Pope Benedict attacks [UK] government over Equality Bill

[Priestley]

Semiremis

Matt Pniewski

Semiremis

Good for him, he believes that freedom of religion is being infringed upon (something that needs to be protected) and he's speaking out against it...I take no issue with that.

In the article the Pope is quoted as saying: "Your country is well-known for its firm commitment to equality of opportunity for all members of society.

"Yet, as you have rightly pointed out, the effect of some of the legislation designed to achieve this goal has been to impose unjust limitations on the freedom of religious communities to act in accordance with their beliefs.

Like with what Widdecombe says in the article, the Catholic Church at least in regards to this subject is not trying to influence what non-catholics do and the secular world has no place trying to influence Catholic moral teachings. The Church shouldn't be forced to put into a position of authority those who stand against her teachings, and that's what the objection to the equality bill is all about based on what I've read.


Personally, I'd have to see the details before I could really say what I thought on this but a huge red flag goes up for me when freedom is gained by trampling on other freedom. If it's just the general workforce that's being affected by this then I see no reason for the Church to object.

The Catholic Church, and other religious organizations, feel threatened by Equality. Gay Rights, Women's Rights, Abortion Rights (which i seperate from Women's right for various reason).... Religious organizations have very set opinions on these things, and they think that if the Government takes an opposing stance, they are infringing on THEIR rights.


However, nobody is claiming the Church can't protest Abortion, or the Church can't exclude homosexual priests. They believe simply that the opposing stances are infringing on the rights of Christians. Fact is, there rights to believe what they believe and act on those is not in question.




Pretty much what the Pope is saying is "We want people to be bigots and hate people who are different", something he learned in his past as a Hitler Youth no doubt.

The Catholic Church is worried about being forced to put into positions of some authority those who take stances that go against Church teaching (as stated in the article), your other claims are just supposition.

The reasoning behind this is such that anyone who has sinned, can not or will not stop sinning, in opposition to Church teaching, should not be in a position of authority. It doesn't matter whether it's homosexuality, child molestation, rape, lying, fraud, blackmail, bribery or any other morally unacceptable behaviours. Somehow sinning prevents anyone from being authoritative or true. This is the fallacy.

Because the Church holds that its teachings (and therefore it) are infallible, it cannot appoint anyone who is openly sinful or fallible.

Semiremis

You believe that the Church is against equality, I'm curious as to why that is so.

The prevention of women being in positions of authority is an example of how it is against equality. This is sexism, considering that sex does not determine in any way ones ability to teach, preach or tell the truth.

Another example is how priests must not be married. This is discrimination against married men (and women) and, on top of that, is also unscriptural. But, again, this teaching entirely depends on one's belief in the infallibility of the Church and, therefore, its teachings.  

[Semiremis]

Priestley

Semiremis

Matt Pniewski

Semiremis

Good for him, he believes that freedom of religion is being infringed upon (something that needs to be protected) and he's speaking out against it...I take no issue with that.

In the article the Pope is quoted as saying: "Your country is well-known for its firm commitment to equality of opportunity for all members of society.

"Yet, as you have rightly pointed out, the effect of some of the legislation designed to achieve this goal has been to impose unjust limitations on the freedom of religious communities to act in accordance with their beliefs.

Like with what Widdecombe says in the article, the Catholic Church at least in regards to this subject is not trying to influence what non-catholics do and the secular world has no place trying to influence Catholic moral teachings. The Church shouldn't be forced to put into a position of authority those who stand against her teachings, and that's what the objection to the equality bill is all about based on what I've read.


Personally, I'd have to see the details before I could really say what I thought on this but a huge red flag goes up for me when freedom is gained by trampling on other freedom. If it's just the general workforce that's being affected by this then I see no reason for the Church to object.

The Catholic Church, and other religious organizations, feel threatened by Equality. Gay Rights, Women's Rights, Abortion Rights (which i seperate from Women's right for various reason).... Religious organizations have very set opinions on these things, and they think that if the Government takes an opposing stance, they are infringing on THEIR rights.


However, nobody is claiming the Church can't protest Abortion, or the Church can't exclude homosexual priests. They believe simply that the opposing stances are infringing on the rights of Christians. Fact is, there rights to believe what they believe and act on those is not in question.




