Grounding and Centering

[kage no neko]

Well I've only actually felt "grounded" once before. Nothing else I had tried really felt like it worked, and the energy just had to slowly dissipate on it's own.
I don't know if eating actually "grounds" me or not, but it makes that rush feeling go away. But I have low blood sugar, so it might simply be due to that, that the food worked.

I.. still have no clue how to center. But I don't do things that often that'd require centering, so I'm okay. smile  

[Bastemhet]

Fiddlers Green

To wit, my post was generalized in response to the thread topic.

Bastemhet

I should specify that I haven't done any magical workings in a long time, and I'm not trying to learn this for magical workings. Rather I am flexing my own ability to manage my own energy. I am introverted so I don't handle high energy situations too well. There are times when I get overstimulated and need to find a way to calm myself down and also shield, besides the basic mundane things of going to another room, eating, drinking water, pacing myself as far as planning activities goes, etc. I think being able to at least listen to my own body and see how I'm doing energy-wise is something I need to learn, so I don't plan on stopping. I don't see how I can refine my control without experimenting. Right? smile

So long as the experiments take place in a controlled environ to minimize collateral damage.

What would a controlled environ look like?

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Well, if you see the Earth as a deity, think of Vis flows as the veins and arteries, with Vis being the very lifeblood. Just as veins and arteries carry different kinds of blood, and passage through capillaries is important, the same can be said for the Vis flows of the world.

My gods don't have human bodies as their natural state. Appearing with a human form is but one of the manifestations of their "power." Other than that, they are said to have bodies made of gold and hair of lapis lazuli, and in other texts they're described as a bright light that no human eye can gaze upon without being burned. I don't really see how that translates to viz.

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Also, on a religious note, does you Earth Deity like having the mystical equivalent of coal slurry water dumped into it?

For one thing, I don't know if he would consider extra energy coal slurry. For another, I have no way of figuring how he'd react to my excess energy from checking texts alone since there is no equivalent of energetic working comparable to what I'm considering attempting. On the one hand there are purity issues when considering something akin to Saq. On the other hand, I have seen no purity proscriptions in regards to the gods and godesses who personify some of the things that make up the natural environment. If I had to guess, the Kemetians probably would have seen walking upon the earth pure at all times as near impossible to accomplish, and probably would have seen regular offerings to restore any Ma'at as a good thing. Furthermore my giving up of any personal power through excess energy to feed it to the gods might actually be considered an appreciated gift.

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I knew I had a response there, on page 11 and 12.
Tea has a fairly user friendly version there, and the admonition to always learn to internally before mucking about externally I greatly support.

Learning to internally regulate energy is the reason I'm asking about these practices. I didn't see them as exclusive to parts of magical or ritual practice.  

[Bastemhet]

Deoridhe

I grounded for a long time in HS because That's Just What You Did (tm); ended up yanking up what had become cable cords in college, for various reasons, and they've mostly faded now as a concept.

If I have an excess of energy, or in between clients when I can, I put my hands under running water. Still water will work in a pinch, but running is always better. When I can, I go down to the sea, as well.

What do you mean by cable cords?

I think the running water is a good idea, especially if I can wash with natron. However since this might not always be available to me I am trying to think of things to do on the spot. Thanks for the suggestion.  

[Fiddlers Green]

Brass Bell Doll

I thank you for the explanation, it helped me understand where you are coming from.

I am not sure that it applies to what other people speak of, and I can state that it does not apply to what I do. I feel there are assumptions- some of which are illustrated by your description of a coal slurry, that do not apply in my situation or that of most others I know. It is possible that Vis shares surface characteristics, but differ in essence. It is also possible that the manner it is applied differs- I really couldn't guess.

Vis is also the wind, the momentum of crashing waves.
If it is energy, whether potential or mechanical, it is Vis. We are filled with Vis, as is every natural system, as is any working artificial system. However, what is good in one system is not good in another, and the after product of a process may not be good for the environs around it. Then again, the after product may in fact enrich it's surroundings.
If you know what your situation is not, then pray tell, where do you derive the energy for what you do?

Bastemhet

What would a controlled environ look like?

