Music and Magic

[TeaDidikai]

missmagpie

I'll get going on that for you. I won't be able to teach you anything about the psaltery (strings are not my forte), but I can try to teach you the basics of notation and music theory. It might take a while for me to put it together, but I'll see what I can do mrgreen .

You're so awesome. In fact- perhaps you could put it in here and explain some of the concepts in terms of their magical meaning?

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True, but if you had pretty altar tools like chalices and knives and such, you wouldn't use them to eat your dinner.

Actually, my tradition does. There's a pragmatic aspect to my faith that isn't part of mainstream neo-paganism on the whole.

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They would probably be kept sacred and revered to preserve their energy and psychodrama.

Which is only needed if one cannot tap into the forces naturally.

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If I wanted to go back to just listening to the song again like I usually would, it would be somewhat similar to using an athame to cut steak at dinner. You get my drift?

Not if it is grounded out afterwards. Does the use of computer techno-magic make it so you can't talk on Gaia on the same computer anymore?

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Other thoughts I've had on the subject: It occured to me in the shower today (ah the revelations one has in the shower) that the song "Under my Thumb" by the Rolling Stones could be used as an excellent domination spell/song. I probably wouldn't use it, but it's just one of those songs that fits perfectly to the desired effect. Several Beatles songs could be used as love spells. The one thing I noticed about both options, though, is that they are directed at women. They use "she" and "her". What if I wanted to cast the spell on a man? That would make most of my best choices of songs unusable. It could work if I sang along and changed all the pronouns, but not if I was using the song for its literal meaning.

Nice one.

I'm currently kicking around the use of "Haven't Seen You Lately" to reclaim debts owed by ex-lovers, "Blue" as an invocation of universal awareness, and "Waiting Wishing" as a love spell for someone who is only semi-aware of the ebb and flow of magic.

BNL's "If I had a Million Dollars" for properity magic would be a great one.

Edit: Oh! Luck be a Lady by ol' Blue Eyes for gambling magic!  

[TheDisreputableDog]

TeaDidikai

I'm currently kicking around the use of "Haven't Seen You Lately" to reclaim debts owed by ex-lovers...

Makes me think of "Song for the Dumped," except that it's too specific in terms of gender and circumstance.

I know I'm not contributing much to this discussion but watching Tea and Magpie talk is much more fun. wink  

[TeaDidikai]

TheDisreputableDog

TeaDidikai

I'm currently kicking around the use of "Haven't Seen You Lately" to reclaim debts owed by ex-lovers...

Makes me think of "Song for the Dumped," except that it's too specific in terms of gender and circumstance.

I know I'm not contributing much to this discussion but watching Tea and Magpie talk is much more fun. wink

Ah, but there might be someone who will fit that song perfectly.  

[TheDisreputableDog]

TeaDidikai

Ah, but there might be someone who will fit that song perfectly.

Very true.  

[Sivirs]

Casting aside the potential ethical issues involved, if a spell were subtle enough and the ticket cost affordable, you could probably go to a concert of the group in question, wait for the proper song, and cast during the performance, drawing on the gathered energy of an enthralled audience to serve your needs.

I've been to some concerts that sure as hell felt like group rituals, and one with an opening act so long and agonizing (3 hours long, baby) it felt like ritual scourging. stare  

[TeaDidikai]

Sivirs

Casting aside the potential ethical issues involved, if a spell were subtle enough and the ticket cost affordable, you could probably go to a concert of the group in question, wait for the proper song, and cast during the performance, drawing on the gathered energy of an enthralled audience to serve your needs.

I've been to some concerts that sure as hell felt like group rituals, and one with an opening act so long and agonizing (3 hours long, baby) it felt like ritual scourging. stare

I don't know what I didn't think of this before, but a dear friend of mine used a German Band's song to bed the lead singer of the band. Don't really remember any of the details, but it was interesting to say the least.  

[TheDisreputableDog]

Sivirs

missmagpie

Other thoughts I've had on the subject: It occured to me in the shower today (ah the revelations one has in the shower) that the song "Under my Thumb" by the Rolling Stones could be used as an excellent domination spell/song.

Unto Ashes' "Serve Me" comes to mind, and it's gender-neutral and from the POV of the singer (or caster, in this case). 3nodding

I've got a good submission one: "Misery & Happiness" by Kenny Edwards, although it's sung for/to a woman if that's an issue.  

[TeaDidikai]

I think it is important to note that even with songs and music from the last hundred years or so- the rythem, and tone of the song is still important to the nature of the magic.

It does beg the question though- which would be more important, the tone of the song or the lyrics?  

[Sivirs]

TeaDidikai

It does beg the question though- which would be more important, the tone of the song or the lyrics?

I take both into account, but when it comes down to the line, I rank tone over lyrics. If it doesn't feel right, all the appropriate lyrics in the world won't help. If it feels perfect, the song coud be about the wonders of peanuts for all I care, I'll make it work.  

[TeaDidikai]

Sivirs

TeaDidikai

It does beg the question though- which would be more important, the tone of the song or the lyrics?

I take both into account, but when it comes down to the line, I rank tone over lyrics. If it doesn't feel right, all the appropriate lyrics in the world won't help. If it feels perfect, the song coud be about the wonders of peanuts for all I care, I'll make it work.

See- I'm a 180 degrees on that.

Lyrics become an incantation. My mood can shift- I can approch different moods in different frames of mind, but if the lyrics I will sing are not right- then I'm "screwed".  