Pretty much what the Pope is saying is "We want people to be bigots and hate people who are different", something he learned in his past as a Hitler Youth no doubt.

The Catholic Church is worried about being forced to put into positions of some authority those who take stances that go against Church teaching (as stated in the article), your other claims are just supposition.

The reasoning behind this is such that anyone who has sinned, can not or will not stop sinning, in opposition to Church teaching, should not be in a position of authority. It doesn't matter whether it's homosexuality, child molestation, rape, lying, fraud, blackmail, bribery or any other morally unacceptable behaviours. Somehow sinning prevents anyone from being authoritative or true. This is the fallacy.

It's not the sinning that's the problem (we all struggle with sin), it's holding the belief that that particular sin (as taught by the Catholic Church) is okay that is the problem which is quite a different thing.

Quote:

Semiremis

You believe that the Church is against equality, I'm curious as to why that is so.

The prevention of women being in positions of authority is an example of how it is against equality. This is sexism, considering that sex does not determine in any way ones ability to teach, preach or tell the truth.

Another example is how priests must not be married. This is discrimination against married men (and women) and, on top of that, is also unscriptural. But, again, this teaching entirely depends on one's belief in the infallibility of the Church and, therefore, its teachings.

Women are in positions of authority, the Church has always taught that there were different sex roles she does not consider any more valid then the other, all are necessary and equal. The bible holds to that as well does it not?

Priests not being married has nothing to do with discrimination, those who consider joining the priesthood know what is asked of them. It's a discipline imposed by the Catholic Church and where in the bible does it say that that discipline is wrong?  

[Matt Pniewski]

Semiremis

Matt Pniewski

Semiremis

Good for him, he believes that freedom of religion is being infringed upon (something that needs to be protected) and he's speaking out against it...I take no issue with that.

In the article the Pope is quoted as saying: "Your country is well-known for its firm commitment to equality of opportunity for all members of society.

"Yet, as you have rightly pointed out, the effect of some of the legislation designed to achieve this goal has been to impose unjust limitations on the freedom of religious communities to act in accordance with their beliefs.

Like with what Widdecombe says in the article, the Catholic Church at least in regards to this subject is not trying to influence what non-catholics do and the secular world has no place trying to influence Catholic moral teachings. The Church shouldn't be forced to put into a position of authority those who stand against her teachings, and that's what the objection to the equality bill is all about based on what I've read.


Personally, I'd have to see the details before I could really say what I thought on this but a huge red flag goes up for me when freedom is gained by trampling on other freedom. If it's just the general workforce that's being affected by this then I see no reason for the Church to object.

The Catholic Church, and other religious organizations, feel threatened by Equality. Gay Rights, Women's Rights, Abortion Rights (which i seperate from Women's right for various reason).... Religious organizations have very set opinions on these things, and they think that if the Government takes an opposing stance, they are infringing on THEIR rights.


However, nobody is claiming the Church can't protest Abortion, or the Church can't exclude homosexual priests. They believe simply that the opposing stances are infringing on the rights of Christians. Fact is, there rights to believe what they believe and act on those is not in question.




Pretty much what the Pope is saying is "We want people to be bigots and hate people who are different", something he learned in his past as a Hitler Youth no doubt.

The Catholic Church is worried about being forced to put into positions of some authority those who take stances that go against Church teaching (as stated in the article), your other claims are just supposition.

That's exactly what I said. The Church wants to keep the right to discriminate. I think that idea supports my other claims. That's actually what I said completely. The Church is worried about losing the right to discriminate, that's all it comes down to.

Quote:

You believe that the Church is against equality, I'm curious as to why that is so.

No women priests, no gay priests, ect. You can have an alter boy fondle your ding dong, but you can't have a v****a or formerly have had a serious sexual interest in men. Despite the fact priests are celebate anyway.

Quote:

Women are in positions of authority, the Church has always taught that there were different sex roles she does not consider any more valid then the other, all are necessary and equal. The bible holds to that as well does it not?

Ha. Seperate but Equal.


And the Bible speaks of social structures that were created and followed many years ago. It does not create a list of jobs that a man can't do or a woman can't do, merely gender roles that do in many ways reflect biological traits. Many positions in the Catholic Church were created by the Church, not the bible. It's their rules, not God's.  