Depends on what features are being controlled. Quarantined may be a better term.
It would bear conceptual similarities to any other laboratory. In so much that the processes therein would have minimized connection and interaction with anything external.

Bastemhet

My gods don't have human bodies as their natural state. Appearing with a human form is but one of the manifestations of their "power." Other than that, they are said to have bodies made of gold and hair of lapis lazuli, and in other texts they're described as a bright light that no human eye can gaze upon without being burned. I don't really see how that translates to viz.

Gold can tarnish and be alloyed. Light can be refracted and bent. Stones can be shattered. The molecular forces that hold atoms together is another expression of Vis. Radiation is Vis. Gravity drawing us towards the world is Vis.

Bastemhet

For one thing, I don't know if he would consider extra energy coal slurry. For another, I have no way of figuring how he'd react to my excess energy from checking texts alone since there is no equivalent of energetic working comparable to what I'm considering attempting. On the one hand there are purity issues when considering something akin to Saq. On the other hand, I have seen no purity proscriptions in regards to the gods and godesses who personify some of the things that make up the natural environment. If I had to guess, the Kemetians probably would have seen walking upon the earth pure at all times as near impossible to accomplish, and probably would have seen regular offerings to restore any Ma'at as a good thing. Furthermore my giving up of any personal power through excess energy to feed it to the gods might actually be considered an appreciated gift.

A gift formed of table scraps?
That aside, you have queried your deities directly regarding their position on this? I find that to be the best way to divine their reactions, if already delivered revelation does not cover a point of inquiry.
My comparison to a coal slurry was perhaps too noxious, however, when one is engaged in experimentation, how does one know what their left overs will be, or what they will do? It was a bad case scenario to be sure, however, when engaged in largely unregulated and poorly understood (or poorly publicized) endeavors, I admonish others to er on the side of caution.

Bastemhet

Learning to internally regulate energy is the reason I'm asking about these practices. I didn't see them as exclusive to parts of magical or ritual practice.

Now, here is the rub. Without proper quarantine, how can our energies be entirely internal? Inhale, exhale. Your energies are carried on the wind. Your cells are constantly growing, and dying and falling off. Diseases evolve inside a person, and then spread out from there. We are not, by nature, completely discrete entities. That is why I advise caution, to minimize the risk of incidental problems.  

[Bastemhet]

Fiddlers Green

Bastemhet

My gods don't have human bodies as their natural state. Appearing with a human form is but one of the manifestations of their "power." Other than that, they are said to have bodies made of gold and hair of lapis lazuli, and in other texts they're described as a bright light that no human eye can gaze upon without being burned. I don't really see how that translates to viz.

Gold can tarnish and be alloyed. Light can be refracted and bent. Stones can be shattered. The molecular forces that hold atoms together is another expression of Vis. Radiation is Vis. Gravity drawing us towards the world is Vis.

I think you might be missing the point. These are all forms they choose to take on for themselves when they deem it convenient. They are not beholden to the same laws that nature itself in this material world is under. If you were familiar with the mythology (and since you are not I will share it with you) you would know the gods are basically indestructible. Set has been killed many times only to come back again. Body parts have been hidden or destroyed only to be replaced. Aset at one point was walking around beheaded before she replaced her head with a cow's head for the time being. I appreciate your concern but something so paltry as extending some of my energy is not enough to destroy my gods.

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A gift formed of table scraps?

Yes. We are happy to make use of the offerings that the gods cannot physically consume. There is high value placed on never wasting anything. A gift of energy that I am not using I do not see as an affront but an offering of vital energy that can in turn sustain the gods in a reciprocal offering.

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That aside, you have queried your deities directly regarding their position on this? I find that to be the best way to divine their reactions, if already delivered revelation does not cover a point of inquiry.

I agree. I intend to take it up with them.

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My comparison to a coal slurry was perhaps too noxious, however, when one is engaged in experimentation, how does one know what their left overs will be, or what they will do? It was a bad case scenario to be sure, however, when engaged in largely unregulated and poorly understood (or poorly publicized) endeavors, I admonish others to er on the side of caution.

