Controling spells

[Rezorian]

Okay, I read the first bunch of posts and skipped the latter, so if this has been said already: Sorry.

In my experience, "controlling someone" takes a lot of focus and energy (I mean, sometimes doing the small things is draining. Oh, and a disclaimer: I don't control. Im going by what I've seen, not done)

So, lets look at what I guess is happening first: She is out for attention and has little to no real power. The only effect she can have is if you believe she is doing something and add your energy to it to make it happen. I had a friend that thought a guy was cursing him once. He didn't know, and I called bullshit. He stopped having to worry about it after that.

In the event that she does have any real power (and going by your descryptions of her actions I doubt it. She sounds like an attention seeker, not a being of power) there are lots of protection things you can do. Try a Witches Bottle spell (google it, you'll find lots). I have a Witches Ladder in my home to protect me (It acts like a dream catcher, but catches negitivity instead of bad dreams). I have blood seals on my door (Too complicated a spell for me to want to describe right now. PM me if you want to know more). There are lots of ways to protect yourself. Practice shielding techniques.

In all probability she isn't any threat, and was just trying to psych you out.  

[TeaDidikai]

It's been said Sutekh.

Although- modern Witch Bottles get under my skin. The salt and pins is a little absurd to me. I much perfer the classic, urine, blood, nails, broken glass, razor blades, hair fingernails etc- sealed and set over a fire.  

[Rezorian]

TeaDidikai

It's been said Sutekh.

Although- modern Witch Bottles get under my skin. The salt and pins is a little absurd to me. I much perfer the classic, urine, blood, nails, broken glass, razor blades, hair fingernails etc- sealed and set over a fire.

My witches bottle involves blood, urine, semen, nails, glass, blades, hair, finger bits, etc only without the sealing and setting over a fire. It's such a primal spell (is that a good way to describe it?) that I think shying away from the body fluids takes a lot away from it.  

[TeaDidikai]

Sutekh

TeaDidikai

It's been said Sutekh.

Although- modern Witch Bottles get under my skin. The salt and pins is a little absurd to me. I much perfer the classic, urine, blood, nails, broken glass, razor blades, hair fingernails etc- sealed and set over a fire.

My witches bottle involves blood, urine, semen, nails, glass, blades, hair, finger bits, etc only without the sealing and setting over a fire. It's such a primal spell (is that a good way to describe it?) that I think shying away from the body fluids takes a lot away from it.

I can respect that.

I'm just really tired of Scott Cunningham's Salt, Pins and Needles thing.  

[saint dreya]

hmm, it's been a long time since i thought about this particular topic.

i still can't bring myself to control someone. at least, if they aren't a danger to themselves and society. then, i could probably get myself to try something.

otherwise, i feel like i'm taking away their ability to choose. i can't put myself up to doing a friendship or love 'spell' with a direct person as the target. i just don't see it being rather genuine if i make them like me, and it doesn't really help my mentality knowing that i only made them accept and like me. i'd much rather find those who would like me without changing them or myself. i imagine it's a tad easier as well, XP  

[TeaDidikai]

Quote:

otherwise, i feel like i'm taking away their ability to choose. i can't put myself up to doing a friendship or love 'spell' with a direct person as the target. i just don't see it being rather genuine

A couple questions come up from this position.

1) What makes their right to choose more valid than your right to choose for yourself?

2) Genuine is a funny term when it comes to emotions. If a spell invokes a feeling into an individual- does not the fact that they are experiencing it make it genuine? If one feels love, hate, like, dislike, lust, repultion etc- by another's charm?  

[saint dreya]

TeaDidikai

1) What makes their right to choose more valid than your right to choose for yourself?

i can't realy justify who's right to choose is more valid. i figure as long as no lasting harm is done, i can just let them be.

i'm trying to come up with situations that might further clarify what i mean and my avoiding the idea of controlling a person. and, alas, i'm at a loss.