[Galad Aglaron]

I think the Pope is an old fool, and the Catholic Church an archaic, obtuse institution that desperately tries to make itself relevant again by meddling in other people's business. Why can it not practice its own faith and leave everyone else to live life in whatever way seems best to them? A clerical collar or papal tiara does not give them the right to judge how others choose to conduct themselves.  

[Semiremis]

Galad Damodred

I think the Pope is an old fool, and the Catholic Church an archaic, obtuse institution that desperately tries to make itself relevant again by meddling in other people's business. Why can it not practice its own faith and leave everyone else to live life in whatever way seems best to them? A clerical collar or papal tiara does not give them the right to judge how others choose to conduct themselves.

Have you ever met the Pope?

Outside of Christianity I agree that the Catholic Church should not try to impose her religious beliefs on the rest of the world. Things have been moving in that direction though ever since Father Murray took up that dissenting view in the mid-20th century.  

[Semiremis]

Matt Pniewski

Semiremis

Matt Pniewski

Semiremis

Good for him, he believes that freedom of religion is being infringed upon (something that needs to be protected) and he's speaking out against it...I take no issue with that.

In the article the Pope is quoted as saying: "Your country is well-known for its firm commitment to equality of opportunity for all members of society.

"Yet, as you have rightly pointed out, the effect of some of the legislation designed to achieve this goal has been to impose unjust limitations on the freedom of religious communities to act in accordance with their beliefs.

Like with what Widdecombe says in the article, the Catholic Church at least in regards to this subject is not trying to influence what non-catholics do and the secular world has no place trying to influence Catholic moral teachings. The Church shouldn't be forced to put into a position of authority those who stand against her teachings, and that's what the objection to the equality bill is all about based on what I've read.


Personally, I'd have to see the details before I could really say what I thought on this but a huge red flag goes up for me when freedom is gained by trampling on other freedom. If it's just the general workforce that's being affected by this then I see no reason for the Church to object.

The Catholic Church, and other religious organizations, feel threatened by Equality. Gay Rights, Women's Rights, Abortion Rights (which i seperate from Women's right for various reason).... Religious organizations have very set opinions on these things, and they think that if the Government takes an opposing stance, they are infringing on THEIR rights.


However, nobody is claiming the Church can't protest Abortion, or the Church can't exclude homosexual priests. They believe simply that the opposing stances are infringing on the rights of Christians. Fact is, there rights to believe what they believe and act on those is not in question.




Pretty much what the Pope is saying is "We want people to be bigots and hate people who are different", something he learned in his past as a Hitler Youth no doubt.

The Catholic Church is worried about being forced to put into positions of some authority those who take stances that go against Church teaching (as stated in the article), your other claims are just supposition.

That's exactly what I said. The Church wants to keep the right to discriminate. I think that idea supports my other claims. That's actually what I said completely. The Church is worried about losing the right to discriminate, that's all it comes down to.

Everyone discriminates in some manner and yes the Catholic Church does discriminate against things that are viewed to be sinful. You are being discriminative about the Churches right to discriminate and then adding on your own spin to try to demonize her.

Quote:

Quote:

You believe that the Church is against equality, I'm curious as to why that is so.

No women priests, no gay priests, ect. You can have an alter boy fondle your ding dong, but you can't have a v****a or formerly have had a serious sexual interest in men. Despite the fact priests are celebate anyway.

People are assholes, they're found everywhere, bad people do bad things and bad people are found amongst all walks of life...that's something you should know by now. You don't like the Catholic Church, fine, I got that. If you can't limit your own extremely strong personal bias towards the Church then don't bother discussing things regarding her at all, you'll never have a chance at seeing straight.

Quote:

Quote:

Women are in positions of authority, the Church has always taught that there were different sex roles she does not consider any more valid then the other, all are necessary and equal. The bible holds to that as well does it not?

Ha. Seperate but Equal.


And the Bible speaks of social structures that were created and followed many years ago. It does not create a list of jobs that a man can't do or a woman can't do, merely gender roles that do in many ways reflect biological traits. Many positions in the Catholic Church were created by the Church, not the bible. It's their rules, not God's.

Yes the bible was written by cultures that existed thousands of years ago. Were there ever women priestesses mentioned in the NT, did women play that role? Did men cross those boundaries either? The Church is still heavily influenced by that culture and it's not about being right or wrong, it's about not being so damn ethnocentric that you can't realize that other people live differently from you and follow different rules and that that's okay.  