Your advice can only go so far. In the end the way you find out is by doing it. I am prepared to be beholden to my gods as they see fit.

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Now, here is the rub. Without proper quarantine, how can our energies be entirely internal? Inhale, exhale. Your energies are carried on the wind. Your cells are constantly growing, and dying and falling off. Diseases evolve inside a person, and then spread out from there. We are not, by nature, completely discrete entities. That is why I advise caution, to minimize the risk of incidental problems.

Your answer of "it depends" above does not exactly clear up what must be controlled except that whatever it is I must be careful about doing it. I welcome you to be more specific and assure you that I am being cautious. I have clearly thought about it and am not against learning other perspectives.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

Fiddlers Green

Vis is also the wind, the momentum of crashing waves.
If it is energy, whether potential or mechanical, it is Vis. We are filled with Vis, as is every natural system, as is any working artificial system. However, what is good in one system is not good in another, and the after product of a process may not be good for the environs around it. Then again, the after product may in fact enrich it's surroundings.
If you know what your situation is not, then pray tell, where do you derive the energy for what you do?

Most of the energy in my life is derived from food. I know this may sound sarcastic, but I assure you, I am sincere.

I also feel that some of the claims about energy being good in one system verses another is flawed. Energy is energy, while it is possible that byproducts may be bad, or that there could be a deficit or excess, it isn't the same as the energy itself as being bad, especially if Vis is Vis no matter if it is a product of organic metabolism or the motion of the moon drawing the tides.  

[Fiddlers Green]

Bastemhet

I think you might be missing the point. These are all forms they choose to take on for themselves when they deem it convenient. They are not beholden to the same laws that nature itself in this material world is under. If you were familiar with the mythology (and since you are not I will share it with you) you would know the gods are basically indestructible. Set has been killed many times only to come back again. Body parts have been hidden or destroyed only to be replaced. Aset at one point was walking around beheaded before she replaced her head with a cow's head for the time being. I appreciate your concern but something so paltry as extending some of my energy is not enough to destroy my gods.

Destroy, no. Inconvenience or otherwise discomfort on the other hand....

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Yes. We are happy to make use of the offerings that the gods cannot physically consume. There is high value placed on never wasting anything. A gift of energy that I am not using I do not see as an affront but an offering of vital energy that can in turn sustain the gods in a reciprocal offering.

~

I agree. I intend to take it up with them.

Completely fair.

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Your advice can only go so far. In the end the way you find out is by doing it. I am prepared to be beholden to my gods as they see fit.

But are you prepared to be beholden to anything else your experiments may offend or harm?

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Your answer of "it depends" above does not exactly clear up what must be controlled except that whatever it is I must be careful about doing it. I welcome you to be more specific and assure you that I am being cautious. I have clearly thought about it and am not against learning other perspectives.

The counter measures taken to control a fire are not the counter measures to control a flood. Without knowing the absolute specifics of what you are doing, and with the specifics of what, I cannot design correct safe guards. The only useful generalization is to look at what you are experimenting with, and then make sure you seal the environ so that it cannot enter or leave, or allow ripple effects outward save in the most directed or desired fashion.

Brass Bell Doll

Most of the energy in my life is derived from food. I know this may sound sarcastic, but I assure you, I am sincere.

I don't doubt it. The processes of digestion are Vis conversion.

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I also feel that some of the claims about energy being good in one system verses another is flawed. Energy is energy, while it is possible that byproducts may be bad, or that there could be a deficit or excess, it isn't the same as the energy itself as being bad, especially if Vis is Vis no matter if it is a product of organic metabolism or the motion of the moon drawing the tides.

Ice Cream is Ice Cream, regardless of whether it is Chocolate or Vanilla, yet one might be allergic to one, while the other is just fine.
Electrocution comes to mind as a valid example of energy being send thru a system that was not meant to hold it.
The Vis itself is not bad, however, it may be bad for the system it is entering, depending upon it's circumstances when entering that system.
My concern is with the general lack of awareness/understanding and it's replacement with assumption that may accompany endeavors. A solution, experimentation with first principles, is very informative, within the limits of our immediate perceptions, however, there may be ramifications far beyond initial kenning. Thus I always admonish for caution, as at times it seems no other voices do.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

Fiddlers Green

Ice Cream is Ice Cream, regardless of whether it is Chocolate or Vanilla, yet one might be allergic to one, while the other is just fine.

