The Naturalistic Pagan

[TatteredAngel]

Of course, occasionally you get people who seem to do it very well- the living without a good deal of attachment to money and such. That doesn't mean they live on no money, but they keep it at a minimum. One of our local characters who emphasizes natural living claims to live on less than $6000 a year, and seems pretty happy with his lot in life. That said, I could in no way give up nearly everything I currently enjoy for such a "natural" life. But I think the principles can be applied in moderation.  

[TheDisreputableDog]

quantum_leaper

No i'd agree that you don't have to work for a company, You could found your own.

It's still a corporate setting, and if someone simply does not enjoy the corporate setting, it won't work any better for them than the other option.

quantum_leaper

But we moved away from the barter system years ago and money is nesscity in this day and age.Hell there has been money around for thousands of years.

True, the barter system is a less modern economy, and an economy based on currency is more flexible than barter, but just because something has been happening for thousands of years doesn't automatically mean that it's a good thing or a desirable thing for everyone. Some people like money, some people don't. Some people who like money don't have any, and some people who don't like money have to just deal with it. Sometimes, with hard work and a bit of luck, you get what you want.

quantum_leaper

Your house may come from wood, but how does that wood get from being a tree one day to part of your wall the next?

Someone goes and cuts it, It then gets trimmed and cut. Then it gets sanded etc...

And eventually its gets added to a wall of a house.

If you can do that then fair enough but most people dont have the skills to be able to live completely independatly from everyone else. Because thats what you are saying. we need goods and services from others and the barter system doesnt tend to go down too well these days.

No, most people don't have the skills to manage such a lifestyle, but they can be taught and learned if someone cares enough about it to put the work in.

quantum_leaper

If its not really that difficult then why aren't you out doing it already?

Tea basically is. I'm assuming that this is a new idea to Jizo Bosatsu and he doesn't yet have the skills necessary.

quantum_leaper

There is the real world to think about i' afraid. If everyone suddenly wanted to go back to nature we'd soon find there isnt enough room for use all.

I am all for alternate methods of doing things like Nuri is saying but it must be tempered with a certain dose of reality and doing without a lot of things.Personally i like my computer too much...

But this lifestyle isn't for everyone. Some people are perfectly happy with civilization and its amenities and benefits. Some people are not so happy with civilization but work from the inside to change it through cultural and political revolutions, for example. Some people just want out. There are many people who desire civilization for its benefits but try to minimize its drawbacks, such as the movements Nuri mentioned (green living, voluntary simplicity, etc), or those who take conservancy jobs of some sort. Not all that many people really want to "get back to nature." I'd like to spend less time on my computer and more time outside, but I don't. Obviously I am not cut out for that sort of life at this point. Obviously Tea is. Jizo might find that he is, or he may find that he's not.  

[TeaDidikai]

quantum_leaper

While having beliefs are nice, we have to live in the real world. Unless you want to go back to the days of the caveman and go live in a cave, pick berries from bushes and e drink from rivers. The earth does not produce shelter for freee(Unless we are talking about caves).

Someone care to enlighten me as to what is wrong with picking berries and having a flowing water source that is filtered and purified to be made potable?

Nuri

You can do it, it takes work, it takes planning, it takes being willing to go without a lot of modernity, but you can do it.

I'm inclined to disagree with that. There is nothing about my lifestyle that bars me from either experiences.

Quote:

You'll still have to earn some sort of wage, but that doesn't mean you have to work for a company.

Or, there are international barter communities.  

[maenad nuri]

I didn't say anything about experiences, I said modernity.

Right now, I'm planning for when I am in a better position to live my beliefs. Such as buying direct from farmers, instead of going through the processed meat factories.  

[TeaDidikai]

Nuri

I didn't say anything about experiences, I said modernity.

Right now, I'm planning for when I am in a better position to live my beliefs. Such as buying direct from farmers, instead of going through the processed meat factories.

Ah. I got it. Sorry for the misunderstanding.  

[maenad nuri]

TeaDidikai

Nuri

I didn't say anything about experiences, I said modernity.

Right now, I'm planning for when I am in a better position to live my beliefs. Such as buying direct from farmers, instead of going through the processed meat factories.

Ah. I got it. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

No problem, I didn't make it as clear as I should have.  

[TeaDidikai]

I'd like to further suggest that different regions have better luck supporting an Outdoor Nature based WildCraft/Hunting lifestyle.

In the Pacific NW, we have beaches for shellfish, forests for elk, deer, boar, etc- I would be totally screwed if I was land locked- or worse, in the middle of a field of grains.  

