Imbolc as a bastardized Pop-pagan Holiday

[TheDisreputableDog]

phoenix_shadowwolf

from what i've heard though, imbolc can't be calculated at all. A History of Pagan Europe says that imbolc was generally celebrated when the ewes began lactating, something which didn't happen the same day every year.

Which was what the last bit of my post was about, given that I was just conjecturing. 3nodding I was just saying that you could calculate Imbolc that way. Although, I suppose, what with such a diverse division of labor that most of us are no longer directly "tied to the land," if you can't mark it by what the sheep are actually doing it's six-to-one-half-a-dozen-to-the-other whether you pick a date for it to be observed every year (like Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Day isn't on his actually birthday) or you calculate it so that it's actually the quarter.

I'm not sure that made sense, but I just woke up.  

[Pelta]

So my question is, what relevance does lactating sheep have to someone who lives in the city and has never laid eyes on one? What cause do we have to celebrate?  

[TheDisreputableDog]

missmagpie

So my question is, what relevance does lactating sheep have to someone who lives in the city and has never laid eyes on one? What cause do we have to celebrate?

...Good point.  

[CuAnnan]

TheDisreputableDog

Well, unless you live on a farm where things like the harvest and first frost and the birth of lambs actually matter to you, look up the solstice and equinox, see how many days there are between them, divide by two, and count.

No, this is the result of Solar calendar conditioning. I can understand why you'd think this, but it doesn't work that way. Imbolg, Samhain, Bealtaine and Lughnasadh aren't solar events, they're lunar.

TheDisreputableDog

Because our current calendar fits pretty well with the Earth's rotation, you can guess the approximate window for the cross quarters because they're going to be around the same time every year, but not necessarily the same day.

That depends entirely on who you ask. If you ask a good astronomer or astrologer, they'll take into account leap seconds which get added because our calendar does not line up with the earth's rotation around the sun (which happens, leap seconds excluded, once every 365.2494 days, or every 31557548.16 seconds. Happy to provide calculations if required)

TheDisreputableDog

Ever notice how the same date every year rotates through the days of the week? With past calendars, I believe, the months weren't tied to the seasons like our current calendar. If you celebrated Imbolc on February 2 every year, you'd end up celebrating it in the summer eventually, but the lambs would have been born between the winter solstice and the spring equinox anyway. I suppose we've just gotten lazy, which can apply to a lot of things.

Urm... again you're

Whoever's job it was to keep track of astronomical events would have known when to have the various feasts and celebrations. It's unlikely that the common people would have known anything about it, given that they were (gasp) peasants and if the peasants know too much, they tend to not want to be peasants anymore. Although, if the lambs were born late one year because of weather patterns or something, I don't know whether the celebration would stick to the astronomically correct time to confer blessings on the yet-to-be born or delayed to give thanks for the already-born.
Only if you try to tie the lunar events to a solar calendar.

TheDisreputableDog

And forgive me if any of this is wrong. It's been awhile since I had this stuff, and I'm not Reagun.

TDD.reagunsRespectFor++;  

[TheDisreputableDog]

reagun ban

No, this is the result of Solar calendar conditioning. I can understand why you'd think this, but it doesn't work that way. Imbolg, Samhain, Bealtaine and Lughnasadh aren't solar events, they're lunar.

Oh. So, how do we know when they are?

reagun ban

That depends entirely on who you ask. If you ask a good astronomer or astrologer, they'll take into account leap seconds which get added because our calendar does not line up with the earth's rotation around the sun (which happens, leap seconds excluded, once every 365.2494 days, or every 31557548.16 seconds. Happy to provide calculations if required)

I think that's what I was getting at. I just didn't say it in so many numbers. February 2nd isn't at the same point on the Earth's orbit every year because the calendar is close but not quite; which is why we have leap years, but even those leave the tiniest bit off.

reagun ban

TDD.reagunsRespectFor++;

whee  

[CuAnnan]

TheDisreputableDog

Oh. So, how do we know when they are?

The full moon of the month they fall in, silly. xp

TheDisreputableDog

I think that's what I was getting at. I just didn't say it in so many numbers. February 2nd isn't at the same point on the Earth's orbit every year because the calendar is close but not quite; which is why we have leap years, but even those leave the tiniest bit off.

Nobody other than astronomers and really hard core astrologers (the Zoroastrians would have accounted for them in their year makeup, I believe, but I get this info from my fiance, the astronomer) give a s**t about anything shorter than leap years, though.

I'm kinda bummed no one wants my calculations, they took me a whole five minutes to do.  

[Deoridhe]

reagun ban

I'm kinda bummed no one wants my calculations, they took me a whole five minutes to do.

*wants*

As a side note, I don't celebrate any off the Quarter holidays because, well, the cultyre that worshipped my gods didn't. I don't celebrate the "eat all your food before it rots" or the "wow, look at all this food, lets chow down" harvest festivals because 1) I have a refrigerator and 2) I shop at a grocery store.

You silly Celts and your moons. whee How do Blue moons figure in for modern calendar purposes? Like, I mean, does it all even out in the end ultimately, or do you calendarize by the moon so you have thirteen months?  

[TheDisreputableDog]

Deoridhe

reagun ban

I'm kinda bummed no one wants my calculations, they took me a whole five minutes to do.

*wants*

Same. I'm just not on the ball today.