I feel that this is an apt analogy, but not for the conclusion it suggests at first glance.

Ice cream is ice cream because it describes a process- the combination of a custard, flavoring and a freezing process. But chocolate and vanilla are different because they are chemically different, not because they are ice cream flavors. If Vis is Vis, Vis would then be the formation of the frozen custard. Byproducts and other extras may be flavors.

Fiddlers Green

Electrocution comes to mind as a valid example of energy being send thru a system that was not meant to hold it.

Electrocution is what happens when an excess travels through someone, energy- electricity is flowing through us all the time. Likewise, electrocution takes place when someone is hit with the paddles during a code blue.

The energy is merely energy. How much is the issue.

Fiddlers Green

The Vis itself is not bad, however, it may be bad for the system it is entering, depending upon it's circumstances when entering that system.
My concern is with the general lack of awareness/understanding and it's replacement with assumption that may accompany endeavors. A solution, experimentation with first principles, is very informative, within the limits of our immediate perceptions, however, there may be ramifications far beyond initial kenning. Thus I always admonish for caution, as at times it seems no other voices do.

I feel this is fair, but when people are seeking support and help, offering admonishment without constructive alternatives seems counterproductive, and likely frustrating for a person who is already struggling. Perhaps it would help if the caution was offered along side suggestions for how they may accomplish their goal safely?  

[Bastemhet]

Fiddlers Green

Quote:

Your advice can only go so far. In the end the way you find out is by doing it. I am prepared to be beholden to my gods as they see fit.

But are you prepared to be beholden to anything else your experiments may offend or harm?

If there are any other entities that may be offended or somehow harmed by my communing with my gods, then they can take it up with the gods in question. I am not beholden to any entity that I have not dialogued with and sworn my allegiance to.

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The counter measures taken to control a fire are not the counter measures to control a flood. Without knowing the absolute specifics of what you are doing, and with the specifics of what, I cannot design correct safe guards. The only useful generalization is to look at what you are experimenting with, and then make sure you seal the environ so that it cannot enter or leave, or allow ripple effects outward save in the most directed or desired fashion.

What counter measures would you recommend for the process described in Tea's thread?  

[Deoridhe]

Bastemhet

Deoridhe

I grounded for a long time in HS because That's Just What You Did (tm); ended up yanking up what had become cable cords in college, for various reasons, and they've mostly faded now as a concept.

If I have an excess of energy, or in between clients when I can, I put my hands under running water. Still water will work in a pinch, but running is always better. When I can, I go down to the sea, as well.

What do you mean by cable cords?

I think the running water is a good idea, especially if I can wash with natron. However since this might not always be available to me I am trying to think of things to do on the spot. Thanks for the suggestion.

I mean wide, large, heavy cords, like the ones used for cables for bridges. That's the closest description I can give to how they "felt".

A Muslim I met carried water for his ablutions in his trunk. I found the practice charming.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

I was thinking a great deal about grounding and the earth over the last few days and I hope to share some of those thoughts for further discussion.

I wish to make certain before I do that my musings are not to be mistaken for either a scientific explanation of mystical experiences, nor are they a justification for unscrupulous people to use in case hazardous practices go awry.

I have no reference to support this notion, but I suspect the term "grounding" came into use as a metaphor that changed into a verb. (I love modern language- the notion that a word like "google" could be a verb, noun and an adjective today when it wasn't even conceptualized in the 80's makes me giddy!)

Like any good metaphor, it removes the comparison to make a stronger image- and just as electricity is grounded, I am sure that the occultists of the late beginnings of the New Age had enough grasp of this to see it's potential.

Perhaps some of this has become too literal, but in the off chance it has not- a couple important things come to mind. First of which is that energy cannot be destroyed.
Second of which, electricity is spoken of in terms of amps and volts. Contrary to popular folk wisdom, both voltage and amperage is dangerous. They are linked. As one rises, so does the other.