[Matt Pniewski]

Semiremis

Everyone discriminates in some manner and yes the Catholic Church does discriminate against things that are viewed to be sinful. You are being discriminative about the Churches right to discriminate and then adding on your own spin to try to demonize her.

I am NOT trying to demonize the Church. I made it clear my arguement is against Church leadership. If you don't understand the difference, why should I bother with it? I mean, I flat out stated I've always taken issue with Church leadership but made it clear that I have no agenda against it. Read what I said before.

Matt Pniewski

Lazarus The Resurected

Realy Matt, the Nazi shot? I'm surprised at you. The catholic church has always been biggotted, woman hating, gay-bashing, and descriminatory regardless of who thier leader is. JP would be making the same protest if he weren't burning in hell right now.

I'm taking the Nazi shot. While I've always had a problem with Church leadership, I was born and raised catholic, and my family's priest is still very much a person of great moral character, and definitely a source of guidance in my life. The Nazi shot was a cheap joke, and it also concreted my dislike of Church leadership, and my very obvious dislike of most organized religion.

I will not disrespect religion as a whole, nor any branch of it. Unless we are talking about Christian Scientists.






If you are a member of the Church of Christian Science, after you get yourself vaccinated, look up at my sarcastic attitude and go "Oh, he's serious about what he believes but he is exaggerating quite a bit."

The point of that was pointing out that I have no ill will towards the Church but have found fault with it, and organized forms of religion, yet have no personal prejudice.


Thinking that I am demonizing the Church by being critical is like saying I hate America if I don't always agree with the President. How about call me a Red Commie Terrorists because I've found fault with the countries leadership since I was young? Or how about say I hate my parents because I've questioned their methods.

Point should be clear now. I will make no more examples because if it hasn't gotten to you yet, it's all been in vain.

Quote:

People are assholes, they're found everywhere, bad people do bad things and bad people are found amongst all walks of life...that's something you should know by now. You don't like the Catholic Church, fine, I got that. If you can't limit your own extremely strong personal bias towards the Church then don't bother discussing things regarding her at all, you'll never have a chance at seeing straight.

Again, you are so hell bent on believing that I have a prejudice against the church that you are the one who isn't seeing straight. If you can't accept the fact that the Church has flaws, it will never change, it will never get better. People are assholes, and they are everywhere. you said it yourself. If you are too hung up on defending them where they may be, they will continue as such. You can't just say "Don't criticize the Church."

Well, how else do they know they are wrong?

Quote:

Yes the bible was written by cultures that existed thousands of years ago. Were there ever women priestesses mentioned in the NT, did women play that role? Did men cross those boundaries either? The Church is still heavily influenced by that culture and it's not about being right or wrong, it's about not being so damn ethnocentric that you can't realize that other people live differently from you and follow different rules and that that's okay.

The Church is more influenced by the cultures of Early Christians that they sometimes give it more value than the word of Christ. And that's where alot of the trouble comes.  

[Priestley]

Well said, Matt.  

[Lazarus The Resurected]

How come Galad and Matt get to insult the pope directly but I can't make a true statement about the church being full of crap?

Mod Response: There is a difference between criticisms and insults. If you feel any comments made by another user have been out of line, feel free to point them out so they can be addressed.  

[Priestley]

Semiremis

Priestley

Semiremis

Matt Pniewski

Semiremis

Good for him, he believes that freedom of religion is being infringed upon (something that needs to be protected) and he's speaking out against it...I take no issue with that.

In the article the Pope is quoted as saying: "Your country is well-known for its firm commitment to equality of opportunity for all members of society.

"Yet, as you have rightly pointed out, the effect of some of the legislation designed to achieve this goal has been to impose unjust limitations on the freedom of religious communities to act in accordance with their beliefs.

Like with what Widdecombe says in the article, the Catholic Church at least in regards to this subject is not trying to influence what non-catholics do and the secular world has no place trying to influence Catholic moral teachings. The Church shouldn't be forced to put into a position of authority those who stand against her teachings, and that's what the objection to the equality bill is all about based on what I've read.