TeaDidikai

2) Genuine is a funny term when it comes to emotions. If a spell invokes a feeling into an individual- does not the fact that they are experiencing it make it genuine? If one feels love, hate, like, dislike, lust, repultion etc- by another's charm?

how i look at it, imposing my will on another to think/act/feel a certain way is me taking away their choices. if i have a conversation with someone and let something slip that influences them, they still have the choice to follow up on that slip in a positive or negative way. forcing them (that is some of how i see in controlling a person) constitutes to kidnapping in my mind (legally, if someone holds a gun to your head and tells you to move or do something else, that is considered kidnapping).

i'm in no way saying 'don't control people, it's bad', i just can't see much of a reason for me to do it. i can't justify me doing it, and it seems akin to a tool of sorts for me. i'd just as soon use another tool.  

[TeaDidikai]

phoenix_shadowwolf

i can't realy justify who's right to choose is more valid. i figure as long as no lasting harm is done, i can just let them be.

i'm trying to come up with situations that might further clarify what i mean and my avoiding the idea of controlling a person. and, alas, i'm at a loss.

Okay- allow me to further the discussion. There is an individual you are interested in. How do you know you are removing their free will if you cast a spell upon them to draw them into an attraction to you in order for you to date them?

Furthermore- it is within your free will to cast such a spell, why would you sacrifice your free will for theirs (assuming that such a spell is an infraction against their will)

Quote:

how i look at it, imposing my will on another to think/act/feel a certain way is me taking away their choices. if i have a conversation with someone and let something slip that influences them, they still have the choice to follow up on that slip in a positive or negative way. forcing them (that is some of how i see in controlling a person) constitutes to kidnapping in my mind (legally, if someone holds a gun to your head and tells you to move or do something else, that is considered kidnapping).

i'm in no way saying 'don't control people, it's bad', i just can't see much of a reason for me to do it. i can't justify me doing it, and it seems akin to a tool of sorts for me. i'd just as soon use another tool.

But even if you hold a gun to their head- they have the free will- the choice to allow someone to shoot them. twisted  

[saint dreya]

TeaDidikai

phoenix_shadowwolf

i can't realy justify who's right to choose is more valid. i figure as long as no lasting harm is done, i can just let them be.

i'm trying to come up with situations that might further clarify what i mean and my avoiding the idea of controlling a person. and, alas, i'm at a loss.

Okay- allow me to further the discussion. There is an individual you are interested in. How do you know you are removing their free will if you cast a spell upon them to draw them into an attraction to you in order for you to date them?

how do i know that i'm allowing their free will to shine?

i guess with that, i'd put it more into the context of doing a spell of attracting those who would be attracted naturally. not limiting it to any specific person, but paving the way for those that do like me (or would) and putting up a giant 'welcome' sign.

TeaDidikai

Furthermore- it is within your free will to cast such a spell, why would you sacrifice your free will for theirs (assuming that such a spell is an infraction against their will)

i still can't reconcile holding one's free will over another. i can't say their's is better than mine, and i can't say mine is better than their's.

TeaDidikai

Quote:

how i look at it, imposing my will on another to think/act/feel a certain way is me taking away their choices. if i have a conversation with someone and let something slip that influences them, they still have the choice to follow up on that slip in a positive or negative way. forcing them (that is some of how i see in controlling a person) constitutes to kidnapping in my mind (legally, if someone holds a gun to your head and tells you to move or do something else, that is considered kidnapping).

i'm in no way saying 'don't control people, it's bad', i just can't see much of a reason for me to do it. i can't justify me doing it, and it seems akin to a tool of sorts for me. i'd just as soon use another tool.

But even if you hold a gun to their head- they have the free will- the choice to allow someone to shoot them. twisted

true, yet as i see it, a controlling spell doesn't give them that choice. for me to enact a controlling spell, i would feel like i was committing something tantamount to rape/kidnapping.  

