On the Quality and Intention of Words

[Ishtar Shakti]

I'm fairly sure I agree with your larger conjecture. On an energetic level intent is much more important then the actual wording. I find this much in spell craft where in the meaning of the word, no matter what actual word I use, is definitely more important. I have found that as long as I know what I mean whatever symbols I use are pretty much irrelevant.

When I hear people speak sometimes, whether they use politically correct terminology or not, the hatred or malice in their words can still be felt. "Proper terminology" only works on one level and thats on the surface level. The hope is though that the next generation and the generations after that through subtle suggestion and a constant presence will learn differently then their predecessors.

Or well I think thats the only real reason for politically correct speech and that is why when I am around children I watch what I say closely even if I don't Mean things the way they sound. Its just best not to expose children to that sort of negative terminology. If they do hear it, providing a contextual basis for your words is definitely of utmost importance. Its just that many times children are listening when you don't expect them to be and thus anything which is in the public domain, for young inexperienced people to see, is generally monitored. Not saying that I don't think children don't have the capacity... just saying its good to be careful. Or well that is the Reasoning behind political correctness...

Whether its effective or not you can argue.  

[Kuroiban]

Ishtar Shakti

I'm fairly sure I agree with your larger conjecture. On an energetic level intent is much more important then the actual wording. I find this much in spell craft where in the meaning of the word, no matter what actual word I use, is definitely more important. I have found that as long as I know what I mean whatever symbols I use are pretty much irrelevant.

I disagree with the underlined section.

I don't think exact intent or exact wording matter a pinch of s**t in terms of being a bigoted b*****d; I think they BOTH have to be correct in unison.

Separately, neither one is effective in any way IMHO.  

[Bastemhet]

Kuroiban

That person in the example may not be saying that N word. However, if that was how he FEELS, chances are that it is still what he MEANS. So we got rid of the word that makes us upset, hurt, angry, uncomfortable, discriminated against...what have you. That MEANING is still there. That intent is still there. The feeling of superiority on behalf of the speaker didn't change.

The only difference is he used a socially acceptable form of expression. To which I say, big deal.

Actually I think that's WORSE in some ways. Politically Correct language makes it easier for bigots and the like to hide their hatred behind a facade of politeness and etiquette. Which would you rather, to be hated honestly or liked dishonestly?

The point is that being freely allowed to use such words perpetuate the idea that bigoted forms of expression are OK when they are not. Besides the obvious reason of not using them so that the group that it others finds it offensive, it is a tool to perpetuate the inequality of discourse where one group has the power to swiftly and effectively derail a conversation/argument and shut down others merely based on their heritage/looks. By not using these words, that ability is taken away. And when you bring up the fact that you don't like those words and why, it also gives you an opportunity to educate someone as to what effect those words have, why it's wrong to use them, and also teach them a little bit about the privilege inherent in even having those words available to freely use in the first place.  

[Kuroiban]

Bastemhet

The point is that being freely allowed to use such words perpetuate the idea that bigoted forms of expression are OK when they are not. Besides the obvious reason of not using them so that the group that it others finds it offensive, it is a tool to perpetuate the inequality of discourse where one group has the power to swiftly and effectively derail a conversation/argument and shut down others merely based on their heritage/looks. By not using these words, that ability is taken away. And when you bring up the fact that you don't like those words and why, it also gives you an opportunity to educate someone as to what effect those words have, why it's wrong to use them, and also teach them a little bit about the privilege inherent in even having those words available to freely use in the first place.

Maybe it's just where I live; I come from an area that is deeply, deeply bigoted and closed-minded. Trying to get the intentions of PC behavior on some of the locals is like trying to use a toothpick to carve granite; the people here are simply set on being closed-minded ******** and they're convinced they're right in every preconception they want to have.

So for me, when the words change, I usually don't see the meaning change, and that's a big deal from where I'm standing. It goes from being an outward expression to an inward expression, and I don't see that really being a productive change.

You do make some good points though. I still can't help but feeling a little bit jaded about the both PC-ness and Intent however; it feels like a pissing contest where the only losers are the ones that the actually concerned parties are fighting for the rights of.  

[Ishtar Shakti]

Kuroiban

Ishtar Shakti

I'm fairly sure I agree with your larger conjecture. On an energetic level intent is much more important then the actual wording. I find this much in spell craft where in the meaning of the word, no matter what actual word I use, is definitely more important. I have found that as long as I know what I mean whatever symbols I use are pretty much irrelevant.