Having said that, what makes electrical current dangerous depends on three factors- the amount of the energy, how long the exposure is and lastly, the path the energy takes.

The last two seem fairly straight forward to me. If the energy is shunt across vital mechanisms that cannot handle it, there is failure. If the use of something within the circuit lasts too long, there is failure.

A classic lightbulb is basically a piece of metal in a glass and metal container, usually filled with a specific gas. Even the best bulb will burn out over time because the release of the energy is imperfect- it forms both heat and light and that heat has an effect on the metal which leads to failure. And this is across a vital mechanism designed to create light.

The electric load across a circuit can be too much for it to handle. I feel it is likely most of us in our lifetime has switched on a light only to hear a pop and see the light go dark.

What does this have to do with "grounding"? Well, the spiritual practice of letting go of some energy (often transferring it into the earth because of the aforementioned metaphor) becomes important when we consider the amount of energy issue. If the term comes from observation of electrical circuits, then the reason grounding takes place is because the resistance of the ground itself is high enough to handle the load safely. It also assumes there is no principle vital mechanism that would be harmed by the load traveling through a specific path. This may take the form of an occasional discharge with a higher amount of energy, or it may be a much lower amount of energy released over a long period of time.

I feel this suggests that the most basic forms of these exercises are relatively safe in and of themselves; that any measure of the energy itself being released is likely not going to be significant enough to damage the environment.

One of the points I was wondering was what would happen if a person passed away after they had accumulated a significant amount of energy- falling over dead in the middle of ritual as it were. Eventually all the energy that had been contained would be released or transformed.

I feel while there could be an impact on the environment, the word impact itself doesn't always mean "negative impact". My personal experiences with certain places where this kind of thing has occurred give me reason to believe it is a mutual entanglement.  

[Fiddlers Green]

I think we're fairly good so far on the rest.

Brass Bell Doll

I feel this is fair, but when people are seeking support and help, offering admonishment without constructive alternatives seems counterproductive, and likely frustrating for a person who is already struggling. Perhaps it would help if the caution was offered along side suggestions for how they may accomplish their goal safely?

My strongest suggestion is to find a more experienced person of a responsible slant to work with. I would offer some assistance, but remote lab work is at best of limited effectiveness. As far as support goes, I generally don't support this, especially in the context of largely IRAB and intuitive practice. Also, productivity is relative. My concerns, horribly enough, are far less for the practitioner, and more for the world, inclusive of people, around them. Also, it is worth noting, I am far more tolerant of this sort of thing than the majority of my society. If my reactions seem discouraging, take them as the kiddy-pool version of what you may or may not encounter in person. this is, in my perspective, similar to gun control. While I will personal discourage people from ownership of many personal weapon's grade firearms, I will equally oppose legislation that would take them away. I'm not saying don't, just saying be very very cautious.

Bastemhet

If there are any other entities that may be offended or somehow harmed by my communing with my gods, then they can take it up with the gods in question. I am not beholden to any entity that I have not dialogued with and sworn my allegiance to.

I use the term "entity" inclusive of humans, animals, and other more ephemeral beings. Does this clarification affect your position?

Bastemhet

What counter measures would you recommend for the process described in Tea's thread?

Too general.
I see what one is doing, but not what one is doing it with. The process is not enough, I need the full specifics. If the Vis taken in question is completely internal, that isn't specific enough either, I would need to know the person (diet, environment they live in, lineage, ect...) to give specifics.


In summation, please note my goal is to encourage awareness of what one is actually doing and it's potential side effects. Personal experience has lead me to several offensive assumptions.
Apologies if they are unwarranted.
However, I would rather offend a person than have remained silent before they accidentally created a black hole. The comparison is extreme, however, it is a matter I treat with great gravity, and I find the general laissez-faire and cavalier voices as offensive as a nuclear weapons sale's person at the Hiroshima Peace Memorial.  

[Bastemhet]

Fiddlers Green

Bastemhet

If there are any other entities that may be offended or somehow harmed by my communing with my gods, then they can take it up with the gods in question. I am not beholden to any entity that I have not dialogued with and sworn my allegiance to.