[TeaDidikai]

phoenix_shadowwolf

i still can't reconcile holding one's free will over another. i can't say their's is better than mine, and i can't say mine is better than their's.

Except- that is precisely what you are doing. You are saying their free will is more important than yours.

They have a choice. You have a choice. You put their choice above your choice you are empowering their free will at determent to your desires.

In essence- you are sacrificing your ability to act in accordance with your will to attain your desires for the sake of theirs.

It's a form of magical martyrdom that is very common within the modern disintegrated view of magic.

When did the idea of being charming, enchanting, bewitching and the like fall upon mere physical and social graces!?  

[Gardenia]

Honestly? This person sounds like a complete drama toad. Don't give it another thought.  

[saint dreya]

TeaDidikai

phoenix_shadowwolf

i still can't reconcile holding one's free will over another. i can't say their's is better than mine, and i can't say mine is better than their's.

Except- that is precisely what you are doing. You are saying their free will is more important than yours.

They have a choice. You have a choice. You put their choice above your choice you are empowering their free will at determent to your desires.

In essence- you are sacrificing your ability to act in accordance with your will to attain your desires for the sake of theirs.

It's a form of magical martyrdom that is very common within the modern disintegrated view of magic.

When did the idea of being charming, enchanting, bewitching and the like fall upon mere physical and social graces!?

as i look at it, regarding love spells, why can't i just use a less magical way of getting what i want? why do i have to resort to a spell to get someone to like me when i could go out and find someone who could give me a healthier relationship?

maybe i'm bordering 'what's good for one' with 'free will'.  

[TeaDidikai]

phoenix_shadowwolf

as i look at it, regarding love spells, why can't i just use a less magical way of getting what i want?

Because magic as a practice often works best as an intergraded path.

Quote:

why do i have to resort to a spell to get someone to like me when i could go out and find someone who could give me a healthier relationship?

Please prove that Charm = Unhealthy Relationship.  

[Sivirs]

phoenix_shadowwolf

as i look at it, regarding love spells, why can't i just use a less magical way of getting what i want?

I better not catch you wearing a bra when you're going out. That's not how your breasts REALLY look and it's deception to suggest otherwise and it's manipulation of peoples' image of you. And whoosh, I won't even start on the multitude of deceptions you can achieve with makeup.

Perfume is right out too, it contains scents intended to bait the desired sex and by exploiting their biochemistry you're trying to futz with their free will.

etc.

How is wearing makeup, wearing support underwear, embellishing a little to impress your date, or putting on your dateable personality different than doing a spell to achieve the same end?

Is it the assumption that there's only one kind of love spell and it requires making a judgment-impaired zombie? There are spells that will completely disable (or at least sufficiently weaken) someone's free will and good judgment until they'll be with you, but there are also drugs, and cunning manipulations and lies, that will achieve the same goal. There are also spells that will push a person in the direction you want them to go, and I really don't think it's any more unethical than putting on a bra and some tummy-sucking-in underwear, throwing on nice clothes, hiding your blemishes with makeup, etc. Some people won't care for it because it's too much effort, or they want it to happen on its own, and other people like that extra boost in looking your best for someone you're trying to attract. It comes down to personal preference, but aside from the most crazed of puritans, I don't think anyone's really out there protesting perfume as a violation of free will.

I wouldn't want a judgment-impaired zombie, no (except maybe to carry my bags around for me or something), but if there's someone you want to look your way and decide "Wait, I like that person" then I don't think a love spell's a bad idea. It may last or it may not, but people pull non-magical "LOOKIT MEEE!!!!!" stunts all the time. 'S not particularly different, and they get about the same results. That's not the spell's fault, it's that we don't always pick the best matches, or we don't know what'll happen down the road that affects the relationship.

Now a discussion on whether spells to get someone to have sex with you are to be considered date rape and if so where the line between bringing out their subconscious desires or you or forcing them to go against their wishes lies, if there is such a line, that could go to interesting places. But love spells? Eh. I don't do them, but then I haven't wanted anyone badly enough to try.  