I disagree with the underlined section.

I don't think exact intent or exact wording matter a pinch of s**t in terms of being a bigoted b*****d; I think they BOTH have to be correct in unison.

Separately, neither one is effective in any way IMHO.

Please Read The Bolded section before dissecting my post

I could Say b***h in my spell work in a way that means love.

I have done as much. I could say something completely non-sensical and have it represent pretty much anything. In energy work I have found that the words I use Do Not matter. It only seems to matter if you make it matter so to speak. If it matters to you.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

Ishtar Shakti

I'm fairly sure I agree with your larger conjecture. On an energetic level intent is much more important then the actual wording.

I don't really feel this is true because as previous posts have discussed, the intent does not undo the harm the action causes.

Ishtar Shakti

When I hear people speak sometimes, whether they use politically correct terminology or not, the hatred or malice in their words can still be felt. "Proper terminology" only works on one level and thats on the surface level.

I'm afraid I disagree.

I feel that when we speak of things in ways that effect the surface level, we send out energetic ripples that touch on other things as well. If words are a manifestation of energy, then the repetition of a word can build a pattern which effects the whole.

Ishtar Shakti

Or well I think thats the only real reason for politically correct speech and that is why when I am around children I watch what I say closely even if I don't Mean things the way they sound.

I feel politically correct speech is used to reinforce a foundation.
If we believe in equality, and feel that others deserve to be treated well regardless of how they look, feel or express themselves, then the next step is to develop a way of thinking that honors that and can create change.

I feel words have the power to change how we think and feel, so it is important that we use our words carefully to support our development.

I feel there is an attitude towards Political Correctness that has turned it into a derogatory term while elevating Political Incorrectness as a merit. When I read about it, I often find the ideas centered around the concept to be in favor of individualism and opposed to understandings of censorship.

I feel this is a major part of the problem, that some are so focused on themselves that they cannot put aside their use of a word for the sake of not harming others around them.

Some of the early essays on the subject went to the heart of this. They discussed that we cannot use politically correct terms while holding onto beliefs that place ourselves above others.

I feel that language represents thought and can influence it. It frames how we see the world around us, so it's important to me that the frame reflect my desire to treat others with respect, regardless of how we are different.  

[Bastemhet]

Kuroiban

Bastemhet

The point is that being freely allowed to use such words perpetuate the idea that bigoted forms of expression are OK when they are not. Besides the obvious reason of not using them so that the group that it others finds it offensive, it is a tool to perpetuate the inequality of discourse where one group has the power to swiftly and effectively derail a conversation/argument and shut down others merely based on their heritage/looks. By not using these words, that ability is taken away. And when you bring up the fact that you don't like those words and why, it also gives you an opportunity to educate someone as to what effect those words have, why it's wrong to use them, and also teach them a little bit about the privilege inherent in even having those words available to freely use in the first place.

Maybe it's just where I live; I come from an area that is deeply, deeply bigoted and closed-minded. Trying to get the intentions of PC behavior on some of the locals is like trying to use a toothpick to carve granite; the people here are simply set on being closed-minded ******** and they're convinced they're right in every preconception they want to have.

So for me, when the words change, I usually don't see the meaning change, and that's a big deal from where I'm standing. It goes from being an outward expression to an inward expression, and I don't see that really being a productive change.

You do make some good points though. I still can't help but feeling a little bit jaded about the both PC-ness and Intent however; it feels like a pissing contest where the only losers are the ones that the actually concerned parties are fighting for the rights of.

I totally understand where you're coming from. It can be very frustrating when even if you talk about privilege, othering, and racism, people just can't seem to get it because it's been instilled in them from birth that we are working on a level playing field when we really are not. Using PC language, which means allowing people to self-define rather than use words that make blanket statements about who they are, what their beliefs/attitudes are, and what people of their race are capable/incapable of doing, is one step, however small, in the right direction. It won't solve everything, but it's acknowledging that there is a problem in the first place, and that it's but one way to try and alleviate it.

In the end you can't change everyone's understanding of their world, and that's just what's going to happen. I personally feel that if I do my best to use PC language and be an ally to POC, then I am maintaing Ma'at, i.e. pushing things more toward a just and righteous world, which is keeping in line with my religious values. I can't force others to be good people, but I sure as pancakes can try to be a good person myself.  