I use the term "entity" inclusive of humans, animals, and other more ephemeral beings. Does this clarification affect your position?

I think it depends. It seems you may be trying to fit my religion's myth structure to your Vis structure. Vis and divine power are not correlated or interchangeable terms. What I will be dealing with is the divine power of the gods. Divine power is not latent in all of reality. The divine beings are distinct entities from the physical environment, including the earth god Geb and the sky goddess Nut. In what way would this harm humans and animals?

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Bastemhet

What counter measures would you recommend for the process described in Tea's thread?

Too general.
I see what one is doing, but not what one is doing it with. The process is not enough, I need the full specifics. If the Vis taken in question is completely internal, that isn't specific enough either, I would need to know the person (diet, environment they live in, lineage, ect...) to give specifics.

Again, I am not dealing with Vis but divine power as well as internal energy.

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In summation, please note my goal is to encourage awareness of what one is actually doing and it's potential side effects. Personal experience has lead me to several offensive assumptions.
Apologies if they are unwarranted.
However, I would rather offend a person than have remained silent before they accidentally created a black hole. The comparison is extreme, however, it is a matter I treat with great gravity, and I find the general laissez-faire and cavalier voices as offensive as a nuclear weapons sale's person at the Hiroshima Peace Memorial.

I understand your concern. But I don't think it's fair of you to assume that your understanding of energy is universally applicable.  

[Arden Deschain]

I started reading this thread as a source of information about grounding and centering, and I believe it's become, as Bastemhet suggested, an attempt by Fiddlers Green to reconcile others beliefs with their own. As a relatively new outsider (to the thread that is), this was slightly threatening to me. Please don't eat me.

I'm not well versed in grounding/centering. I just know that when I have excess energy, perhaps from some surge of emotion, or from some extra situation, i find that if i retreat into my mind, rest so that there are no blocks to energy flowing through me, palms facing upward (or, if I'm standing as sometimes happens before a class or interview, simply facing out). then i go somewhere in my mind that i can hold without any effort. For me, it's a spot on the Boardwalk in santa cruz. there, I see myself, clothed perhaps with far too much. these things, clothing, jewelry, etc, represent all the excess energy. Carefully, deliberately, i remove these things in my mind, and walk toward the sand. This sounds easier than it is! sometimes it can be very difficult to remove everything, and sometimes, if my mind drifts, things will snap back on.
Once everything is removed, i can step onto the beach, and go through a simple tai chi form, but someone could do whatever they like. again, the movements must be controlled, sometimes my mind-self wants to go through them faster, but it doesn't work if I let it just go.
Once i finish this though, I feel great. It's meditating, but I think if the idea is to get rid of excess energy, that's how I do it.  

[Bastemhet]

Arden Deschain

I started reading this thread as a source of information about grounding and centering, and I believe it's become, as Bastemhet suggested, an attempt by Fiddlers Green to reconcile others beliefs with their own. As a relatively new outsider (to the thread that is), this was slightly threatening to me. Please don't eat me.

I'm not well versed in grounding/centering. I just know that when I have excess energy, perhaps from some surge of emotion, or from some extra situation, i find that if i retreat into my mind, rest so that there are no blocks to energy flowing through me, palms facing upward (or, if I'm standing as sometimes happens before a class or interview, simply facing out). then i go somewhere in my mind that i can hold without any effort. For me, it's a spot on the Boardwalk in santa cruz. there, I see myself, clothed perhaps with far too much. these things, clothing, jewelry, etc, represent all the excess energy. Carefully, deliberately, i remove these things in my mind, and walk toward the sand. This sounds easier than it is! sometimes it can be very difficult to remove everything, and sometimes, if my mind drifts, things will snap back on.
Once everything is removed, i can step onto the beach, and go through a simple tai chi form, but someone could do whatever they like. again, the movements must be controlled, sometimes my mind-self wants to go through them faster, but it doesn't work if I let it just go.
Once i finish this though, I feel great. It's meditating, but I think if the idea is to get rid of excess energy, that's how I do it.

Thanks for the suggestion! That actually doesn't seem like a bad idea. I'll have to replace the ocean imagery though...I hate beaches. xp