Deoridhe

As a side note, I don't celebrate any off the Quarter holidays because, well, the cultyre that worshipped my gods didn't. I don't celebrate the "eat all your food before it rots" or the "wow, look at all this food, lets chow down" harvest festivals because 1) I have a refrigerator and 2) I shop at a grocery store.

That is, well, hilarious.

reagun ban

The full moon of the month they fall in, silly. xp

Ohhh. (the sound of dawning comprehension) So Imbolg would be the 12th this year?  

[TeaDidikai]

Deoridhe

reagun ban

I'm kinda bummed no one wants my calculations, they took me a whole five minutes to do.

*wants*

Likewise.

Quote:

As a side note, I don't celebrate any off the Quarter holidays because, well, the cultyre that worshipped my gods didn't. I don't celebrate the "eat all your food before it rots" or the "wow, look at all this food, lets chow down" harvest festivals because 1) I have a refrigerator and 2) I shop at a grocery store.

I do, kind of... Well, my path's versions of them, plus the local heathens I hang out with have holidays too. See, I garden, hunt, fish and wild craft- and you should see what happens when a garden explodes.

There isn't enough freezers in the neighborhood to account for full tags and a garden.  

[CuAnnan]

Right, as we all know, leap years occur on years who's digits are divisible by four except in the case of centuries, where the year's digit's have to be divisible by 400. (And this is where I realise I've probably made a mistake in my earlier calculation, DAMMIT).

This gives us the situation that, in 400 years, there are 400*365.25-3 days which is 146100 - 3 days which is 146097 days in 400 years which is actually 365.2425 days. My bad. This is what I get for listening to my Astronomer boyfriend. Pfft, what would he know.  

[CuAnnan]

Deoridhe

*wants*

As a side note, I don't celebrate any off the Quarter holidays because, well, the cultyre that worshipped my gods didn't. I don't celebrate the "eat all your food before it rots" or the "wow, look at all this food, lets chow down" harvest festivals because 1) I have a refrigerator and 2) I shop at a grocery store.

ROFLMAO

Deoridhe

You silly Celts and your moons. whee How do Blue moons figure in for modern calendar purposes? Like, I mean, does it all even out in the end ultimately, or do you calendarize by the moon so you have thirteen months?

Again, you're falling into the modern trap of solar thought. We had a completely different calendar system, ignoring all together the sun
http://www.livingmyths.com/Celticyear.htm

While I disagree with mainstream thought on this, probably because of the trad-influences, and believe that Bealtaine was the new year (I have a few online cites for this only, I learned much from a fam trad after all)
[The only Cite I could remember], it has the cycles of the years right.  

[Deoridhe]

reagun ban

Deoridhe

*wants*

As a side note, I don't celebrate any off the Quarter holidays because, well, the cultyre that worshipped my gods didn't. I don't celebrate the "eat all your food before it rots" or the "wow, look at all this food, lets chow down" harvest festivals because 1) I have a refrigerator and 2) I shop at a grocery store.

ROFLMAO

Well, Tea points out above I could be doing things differently... but I'm NOT. Honestly, I'm really not all that earthy in of myself, and I think that while a small garden might entertain me, I tend to neglect those sorts of things because I suck. I can see the value of it, but I'm honestly glad I can go to the store instead of waiting two months for the tomatoes to grow.

reagun ban

Deoridhe

You silly Celts and your moons. whee How do Blue moons figure in for modern calendar purposes? Like, I mean, does it all even out in the end ultimately, or do you calendarize by the moon so you have thirteen months?

Again, you're falling into the modern trap of solar thought. We had a completely different calendar system, ignoring all together the sun
http://www.livingmyths.com/Celticyear.htm

While I disagree with mainstream thought on this, probably because of the trad-influences, and believe that Bealtaine was the new year (I have a few online cites for this only, I learned much from a fam trad after all)
[The only Cite I could remember], it has the cycles of the years right.

Heh, my CR person said that after two or three years of study she'd realized Bealtaine was the new year and SUDDENLY THINGS MADE MORE SENSE. I was dead amused when you independantly produced the same thing, citing what you were raised in.

I should tell her that; she'd probably appreciate knowing an Irish Family Trad agrees with her. I know she feels a little cut off sometimes.

And yes, I'm stuck in solar thinking. I'd shift to lunar for a few months to see what happened, but I suck at time anyway so it would most likely be bad. I'll check out the link and try to wrap my brain around it from the outside, though.  

[TheDisreputableDog]

Deoridhe

Well, Tea points out above I could be doing things differently... but I'm NOT.

Some of us don't live in a house year-round either. The most I can grow is maybe a little potted ivy and I killed that too. Even at home the deer will eat any garden unless you put up an eight-foot fence.

reagun ban

While I disagree with mainstream thought on this, probably because of the trad-influences, and believe that Bealtaine was the new year (I have a few online cites for this only, I learned much from a fam trad after all)

Speaking of Bealtaine and Imbolg, could you maybe provide the correct spellings or names for the other holidays? I've kind of picked up that the way you see them spelled most places is modernized/anglicized, but I have no Gaelic whatsoever.  

[TeaDidikai]

I'm painfully aware of what an anomaly I am.

Of an interesting note, due to the Slavic "Recon" influences there are some holidays that match well within this season.  

[Deoridhe]

TeaDidikai

I'm painfully aware of what an anomaly I am.

This isn't a bad thing.