[Ishtar Shakti]

On An Energetic Level
Words are a manifestation of energy but the manifestation isn't the sound but the energy we put into it.

If a person says African American it can still feel the same as if a person says Niger

If a person says Niger in a positive way when talking to their friend the feel is completely Different and the energy it releases is completely different. Go pay attention to the energy of linguistics.

The repetition of the word can build up in effect... but the effect is dependent on the energy that the people are using not on the actual word. The word has more of a psychological association affect then an actual energetic one. (though the psychological association affect then creates an energetic affect as people react to the word)

Politically correct speech is used to create a psychological foundation but if a person has a foundation which does not adhere to the "meaning" of the word no matter what words they use it won't change the energetic imprint which is inherent with the speaking of the word. Politically correct speech works on children because they don't have a predisposition.

Aka. They are a blank slate. Due to habituation and contextualization people have inherent inner meanings which they adhere to when they hear certain words.

Depending on context etc. words develop different meanings. I.E. the word Niger has a different meaning when a white person says it then when a black person says it. It has different meanings due to context etc. implied meanings etc. or what we imagine is implied in the meaning.

I could say any "bad word" and have it mean nothing but wholesomeness and respect on an energetic level. Its why usually when I cuss I'm smiling and I'm not upset. We give words meaning not the other way around. A word is just a sound that we formed, its a shape, the deeper context we provide.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

I was thinking more about what I wrote and I wanted to add some things.

I feel we can agree that language reflects, represents and shapes how we think.

We carry language with us as a tool, and part of language is labels.
I often feel intimidated by labels, especially when the labels carry implicate meanings and are applied unconsciously. These unconscious associations build stereotypes which in turn reduce my individuality.

I feel it is everyone's responsibility to examine labels so we can explore in a conscious way, how we view others.

I feel that since language can be used as a tool to create hatred, then it can also be used as a tool to create peace and understanding. I feel it is up to us to begin the process by supporting language that does not harm others.

I feel that intent is important, and that part of that is being intentionally mindful of how we speak of ourselves and others.  

[Ishtar Shakti]

Brass Bell Doll

I was thinking more about what I wrote and I wanted to add some things.

I feel we can agree that language reflects, represents and shapes how we think.

We carry language with us as a tool, and part of language is labels.
I often feel intimidated by labels, especially when the labels carry implicate meanings and are applied unconsciously. These unconscious associations build stereotypes which in turn reduce my individuality.

I feel it is everyone's responsibility to examine labels so we can explore in a conscious way, how we view others.

I feel that since language can be used as a tool to create hatred, then it can also be used as a tool to create peace and understanding. I feel it is up to us to begin the process by supporting language that does not harm others.

I feel that intent is important, and that part of that is being intentionally mindful of how we speak of ourselves and others.

Or you could argue that you should break the negative mental associations that people adhere to certain words.  

[Bastemhet]

Brass Bell Doll

I feel politically correct speech is used to reinforce a foundation.
If we believe in equality, and feel that others deserve to be treated well regardless of how they look, feel or express themselves, then the next step is to develop a way of thinking that honors that and can create change.

I feel words have the power to change how we think and feel, so it is important that we use our words carefully to support our development.

I feel there is an attitude towards Political Correctness that has turned it into a derogatory term while elevating Political Incorrectness as a merit. When I read about it, I often find the ideas centered around the concept to be in favor of individualism and opposed to understandings of censorship.

...

I feel that language represents thought and can influence it. It frames how we see the world around us, so it's important to me that the frame reflect my desire to treat others with respect, regardless of how we are different.

I'm very much agreed on this and think they're good points, especially how language frames how we see the world.

Part of the problem of this individualism is that it assumes all people are automatically considered individuals. Here's an example of how that's bunk: if a white woman has a child out of wedlock with no present father, she's seen as a white woman who has a child out of wedlock with no present father. If you change the same situation to it being a black woman, she ends up being just another example of pathological behavior and a dysfunctional family that is symbolic of social problems in the black community. Case in point? Sarah Palin's daughter's baby-daddy drama.  

[Bastemhet]

Ishtar Shakti

They are a blank slate. Due to habituation and contextualization people have inherent inner meanings which they adhere to when they hear certain words.

I think you have the same problem that you did before, which is that you are ignoring that words have meanings if people agree on the meanings. Your ignorance of a word or disassociation from the meaning does not erase the meanings and effect it has based on its dictionary definition or historical use.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

Ishtar Shakti

On An Energetic Level
Words are a manifestation of energy but the manifestation isn't the sound but the energy we put into it.

