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 Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:24 pm
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Neko_Bast Quote: "Wicca is a Neo-Pagan religion embracing pre-Christian Deities, Inaccurate, since Wicca is younger than Christianity, the worship of the Wiccan Lord and Lady is younger than Christianity. So- within the very first sentance, we have shown that your concept of Wicca is false. Quote: and have a specific ritual structure that has particular methodologies for creating sacred space, working the elementals, involving the divine, and raising magickal power. Accurate. So- prove that your practice is part of this. Prove that the rituals you practice are the same as the ones the Wiccans do. Quote: Wiccans follow a basic code of ethics, embodied in the Wiccan Rede: "An it harm none, do what thee wilt". Which isn't actually the Wiccan Rede, the Rede itself is much longer. Good gods did this author mess up. Quote: Wiccans believe in both the positive and negative consequences of their actions, sometimes called "karma". Which isn't karma. And here we see why I take issue with Eclectics. Yay for bastardizing concepts without a hint of scholarship applied to one's theology. ~stops right there~ Okay- here's the pathetic thing. I, a non-Wiccan, can answer a fair number of the questions Reagun posed. If your "studies" can't do that- then how the hell are the rest of us to take you seriously? Edited to correct a typo. |
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Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:25 pm
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Neko_Bast wow...you really didn't read the articles whee
Proof they're lineaged please.
Neko_Bast Lets see..... This is an interesting question. What does qualify? I think I'll take a quote that puts it much better than I could ever wright it. "Wicca is a Neo-Pagan religion embracing pre-Christian Deities, the holiness of nature, and the use of magick. It pays homage to both the masculine and feminine Divine, can have male and female members, and can be practiced in either solitary or group (coven) situations. Wiccans follow the eight major Sabbats of the ancient world (Samhain, Yule, Imbolc, Spring Equinox, Beltane, Midsummer, Lughnassadh, and Mabon), and have a specific ritual structure that has particular methodologies for creating sacred space, working the elementals, involving the divine, and raising magickal power. Wicca is a ceremonial religion, one that is practiced ritually, and that has certain basic ritual tools to aid in its practice. Wiccans follow a basic code of ethics, embodied in the Wiccan Rede: "An it harm none, do what thee wilt". Wiccans believe in both the positive and negative consequences of their actions, sometimes called "karma". Wiccans do not proselytize, but they will share what they know about their faith to those who seek."
I see your quote and raise you Hutton's declaration that the Lord and Lady are modern inventions which do NOT predate Christianity.
Neko_Bast I was studying on my own from books and askind advice from people on the internet, if you must know.
What proof do you have they are lineaged Wiccan authors.
Neko_Bast Lineaged material? Well, I don't know if what I use is Lineaged enuff for you, but once I do something once and it works I use it again. I feel that creating my own material is better than just using something that was given to me that I was told was "the right way."
You don't seem to understand what I mean.
What information from lineaged sources do you use for your mystery work, for revealing the names of the Lord and Lady.
How do you verify that the religion you're following is Wicca.
Quote: Why are you insistant on using the term Wicca?
Why are you insisting that I can't be? I use the term Wicca because of many reasons. The main one is because when I think of my self as anything other than Wiccan it dosn't feel right. I was initiated by the God and Goddess, who are you to question them.
I am the holder of a first degree in Wicca from a lineaged coven.
The Lord and Lady of Wicca empowered me to question you on this, as laid down by them through Gardner in the 161 Rules of Wicca.
Neko_Bast Sure, I don't know every thing.
That's nice.
Neko_Bast I'm sure that they know things that I don't, but I don't feel the need to know them.
Still not answering my question
Neko_Bast If I did, I would find a teacher in a lineaged coven. The main difference between them and me, in my mind, is that they all do things the same way, have secerts that I won't know, and feel the need to be told what is the right way to do things. When I'm told something is "the right way" I test it to see if it fits with me. If it does I incorporate it into my Path.
