Nothing isn't Pagan anymore.

[maenad nuri]

WebenBanu

Nuri

You want to raise the public profile of paganism? Let it be known we will accept all that want to use their intellect, their passion and strengths and seek their own path within it. Paganism, as a term, should be our uniter.

Actually, I'd argue that that's a good way to ruin Paganism's public image- not to mention tearing the movement itself to shreds.^_^' That's exactly what NeoWicca did: "we accept everyone! Create your own religion! heart " And by dissolving all definitive boundaries they completely lost their identity, and now many people (in and out of the Pagan movement) have a hard time taking Wicca seriously.

That works when you actually have something that your religion is. NeoWicca would at least have Wicca as its basis. But paganism really doesn't have a basis in anything at this point, and I think that is a strength. It causes us to think diversely and expand ourselves beyond our comfort level.

I don't see as much difference between fiction and mythology, espcially good fiction. While there is a difference between a delusion, using fiction as a source for your spiritual beliefs isn't always delusional.

Namely, theres a difference between Mists of Avalon and Jediism-which both have more mainstream "pagan" ideas at their core, and believing that Sailor Moon is real.

The first group, I'll be wary of since I don't agree with them, but the second I'll just laugh at.  

[Memento Mortalis Es]

Whether or not a religion such as Jediism can be considered part of Paganism depends entirely on how you define Paganism. If you analyze the general structure of Jediism, for example, and it fits with your general structure of Paganism, then it's Pagan. Whether or not the religion is based on fiction is irrelevant.

Quote:

Example:

Main religion

Almost always has components A and B
Normally has components C and D
Sometimes has components E and F

Possible subreligion
Has components A, B, D, and F

I'd say it's a fit.  

[LadyEladrin]

I wouldnt' say that Jedi are pagans. I'd say that the Jedi way is more of a philosophy and way of life than a religious choice or path, even though they venerate the Force and recognize it as some sort of higher power. Belief in a unifying and/or higher power doesn't automatically make you Pagan. For example:

PaganPrideWebsite

A Pagan or NeoPagan is someone who self-identifies as a Pagan, and whose spiritual or religious practice or belief fits into one or more of the following categories:

Honoring, revering, or worshipping a Deity or Deities found in pre-Christian, classical, aboriginal, or tribal mythology;
a
nd/or Practicing religion or spirituality based upon shamanism, shamanic, or magickal practices;

and/or Creating new religion based on past Pagan religions and/or futuristic views of society, community, and/or ecology;

and/or Focusing religious or spiritual attention primarily on the Divine Feminine.

According to the Pagan Pride Day organization, that is what makes a Pagan a Pagan, and that's good enough for thousands of us across the globe.  

[TeaDidikai]

EladrinStarmist

I wouldnt' say that Jedi are pagans. I'd say that the Jedi way is more of a philosophy and way of life than a religious choice or path, even though they venerate the Force and recognize it as some sort of higher power. Belief in a unifying and/or higher power doesn't automatically make you Pagan. For example:

PaganPrideWebsite

A Pagan or NeoPagan is someone who self-identifies as a Pagan, and whose spiritual or religious practice or belief fits into one or more of the following categories:

Honoring, revering, or worshipping a Deity or Deities found in pre-Christian, classical, aboriginal, or tribal mythology;
a
nd/or Practicing religion or spirituality based upon shamanism, shamanic, or magickal practices;

and/or Creating new religion based on past Pagan religions and/or futuristic views of society, community, and/or ecology;

and/or Focusing religious or spiritual attention primarily on the Divine Feminine.

According to the Pagan Pride Day organization, that is what makes a Pagan a Pagan, and that's good enough for thousands of us across the globe.

Heh... Picking and choosing bits may work for eclectics but.... wink  

[Jasta]

sweatdrop

Re-iterating - the Jedi do not consider themselves pagan.
They do not consider themselves a part of the pagan religion.
They do not advertise themselves as being pagan in any way at all.

At the end of the day, it has nothing to do with whether or not pagans here believe the Jedi can be considered pagans - they do not consider themselves pagan, and therefore they're not. They don't affiliate themselves with the pagan paths at all. They consider themselves seperate to all religion - that includes paganism. In fact, the vast majority of them do not consider it a religion at all, but a life philosophy, that some pagans follow, along with christians, buddhists, whatever.

As a btw - there is no "official church" of the Jedi - and the research has been done, regarding copyright infringement - the only way Lucas could sue the Jedi for using his name, is if they attempted to use it for profit. As it is, people have been identifying under the Jedi name for decades now, and not one of them has been sued.  