[maenad nuri]

TeaDidikai

I'd like to further suggest that different regions have better luck supporting an Outdoor Nature based WildCraft/Hunting lifestyle.

In the Pacific NW, we have beaches for shellfish, forests for elk, deer, boar, etc- I would be totally screwed if I was land locked- or worse, in the middle of a field of grains.

Being in the midwest, I have more access to local farms, and some organic produce.

I need to do some more learning on skills. My goal is to live with understanding of whats going into my food, my clothes, my house, my job, ect... I don't need to be off the grid, but I also don't want to be ignorant of how food gets to my dinner.  

[TatteredAngel]

TeaDidikai

I'd like to further suggest that different regions have better luck supporting an Outdoor Nature based WildCraft/Hunting lifestyle.

In the Pacific NW, we have beaches for shellfish, forests for elk, deer, boar, etc- I would be totally screwed if I was land locked- or worse, in the middle of a field of grains.

I used to be really into forage- beautiful mountans and forests with lovely good things to eat in them. And then I started living in the desert. Where you can still eat some things, if you're really willing to work at it. We do what we can with our garden, but as for the actual forage aspect, I'm stuck with not a whole lot- and bits of the forest that we do have keep burning down. I miss places where things grow.  

[TeaDidikai]

Nuri

Being in the midwest, I have more access to local farms, and some organic produce.

I need to do some more learning on skills. My goal is to live with understanding of whats going into my food, my clothes, my house, my job, ect... I don't need to be off the grid, but I also don't want to be ignorant of how food gets to my dinner.

I know how that is. I don't intend to be off the grid again (function of what was useful at the time, not a desire or aversion to being on it).

TatteredAngel

I used to be really into forage- beautiful mountans and forests with lovely good things to eat in them. And then I started living in the desert. Where you can still eat some things, if you're really willing to work at it. We do what we can with our garden, but as for the actual forage aspect, I'm stuck with not a whole lot- and bits of the forest that we do have keep burning down. I miss places where things grow.

Rattle snakes are good eats. Lovely skins too.  

[TatteredAngel]

TeaDidikai

TatteredAngel

I used to be really into forage- beautiful mountans and forests with lovely good things to eat in them. And then I started living in the desert. Where you can still eat some things, if you're really willing to work at it. We do what we can with our garden, but as for the actual forage aspect, I'm stuck with not a whole lot- and bits of the forest that we do have keep burning down. I miss places where things grow.

Rattle snakes are good eats. Lovely skins too.

I've always wanted to try, but never had the chance. I've not actually run into one outside the zoo, and would not try to hunt one without someone who'd done it before. As a profound klutz, I can imagine disastrous results. whee And I know that the honest to goodness desert has more edibles, too, but you have to work hard for them. Mostly what I see is juniper and ponderosa. Boo. Maybe someday I'll get real adventurous and learn how to process prickly pear on my own and see if I can find some to play with.  

[MST3Kakalina]

Jizo, have you read Walden? It's not really of any practical use, but it certainly seems like you would like it. Or maybe you've already read it or maybe you hate it. What do I know? whee

In an ideal world, my fiance and I would be hermits alone, far away from everything, putting our energy into growing our own food, bagging game, etc. Yet I still love my high-tech modern world: leisure activities, books, tap water, ready-made clothing, the internet...Hopefully there's some kind of compromise I can reach before I die.

"Simplify, simplify!"  

[saint dreya]

TatteredAngel

TeaDidikai

TatteredAngel

I used to be really into forage- beautiful mountans and forests with lovely good things to eat in them. And then I started living in the desert. Where you can still eat some things, if you're really willing to work at it. We do what we can with our garden, but as for the actual forage aspect, I'm stuck with not a whole lot- and bits of the forest that we do have keep burning down. I miss places where things grow.

Rattle snakes are good eats. Lovely skins too.

I've always wanted to try, but never had the chance. I've not actually run into one outside the zoo, and would not try to hunt one without someone who'd done it before. As a profound klutz, I can imagine disastrous results. whee And I know that the honest to goodness desert has more edibles, too, but you have to work hard for them. Mostly what I see is juniper and ponderosa. Boo. Maybe someday I'll get real adventurous and learn how to process prickly pear on my own and see if I can find some to play with.

i haven't heard much on it, other than a scattering of mentions, but i believe there are some 'desert survival' classes that might work.  