Since Wicca is a secret-having religion and since the Mysteries of Wicca grant context to the outer-court material, I'd say that that little piece of your quote just proved to me and to everyone else here that you admit to not being wiccan and that you feel that "Because I feel I'm wiccan" is enough of a justification for you.
Now, you asked me what evidence I'd accept. I gave a list of questions.
Answer them. In clear direct English.
This is not about security or insecurity it's about truth.
I'm calling you a spreader of falsehoods. The idea that Wicca is a "do what you want as long as it feels good" is a lie and it's one that I've devoted a lot of time and energy to proving to be so. You are trying to advocate and spread that lie. |
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Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:28 pm
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reagun ban Yes, I demand. Perhaps I should have put that in bold. You most certainly do owe me something. You are undermining the work I did for initiation by claiming it's unneccessary.
Well demand all you want. I'm saying it was unneccessary for me to be initiated by a coven. Not that it was unneccessary. So in reality I'm not undermining you work.
Quote: Neko_Bast I don't have to prove myself to you, because I'm not that insicure. And that's a cop out.
No its not. I really feel no need to prove myself to you.
Quote: Neko_Bast You obviously didn't read the articles. You seem to misunderstand me. Those articles are based on a major fallacy, that those who are not part of a religion (ecclectic pagans who decided to call themselves wiccan mostly because it is easier than ecclectic pagan) deciding that they are part of a religion (wicca). Show me an article written by a LINEAGED wiccan which maintains your position or stop whining.
when I do I'll send it to you. |
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Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:29 pm
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Neko_Bast No. I'm saying that there is more to Wicca than what they know.
Quote: Quote: No it's not. It's insulting to you. It's like watching a Child be told no by a parent and because the toddler isn't listening, they through a pissy fit. No I'm not, you are.
Quote: Why? Because you can't see my point of veiw? |
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Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:40 pm
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Neko_Bast Well demand all you want. I'm saying it was unneccessary for me to be initiated by a coven. Not that it was unneccessary. So in reality I'm not undermining you work.
You are stating that you are Wiccan.
You are stating that you do not need to be initiated to be Wiccan.
I was initiated.
Therefore you are stating that I was initiated without need.
Tell me where that train of logic breaks down please.
Neko_Bast No its not. I really feel no need to prove myself to you.
Whether or not you feel there is a need is irrelevant, it is there.
You need to prove it or you need to stop arguing and admit your defeat. Those are your only two choices. By posting this "argument" you lose the ability to hide behind your security.
Neko_Bast when I do I'll send it to you.
Is that an admission that you don't actually have a leg to stand on? Oh, I think it is..... |
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Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:46 pm
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TeaDidikai Neko_Bast "Wicca is a Neo-Pagan religion embracing pre-Christian Deities,
So- within the very first sentance, we have shown that your concept of Wicca is false.
Well, since Gardner was intiated by a coven then they, acording to you, wasn't worshiping the Lord and Lady. Do you have proff that they were created by him?
Quote: and have a specific ritual structure that has particular methodologies for creating sacred space, working the elementals, involving the divine, and raising magickal power.
How would I prove it when every tradition dose it slitly differently? I use the same rituals every time I do any of those said methodologies.
Quote: Wiccans follow a basic code of ethics, embodied in the Wiccan Rede: "An it harm none, do what thee wilt".
Quote: Wiccans believe in both the positive and negative consequences of their actions, sometimes called "karma".
Karma: The effects of a person's past actions on his or her present and future state. Yah....that was one part I have to agree with you biggrin |
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Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:53 pm
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Neko_Bast Well, since Gardner was intiated by a coven then they, acording to you, wasn't worshiping the Lord and Lady. Do you have proff that they were created by him?
Gardner was initiated by a Traditional English Witch's coven, not a Wiccan coven. Since it is historically dictated by Hutton in "The Triumph of the Moon" that The Lord and Lady of Wicca did NOT exist before the invention Wicca, which was invented in the fifties, we don't need to prove anything. The burden of proof is on you.
Neko_Bast How would I prove it when every tradition dose it slitly differently? I use the same rituals every time I do any of those said methodologies.
Right. Prove that your rituals match up to any valid tradition of wicca.
