning as you work.

2) Do it in a three-ringed binder so that as things change, you can add and subtract pages as you see fit and you don't feel so bound by the knots in the signature.

On the spiritual side of things:

Look back in your life at odd little bits and bobs that have popped up more than once.

I'll give you a couple personal examples-

My personal "totem" was the first toy in the incubation chamber with me, it was part of my early childhood memories, and it was part of my experiences as I began to look for my own path.

I have a necklace I wear about my neck. The shape of it was part of my signature a decade before my Aunt introduced me Zanki (an old Slavic runic system). That rune was amongst them, and I had been signing my name with it for ages (and still do to this day).

Little "patterns" like that aren't uncommon and easy to overlook.

Quote:

I need to put myself out into a spiritual quest because; as my efforts for a magically-induced product stymied by the questions of what I want, if I can get it, and how I can get it, have shown; I can't just have a one-man religon. I need a one-man church for my knowledge and awareness of the world around me to be satisfying.

Good. What's keeping you?

Quote:

Making the transition from a rant to a discussable subject, I ask all of you- what are your thoughts for me in my notion of searching for my own doctrine? What would you suggest I do to find it? Once found, how do I establish it? Is it even worth shooting for?

You mean this wasn't supposed to be reflexive?!

Congrats. You have had a sleep-depped unbalanced Tea spending over an hour of writing and rewriting stuff at you.

Hope it helps.  

[NoSuchCreature]

gonk Tea, I'm very, very sorry, I just noticed your post to this now.

And now that I've read it, it truthfully has been both really helpful and encouraging.

I'll keep an eye out for the book by Robin Wood, and await one of your own. whee

As for a D&D corebook, it may actually do me some good to look through my brother's copy (I'm familiar with the d20 system, at least). It's not like Wizards of the Coast hasn't already shaped my sense of identity in the past. whee

As for looking for an epiphany, I think I'll go back to preparing for one anyway again. xd Even if it yielded horrible, unpleasant results, I would be overjoyed to have any results at all and experience to work from. As I see it, in the sense of learning, any change is good change.

I will also get started on a Flohemian manifesto today, if possible. 3nodding Conveniently, I have Freud's Interpretation of Dreams and good ol' Uncle Al's Liber Aleph to read over the summer, so I'll be able to make spontaneous revisions if I see something I can steal draw inspiration from.

And since this was meant reflexively as well, it really did help quite a bit, and it's gotten me to put identifying my beliefs back on my list of priorities. Thank you soooo much. ^-^  

[TeaDidikai]

Welcome hun. Happy to have been of help.