Personally, I'd have to see the details before I could really say what I thought on this but a huge red flag goes up for me when freedom is gained by trampling on other freedom. If it's just the general workforce that's being affected by this then I see no reason for the Church to object.

The Catholic Church, and other religious organizations, feel threatened by Equality. Gay Rights, Women's Rights, Abortion Rights (which i seperate from Women's right for various reason).... Religious organizations have very set opinions on these things, and they think that if the Government takes an opposing stance, they are infringing on THEIR rights.


However, nobody is claiming the Church can't protest Abortion, or the Church can't exclude homosexual priests. They believe simply that the opposing stances are infringing on the rights of Christians. Fact is, there rights to believe what they believe and act on those is not in question.




Pretty much what the Pope is saying is "We want people to be bigots and hate people who are different", something he learned in his past as a Hitler Youth no doubt.

The Catholic Church is worried about being forced to put into positions of some authority those who take stances that go against Church teaching (as stated in the article), your other claims are just supposition.

The reasoning behind this is such that anyone who has sinned, can not or will not stop sinning, in opposition to Church teaching, should not be in a position of authority. It doesn't matter whether it's homosexuality, child molestation, rape, lying, fraud, blackmail, bribery or any other morally unacceptable behaviours. Somehow sinning prevents anyone from being authoritative or true. This is the fallacy.

It's not the sinning that's the problem (we all struggle with sin), it's holding the belief that that particular sin (as taught by the Catholic Church) is okay that is the problem which is quite a different thing.

Nothing of the message in the Bible is changed by a person in authority sinning. A person can be a hypocrite -- the message he teaches can still be held up as true. Lying does not negate truth -- lying simply obscures it.

Semiremis

Priestley

Semiremis

You believe that the Church is against equality, I'm curious as to why that is so.

The prevention of women being in positions of authority is an example of how it is against equality. This is sexism, considering that sex does not determine in any way ones ability to teach, preach or tell the truth.

Another example is how priests must not be married. This is discrimination against married men (and women) and, on top of that, is also unscriptural. But, again, this teaching entirely depends on one's belief in the infallibility of the Church and, therefore, its teachings.

Women are in positions of authority, the Church has always taught that there were different sex roles she does not consider any more valid then the other, all are necessary and equal. The bible holds to that as well does it not?

Aside from that this response does nothing to address mine, where does the Bible prove the truth of your response?

The ultimate thing barring women from holding, for example, a position in priesthood is that they lack male genitalia. That someone has different sexual organs should not exclude them from holding a position if they are able to perform the duties that the position requires. To suggest it does or should is not only fallacious but is sexist and, therefore, is unjustly discriminatory.

Semiremis

Priests not being married has nothing to do with discrimination, those who consider joining the priesthood know what is asked of them. It's a discipline imposed by the Catholic Church and where in the bible does it say that that discipline is wrong?

You are wrong. That a priest is prevented from marrying while in the priesthood, prevented from priesthood if previously married or must forsake his marriage for priesthood is discriminatory exactly because being married does not disable them from performing the duties that the position requires. Jesus does not condemn men for choosing to be celibate, forsaking sex and marriage. Likewise he does not condemn those who choose to marry and raise a family. Paul himself condones church leaders having a wife and a family, offering only advice that being celibate allows for one's attentions and time to be better focussed towards God.

That the Catholicism places that unnecessary burden on the shoulders of priests is not unlike the teachers of the Law placing unnecessary burdens on the shoulders of everyday folk. It's high time that the Catholic Church admitted it is not infallible.  

[Galad Aglaron]

Semiremis

Galad Damodred

I think the Pope is an old fool, and the Catholic Church an archaic, obtuse institution that desperately tries to make itself relevant again by meddling in other people's business. Why can it not practice its own faith and leave everyone else to live life in whatever way seems best to them? A clerical collar or papal tiara does not give them the right to judge how others choose to conduct themselves.

Have you ever met the Pope?

Outside of Christianity I agree that the Catholic Church should not try to impose her religious beliefs on the rest of the world. Things have been moving in that direction though ever since Father Murray took up that dissenting view in the mid-20th century.