[LadyEladrin]

Well, I guess that's that then. ^^

As for ppday, it is designed for the eclectics out there AND also as an educational "this is what paganism is" type-day. Tradition/Path followers are always welcome at the events as either guests, speakers or workshop throwers. 3nodding This past year at my event I had people from the grove across the river come by and talk about ADF style druidry. (Down Reagun wink ) Unfortunately, there aren't many pagans in my area. cry  

[Tsuzuki]

Jasta

As a btw - there is no "official church" of the Jedi - and the research has been done, regarding copyright infringement - the only way Lucas could sue the Jedi for using his name, is if they attempted to use it for profit. As it is, people have been identifying under the Jedi name for decades now, and not one of them has been sued.

Trademark infringement, not copyright. And the reason why no one has been sued is because no one is trying to claim the use of the "Jedi" term independent of the Star Wars films. The moment someone tries to do that, the lawsuits will come. Also, if someone tries to make unauthorized Jedi products.  

[TheDisreputableDog]

Son of Axeman

The term is tainted enough, without pictures of pagan symbols on Jedi banners, causing misassociations.

However, the Jedi are not part of paganism, and, as such, have no place advertising themselves as such.

Jedi aren't pagan nor do they advertise themselves as such, as Jasta says. The Jedi banners I've seen in signatures do have a pentacle in them, but they also have a catgirl in them. I don't see furries or catgirls up in arms about the Jedi. stare Neither graphic has anything to do with them. They don't even want to be pagan--let them not be pagan.  

[TeaDidikai]

EladrinStarmist

Well, I guess that's that then. ^^

Unless- you know, Jasta doesn't speak for all of the Jedi movement.

(Pst... there is an offical Jedi Church in England)

And as lovely as all this "Self Identifying" stuff is- there is the fact that Pagan isn't an inclusive term, but an exclusive term. Historically it was not a title claimed, but a title issued not to mean "All of us" but to mean "All of them"- being outside of Christendom.  

[Tsuzuki]

TeaDidikai

(Pst... there is an offical Jedi Church in England)

I don't know how British trademark law works.  

[Jasta]

Quote:

(Pst... there is an offical Jedi Church in England)

Lol.. well, I've not come across that one, and I live in England... if you want to point me in the direction of a reference there Tea, that'd be cool smile Sorry if I am giving out incoorect info there.

As for the pentacle... I'm the only Jedi I know who has a catgirl and pentacle in my signature, and they're not there cuz of the Jedi thing, they're there because a) my SW Jedi RP character is a catgirl, and b) I consider myself pagan. It's a personal thing - nothing to do with the Jedi...

And no, I don't speak for all the Jedi, lol.... But seriously, you can ask any of them, "Is the Jedi movement pagan?" - 99.9999% of the time I'd be willing to bet they'll say, "no"...  

[LadyEladrin]

It's possible to be pagan and jedi, but jedi doesnt' automatically = Pagan. Like you can be a witch and not necessarily Pagan. (Using the ppday exclusive term of Pagan). You can be a witch or a magician and not be Pagan. A lot of people are going ot assume that you're Pagan, but you can just politely tell them that you're not.

Honestly, the ppday way of describing Pagan is the best one I've seen. Any thoughts?  

[Son of Axeman]

AvalonAuggie

I've got a question for you, SoA: Would your issue with Jediism calling itself Paganism extend to other fiction-based religions that have a closer ideological tie to common Pagan religions? for example, I know there's some sort of tradition out there based on the Mists of Avalon series, do you also challenge their legiimacy as a Pagan religion?

Absolutely. A "religion" that acts as an extension of things that we have immediate proof that are fiction, the Mists of Avalon, for instance, should not be associated with paganism in any way/shape/form.

The Bible, the Qu'ran, Hermetic, Nordic, etc. Mythologies are excempt to this, considering that, although there is no evidence that they are real, there is no evidence that they are fiction, either. With Star Wars, or the Mists of Avalon, there is concrete, irrefutable proof that they are, indeed, fiction.

And, the very fact that there is a discussion of whether or not Jediism is pagan or not in THIS little community means that it has to be an issue for the rest of the pagan community, as a whole (I use that term loosely).  

[TheDisreputableDog]

Jasta

As for the pentacle... I'm the only Jedi I know who has a catgirl and pentacle in my signature, and they're not there cuz of the Jedi thing, they're there because a) my SW Jedi RP character is a catgirl, and b) I consider myself pagan. It's a personal thing - nothing to do with the Jedi...

Ohhh. lol I think I superimposed your signature on some other Jedi signature I saw in this guild, or maybe somewhere else or...um...why don't we just ignore what I said about it. gonk