If a person says African American it can still feel the same as if a person says Niger

I feel you are correct, but I also feel that the effects of that energy do not begin and end with the syllables.

If a person uses the same intent as the slur, they are at least not compounding the use with the framework that is part of the implicate meaning of the word.

Ishtar Shakti

If a person says Niger in a positive way when talking to their friend the feel is completely Different and the energy it releases is completely different. Go pay attention to the energy of linguistics.

I feel I am paying attention to the energy of linguistics.
But I am paying attention to the far reaching energy, and not that single instance.

In your example, a person can say African American with the same hatred they can impart with slurs, but will that carry with it the fear and pain and suffering of the energetic signature present in the slur itself?

Ishtar Shakti

The repetition of the word can build up in effect... but the effect is dependent on the energy that the people are using not on the actual word. The word has more of a psychological association affect then an actual energetic one.

I am afraid I disagree.

I feel that the word carries with it the energetic signature of the history of the word. My ex-girlfriend had a panic disorder that was brought on by certain words regarding our sexuality. Even when I used the word in an affectionate way, it triggered an attack because of the conditioning surrounding the word.

We were at a bar one night and one of those guys who think that our sexuality is just a phase approached us, and told her to ditch me, once she was with him, she wouldn't be a lesbian for long. His voice was filled with disgust. Yes, his words hurt. But they did not carry the hatred that is associated with other words. She calmly called the bouncer over and informed him we were being harassed.

I understand you feel that the intonation and intention behind a word exists as it is said. I cannot agree because I have seen and felt first hand that this isn't the case.

Ishtar Shakti

Politically correct speech is used to create a psychological foundation but if a person has a foundation which does not adhere to the "meaning" of the word no matter what words they use it won't change the energetic imprint which is inherent with the speaking of the word. Politically correct speech works on children because they don't have a predisposition.

I'm sorry. I don't feel as though I understand what you are saying well enough to comment.

Ishtar Shakti

Aka. They are a blank slate. Due to habituation and contextualization people have inherent inner meanings which they adhere to when they hear certain words.

I feel this is true, but I also feel it isn't as individualistic as your words imply because we do not exist independently of our society.

Ishtar Shakti

Depending on context etc. words develop different meanings. I.E. the word Niger has a different meaning when a white person says it then when a black person says it. It has different meanings due to context etc. implied meanings etc. or what we imagine is implied in the meaning.

I cannot agree.
The example you give only reflects the person speaking the word, and it doesn't reflect the person hearing it and the harm it can cause them.

Ishtar Shakti

I could say any "bad word" and have it mean nothing but wholesomeness and respect on an energetic level.

I feel part of your intent would be such, but not the whole of your intent, since it would still be placing your desire to use a word over the harm it is inflicting upon others.

Ishtar Shakti

Its why usually when I cuss I'm smiling and I'm not upset. We give words meaning not the other way around. A word is just a sound that we formed, its a shape, the deeper context we provide.

I feel that we can provide deeper context personally, but that it doesn't negate the larger context created by our society.

I also feel that to argue for that is dehumanizing to others since it supports the intent of harming others in favor of taking small actions to be considerate of our right to feel safe.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

Ishtar Shakti

Or you could argue that you should break the negative mental associations that people adhere to certain words.

My ex went to therapy for years and still hasn't overcome her panic disorder. She has gotten a lot better, but it is a process. I don't feel that your desire to use a word should be placed over the very real effects it has on her, despite your intention towards her or her intention to overcome the harmful effects of other's actions.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

Bastemhet

I'm very much agreed on this and think they're good points, especially how language frames how we see the world.

Thank you.

Bastemhet

Part of the problem of this individualism is that it assumes all people are automatically considered individuals. Here's an example of how that's bunk: if a white woman has a child out of wedlock with no present father, she's seen as a white woman who has a child out of wedlock with no present father. If you change the same situation to it being a black woman, she ends up being just another example of pathological behavior and a dysfunctional family that is symbolic of social problems in the black community. Case in point? Sarah Palin's daughter's baby-daddy drama.

I'm sorry. I don't feel I quite got this, but I would like to see if I am close.

Are you saying that the pattern of people arguing for individualism and against censorship when it comes to political correctness are thinking that their personal views of how other people think and feel aren't always respected which leads to their intention being lost when it is wrapped in stereotypes?