No, I have never met His Holiness. Which is why I think he is an old fool, although I do not know it. I did once have the pleasure of meeting the Dalai Lama, he was a nice old gentleman. A little odd, with a tendency to laugh at his own jokes. His laugh, fortunately, is so infectious that everyone else joins in. Oh, and I met the Archbishop of the Diocese of Melbourne once, and he told me that if he ever wrote an autobiography, it'd be called The Scented Thumb, because after blessings and things, his hand always smells of the chrism oil. Apart from that, my contact with religious leaders has been minimal.

The Church spent centuries as a major political power. I suppose the habit of telling people what you think dies hard.  

[Lazarus The Resurected]

Lazarus The Resurected

How come Galad and Matt get to insult the pope directly but I can't make a true statement about the church being full of crap?

Mod Response: There is a difference between criticisms and insults. If you feel any comments made by another user have been out of line, feel free to point them out so they can be addressed.

Nah i'm cool with the pope-bashing.  

[Semiremis]

Lazarus The Resurected

How come Galad and Matt get to insult the pope directly but I can't make a true statement about the church being full of crap?

Mod Response: There is a difference between criticisms and insults. If you feel any comments made by another user have been out of line, feel free to point them out so they can be addressed.

Freedom of speech cool  

[Semiremis]

Galad Damodred

Semiremis

Galad Damodred

I think the Pope is an old fool, and the Catholic Church an archaic, obtuse institution that desperately tries to make itself relevant again by meddling in other people's business. Why can it not practice its own faith and leave everyone else to live life in whatever way seems best to them? A clerical collar or papal tiara does not give them the right to judge how others choose to conduct themselves.

Have you ever met the Pope?

Outside of Christianity I agree that the Catholic Church should not try to impose her religious beliefs on the rest of the world. Things have been moving in that direction though ever since Father Murray took up that dissenting view in the mid-20th century.

No, I have never met His Holiness. Which is why I think he is an old fool, although I do not know it. I did once have the pleasure of meeting the Dalai Lama, he was a nice old gentleman. A little odd, with a tendency to laugh at his own jokes. His laugh, fortunately, is so infectious that everyone else joins in. Oh, and I met the Archbishop of the Diocese of Melbourne once, and he told me that if he ever wrote an autobiography, it'd be called The Scented Thumb, because after blessings and things, his hand always smells of the chrism oil. Apart from that, my contact with religious leaders has been minimal.

The Church spent centuries as a major political power. I suppose the habit of telling people what you think dies hard.

The dalai lama! Nice, he's definitely on my list of people I would like to meet.

I've never met the pope, there are people I know who have though, I'm not sure what to think of him since I've never spoken to him but you think he's an old fool without even exchanging a few words with him?  

[Lazarus The Resurected]

Semiremis

Galad Damodred

Semiremis

Galad Damodred

I think the Pope is an old fool, and the Catholic Church an archaic, obtuse institution that desperately tries to make itself relevant again by meddling in other people's business. Why can it not practice its own faith and leave everyone else to live life in whatever way seems best to them? A clerical collar or papal tiara does not give them the right to judge how others choose to conduct themselves.

Have you ever met the Pope?

Outside of Christianity I agree that the Catholic Church should not try to impose her religious beliefs on the rest of the world. Things have been moving in that direction though ever since Father Murray took up that dissenting view in the mid-20th century.

No, I have never met His Holiness. Which is why I think he is an old fool, although I do not know it. I did once have the pleasure of meeting the Dalai Lama, he was a nice old gentleman. A little odd, with a tendency to laugh at his own jokes. His laugh, fortunately, is so infectious that everyone else joins in. Oh, and I met the Archbishop of the Diocese of Melbourne once, and he told me that if he ever wrote an autobiography, it'd be called The Scented Thumb, because after blessings and things, his hand always smells of the chrism oil. Apart from that, my contact with religious leaders has been minimal.

The Church spent centuries as a major political power. I suppose the habit of telling people what you think dies hard.

The dalai lama! Nice, he's definitely on my list of people I would like to meet.

I've never met the pope, there are people I know who have though, I'm not sure what to think of him since I've never spoken to him but you think he's an old fool without even exchanging a few words with him?

I feel that Galad could make tha assessment from quite a well founded stance, based on the fact that the Pope is very vocal about his positions and oppinions. If you want to know what and how the pope thinks you just need to take a look at any of his press releases or speeches.
Hell I came to the same conclusion and I'm nowhere near as smart as my freind is. Or as thorough in my research.