[TheDisreputableDog]

TeaDidikai

I think it is important to note that even with songs and music from the last hundred years or so- the rythem, and tone of the song is still important to the nature of the magic.

It does beg the question though- which would be more important, the tone of the song or the lyrics?

For me, I'm not sure. In general, if the lyrics are appropriate to something but the music doesn't move me, I can't get into the song. Some of Dar Williams' songs get me that way; her lyrics can be superb but there's usually something about the music that doesn't quite hit me between the eyes in the same way. Conversely, if the rhythm and tone are significant enough, I lose the lyrics completely. I never can figure out what Loreena McKennitt is singing about, but the music says "Stand up and listen." Sometimes when I listen to songs in languages besides English that I either don't speak or don't know well enough to translate as I'm listening, the sound is more important than what the song is actually about.

Which, I suppose, brings up a related question--if the song is in a language with which you don't have the proficiency to keep the literal meaning in your head while listening, does the original meaning of the song still have weight?  

[Sivirs]

TeaDidikai

Lyrics become an incantation. My mood can shift- I can approch different moods in different frames of mind, but if the lyrics I will sing are not right- then I'm "screwed".

I go the other way around - if I sing lyrics long enough, there's no longer any intent in them for me, only the act of singing them - as they become memorized, they're not lyrics anymore, they're just letters put together. Kind of like if you speak/write a word enough times in a row it eventually stops making sense for a while. Then whatever intent I want goes into them instead.

So lyrics I can make my way around a lot more easily than I can make my way around a song sounding off or inappropriate for a ritual, but that may be an individual strengths and weaknesses thing, where some people have a more difficult time getting around the lyrics.

Songs in foreign languages help with that - if I don't exactly know what they're saying to begin with, it's just a matter of syllables to focus the action.  

[Lotus Poem]

My family is incredibly musically focused and all of our get togethers have involved singing and dancing to some degree. I have found that even in my own small family we find that an appropriate song or dance can enhance the experience hugely. My daughter is quite the dancer (she is only 3) but for us it's a wonderful way for the three of us to connect during a sabbat or ritual. My husband loves to hear me sing without any musical accompanyment, he insists on it on a regular basis even when I'm just doing laundry or finishing homework smile

This is such a fascinating topic! smile  

[Pelta]

Singing and lyrics aren't everything. All of the music that has effected me the most in my life has been of the classical genre. Glenn Gould playing the JS Bach Goldberg Variations makes me cry nearly every time I listen to it. Not because it's sad, but because it's so indescribably beautiful. I've had similar experiences in concert halls where the music and passion within it so just so moving it entirely transports you. I heard Alfred Brendel play here once and was totally entranced. Looking through the hall and seeing every single person there entirely focused and enchanted by his music, looking at Brendel and seeing the immense...something... that flowed out of him, proved to me more than anything else the untapped power that music can have. Of course, he's one of the most skilled pianists in the world, and you don't get that far unless you've got that extra ~something~ and know how to use it. But what is it? And is it possible that all music is inherently magical?

I disagree with Tea about the importance of lyrics. If you're using a song, it would be good to check that they're in keeping with your will. But the sound of the piece is much more important. Would you use a song for happiness that sounded like a dirge but had happy lyrics? Or a song that sounded jovial but had sad lyrics? Of the two the latter would be my choice, if I had to. But why would you need words at all? Music can mean a lot more when it doesn't have any, simply because music can describe things that languages don't have words for.  

[Pelta]

TeaDidikai

missmagpie

I'll get going on that for you. I won't be able to teach you anything about the psaltery (strings are not my forte), but I can try to teach you the basics of notation and music theory. It might take a while for me to put it together, but I'll see what I can do mrgreen .

You're so awesome. In fact- perhaps you could put it in here and explain some of the concepts in terms of their magical meaning?

I'll see what I can do. It will probably end up being rather long though... That said, I should probably start on it first sweatdrop .

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True, but if you had pretty altar tools like chalices and knives and such, you wouldn't use them to eat your dinner.

Actually, my tradition does. There's a pragmatic aspect to my faith that isn't part of mainstream neo-paganism on the whole.

Then your tradition seems much more sensible than many I've studied.

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If I wanted to go back to just listening to the song again like I usually would, it would be somewhat similar to using an athame to cut steak at dinner. You get my drift?

Not if it is grounded out afterwards. Does the use of computer techno-magic make it so you can't talk on Gaia on the same computer anymore?

Point taken. I was sort of looking at it from the Ceremonial Magician "Tools are sacred" point of view. Just a thought though, how would you ground out a song?

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I'm currently kicking around the use of "Haven't Seen You Lately" to reclaim debts owed by ex-lovers, "Blue" as an invocation of universal awareness, and "Waiting Wishing" as a love spell for someone who is only semi-aware of the ebb and flow of magic.

BNL's "If I had a Million Dollars" for properity magic would be a great one.

Edit: Oh! Luck be a Lady by ol' Blue Eyes for gambling magic!

I think this could possibly turn in to a thread discussion of favorite songs xd ! Nothing wrong with that though. It's all for a good purpose. mrgreen

Sivirs: Your thought about using the energy at concerts was interesting. Ethics aside, the combined energy of hundreds of people with the music as a common focus could have some fantastic effects. Perhaps a more practical (and cheaper, if you factor in concert ticket costs) way would be to have a coven-type situation with a musician or group of performers playing a prepared piece chosen for the occasion, with the audience dancing/interacting with/singing the music. The combined energy, as well as the interplay between musician and listener could have some interesting effects when set to a goal. Not quite the same as hundreds of frenzied moshers, but possibly a little more practical...