[saint dreya]

TeaDidikai

phoenix_shadowwolf

as i look at it, regarding love spells, why can't i just use a less magical way of getting what i want?

Because magic as a practice often works best as an intergraded path.

Quote:

why do i have to resort to a spell to get someone to like me when i could go out and find someone who could give me a healthier relationship?

Please prove that Charm = Unhealthy Relationship.

i think that's partly where i was getting mixed up, and Sivirs' post brought up my other ideas on this.

Sivirs

phoenix_shadowwolf

as i look at it, regarding love spells, why can't i just use a less magical way of getting what i want?

I better not catch you wearing a bra when you're going out.

personally, my boobs are entirely too big for me to be comfortable without one, xp

Sivirs

That's not how your breasts REALLY look and it's deception to suggest otherwise and it's manipulation of peoples' image of you.

some people might, yes. but it's not controlling, to my view, so much as influencing. like an ad.

Sivirs

And whoosh, I won't even start on the multitude of deceptions you can achieve with makeup.

makeup can go either way. working with the public, they tend to respond to a prettier face than an ugly one.

Sivirs

Perfume is right out too, it contains scents intended to bait the desired sex and by exploiting their biochemistry you're trying to futz with their free will.

i don't know about you, but i really don't enjoy hanging out with someone who stinks. again, though, it helps in the work environment to present a hygenic image. i don't want someone forgoing using the company i work for just because i didn't put deodorant on, and so they thought that i didn't take showers.

hell, to even keep a job now (in any work place i've ever been), they require you to present yourself as clean and to keep up with the newest hygenic ways.

Sivirs

How is wearing makeup, wearing support underwear, embellishing a little to impress your date, or putting on your dateable personality different than doing a spell to achieve the same end?

influencing v. controlling. at least, that's how i see the difference.

Sivirs

Is it the assumption that there's only one kind of love spell and it requires making a judgment-impaired zombie? There are spells that will completely disable (or at least sufficiently weaken) someone's free will and good judgment until they'll be with you, but there are also drugs, and cunning manipulations and lies, that will achieve the same goal.

the drugs are illegal.

Sivirs

There are also spells that will push a person in the direction you want them to go,

and that looks more to me like an advertisment than actually controlling the person. i see it more as influencing their choice, not making it for them.

Sivirs

Some people won't care for it because it's too much effort, or they want it to happen on its own, and other people like that extra boost in looking your best for someone you're trying to attract. It comes down to personal preference, but aside from the most crazed of puritans, I don't think anyone's really out there protesting perfume as a violation of free will.

and i don't, personally, like to do anything involving controlling a person unless they mean to infringe on another's rights.

that's my personal view. i don't expect anyone else to follow that view, and i can't really justify or negate anyone else doing a control spell. i just can't justify why i would do one.

Sivirs

I wouldn't want a judgment-impaired zombie, no (except maybe to carry my bags around for me or something), but if there's someone you want to look your way and decide "Wait, I like that person" then I don't think a love spell's a bad idea. It may last or it may not, but people pull non-magical "LOOKIT MEEE!!!!!" stunts all the time.

and that really seems to bear more of a resemblance to an ad, which is effectively drawing attention, but still leaving it up to the other person to choose how much they will follow up.

for me to do a controlling spell, i would feel like i was putting strings on that person's limbs and then literally 'walking' them through what i wanted them to do, like a marionnette. meanwhile, placing an influencing spell on someone or no one in particular, to me looks like a bright, colorful and flashing ad. it draws attention, sure. but i'm not pulling their strings.

TeaDidikai > Charm = Unhealthy Relationship

i can't prove that and won't even try. there is the possibility of course, but then the possibility's there to be the best relationship ever.

but i dont see charm = control. i see charm as an influencing agent.