Neko_Bast I acutally do know the rest of the Rede.
Which is irrelevant as it does NOT sum up the rules of Wicca. You'd need the 161 rules of Wicca for that.
Neko_Bast Karma: The effects of a person's past actions on his or her present and future state. Yah....that was one part I have to agree with you biggrin
Why haven't you included Dharma in that?
No definition (other than the fallacious bastardised western versions) of Karma makes sense without Dharma? |
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Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:53 pm
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TeaDidikai Neko_Bast No. I'm saying that there is more to Wicca than what they know. No, there is more to your path than what is Wiccan. A valid position. However, unless you practice recon Celtic Folk Magic, or are an Intiated Wiccan, you don't get to steal a word that does not belong to you. Next thing you know you'll be calling yourself an African American Mombi.
Quote: "I know you are but what am I!?" rofl rofl rofl
lol xd
Quote: Why? Because you can't see my point of veiw? |
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Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:57 pm
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Neko_Bast Well, since Gardner was intiated by a coven then they, acording to you, wasn't worshiping the Lord and Lady. Do you have proff that they were created by him?
Gardner was intiated into a Witchcraft Coven. He created his religion.
Quote: How would I prove it when every tradition dose it slitly differently? I use the same rituals every time I do any of those said methodologies.
Quote: I acutally do know the rest of the Rede.
Quote: Karma: The effects of a person's past actions on his or her present and future state. Yah....that was one part I have to agree with you biggrin |
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Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:59 pm
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reagun ban Quote: I acutally do know the rest of the Rede. Which is irrelevant as it does NOT sum up the rules of Wicca. You'd need the 161 rules of Wicca for that.
Wow....I found it on the internet...... xd Guess I shoud read it.
Quote: Quote: Karma: The effects of a person's past actions on his or her present and future state. Yah....that was one part I have to agree with you biggrin Why haven't you included Dharma in that? No definition (other than the fallacious bastardised western versions) of Karma makes sense without Dharma?
the quote I got that from didn't have it. but you have a point. |
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Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:05 pm
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TeaDidikai Quote: How would I prove it when every tradition dose it slitly differently? I use the same rituals every time I do any of those said methodologies. Except you don't invoke the same goddess and god for one. When was the last time you did the five fold kiss? You're not practicing a religion based on Wicca with a couple things added, you are practicing your personal concept of religion with a couple Wiccan things added. I am not a paramedic because I can do CPR, a Paramedic does CPR because he is a paramedic with that skill. Understand?
since the five fold kiss needs someone elts to partisipate (atlest that is what I learned, if I'm wrong, sorry)I think I last did it during a ritual with my fiance.
Quote: Quote: I acutally do know the rest of the Rede. Which supports my point: Your source is invalid.
Quote: Quote: Karma: The effects of a person's past actions on his or her present and future state. Yah....that was one part I have to agree with you biggrin That isn't what Karma is. |
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Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:06 pm
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Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:09 pm
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Neko_Bast TeaDidikai Neko_Bast No. I'm saying that there is more to Wicca than what they know. No, there is more to your path than what is Wiccan. A valid position. However, unless you practice recon Celtic Folk Magic, or are an Intiated Wiccan, you don't get to steal a word that does not belong to you. Next thing you know you'll be calling yourself an African American Mombi. I have no idea what a Mombi is but that is funny. ^-^
Quote: Tea Didikai No- because your argument is full of logical fallacies, including (but not limited to): argumentum ad verecundiam, argumentum ad novitatem, Argumentum ad nauseam, Argumentum ad numerum, Straw Man, shifting the Burden of Proof, False premise... that is to say, your argument is more Holy than the Pope. aparenly it's not becaues there is a large magority of people that think the same way. |
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Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:13 pm
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Neko_Bast since the five fold kiss needs someone elts to partisipate (atlest that is what I learned, if I'm wrong, sorry)I think I last did it during a ritual with my fiance.
Quote: that just happens to be the most popular part of the Rede.
Quote: Sorry that was the deffinition that I knew. |
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Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:47 pm
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