[Tenzin Chodron]

TeaDidikai

Within that context the path makes a lot more sense.
Are you looking for an intergraded spiritual path? I use the term to describe a relation with spirituality that blurs the line between lived experience and belief.

Yes, that is exactly what I'm looking for. I'm sick of living in my head all the time.

Nuri

Actually, that makes a lot of sense, as Tea said. It actually strikes a chord within myself, except I do emphasize diety and soul.

Tea makes sense here, an intergraded spiritual and living seems most appriopriate. I'm not even sure you need a specific path to tell you what you believe. If you need a community of like-minded people, take a look at some of the following keywords:
Green Living
Voluntary Simplicity
Organic Living

Those are wonderful ideas, thank you! I'm already working on the voluntary simplicity, simply out of frustration. About six months ago, in a fit of frustrated angst, I threw out quite a number of things that I "owned." I got rid of my bed's box spring, so now it's just a mattress on the floor. I love sleeping closer to the floor. One step at a time, ne?

quantum_leaper

While having beliefs are nice, we have to live in the real world. Unless you want to go back to the days of the caveman and go live in a cave, pick berries from bushes and e drink from rivers. The earth does not produce shelter for freee(Unless we are talking about caves).

I know that's the way things are, and I find it terribly depressing. I also don't merely accept that just because most people are living in the "real world" (whatever that means) that I should, too. That somehow they all know better than I.

Deoridhe

I am disturbed by people who try to distance themselves from civilization using the claim that it is "unnatural." It seems an inherently false dichotomy. I love beautiful mountains. I also love beautiful overpasses (have you ever seen one of those three or four curve dealies that are like giant, interwoven bridges? GORGEOUS!). A drive away from modern, western civilization (MWC) I can see, but I also question how conversant these people are with hunter-gatherer style living (HGL).

Yes, while I would like to distance myself at least a little from the rest of western civilization, I am concerned about becoming warped by my own ideas. I wouldn't want to become one of those crazy eco-hippies who believe everything modern is evil, and those who choose to live in cities are choosing some sort of evil path. I know better than that. Hell, I love technology as much as the next gadget-geek.

I just don't think I like the idea of being completely dependent on artifice for survival. I think what I'm getting at is that I like the idea of having more direct control over what sustains me. I feel too distanced from what keeps me alive - food, air, water. These things are just "there," and I never see where they come from.

Deoridhe

HGL is very physically demanding and very time consuming. One of the side effects of MWC is that much less time is given to food gathering and cooking and much more is given to utilization of the cortex of the brain. Neither of these is inherently superior or inferior to the other, but before lauding the virtues of HGL, I'd recommend spending a year living it. :nod:

That's a sensible suggestions. To try it for a year. Certainly there is no way I could simply jump into it all at once. Gradual integration makes more sense. You also bring up a good point that because more time is spent cultivating food sources, less time is devoted to intellectualism. I'm perfectly comfortable with that, actually.

TheDisreputableDog

quantum_leaper

But we moved away from the barter system years ago and money is nesscity in this day and age.Hell there has been money around for thousands of years.

True, the barter system is a less modern economy, and an economy based on currency is more flexible than barter, but just because something has been happening for thousands of years doesn't automatically mean that it's a good thing or a desirable thing for everyone. Some people like money, some people don't. Some people who like money don't have any, and some people who don't like money have to just deal with it. Sometimes, with hard work and a bit of luck, you get what you want.

Then there's the fact that money makes a lot of people greedy. People do some very ******** up things for money. It makes me uncomfortable to think that my life as it is - who I am, where I live, what I do - could all be bought and sold and I'd have very little say in the matter.

TeaDidikai

I'd like to further suggest that different regions have better luck supporting an Outdoor Nature based WildCraft/Hunting lifestyle.

In the Pacific NW, we have beaches for shellfish, forests for elk, deer, boar, etc- I would be totally screwed if I was land locked- or worse, in the middle of a field of grains.

Yes, I'd probably have to move from where I'm presently living, where there's snow on the ground for up to eight months of the year.

MST3Kakalina

Jizo, have you read Walden? It's not really of any practical use, but it certainly seems like you would like it.

I have not, but I'll certainly look into it/him/her(?)  

[MST3Kakalina]

Him. Henry David Thoreau. Walden is considered sort of his masterpiece, the cornerstone of American Transcendentalism.

If you don't mind a printout or a computer screen, here's the Project Gutenberg free (as in freedom AND beer) version of it:

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/205

It's probably my favourite book of all time.

/English major dork

Also, skip the first chapter. It's pretty much useless to the rest of the text, at least the first time through.