Baptism and Converting

[Bastemhet]

TeaDidikai

Bastemhat

But what if the person hasn't gone through all of them, and in this case just the baptism?

What about them? They all serve the same function and confirmation, while strengthening the relationship isn't required to garner the effects promised. That's why Baptism is perhaps the most important sacrament.

Any of the other sacraments can be missed, and you'll still be part of the Church. But a sincere baptism is the gate to union with the god of the Church.

What do you mean by sincere baptism?  

[TeaDidikai]

Bastemhet

What do you mean by sincere baptism?

How complicated do you want to make the explination given that "Rose" wasn't baptized Catholic (arguably given the stance on the validity of Sacraments outside of the Catholic Church).

I'm happy to explain in full if you would like- I just want to know how much detail you want me to go into regarding the different kinds of Baptism.  

[Bastemhet]

TeaDidikai

Bastemhet

What do you mean by sincere baptism?

How complicated do you want to make the explination given that "Rose" wasn't baptized Catholic (arguably given the stance on the validity of Sacraments outside of the Catholic Church).

I'm happy to explain in full if you would like- I just want to know how much detail you want me to go into regarding the different kinds of Baptism.

I'm mostly asking out of personal curiosity, because this question seems to come up a lot, so any information you give would be appreciated.  

[Namikikyo]

Even though I don't like it, I understand what you're saying, Tea. Thank you for your information.

Episcopal is the denomination.

 

[TeaDidikai]

Namikikyo

Even though I don't like it, I understand what you're saying, Tea. Thank you for your information.

Welcome.

As long as she doesn't mind going to hell, I don't see any reason for her to worry myself. Well, save for the chance that any gods she approaches might look at her as an oathbreaker.

Quote:

Episcopal is the denomination.

Since the intention within the CoE and it's various forms is the same as in the Catholic Church, it would be considered spiritually valid, if not socially extended to the Christian.

The Book of Common Prayer

Holy Baptism is full initiation by water and the Holy Spirit into Christ's Body the Church. The bond which God establishes in Baptism is indissoluble.

 

[TeaDidikai]

Tea's Mini Rant on Baptism:

First and foremost, denomination can make a difference.
That said, by far (we're talking almost 2:1) the majority of the world's Christians allow for infant Baptism.

Compound this by the fact that while the largest denomination of Christendom (Catholicism) does not extend social status to individuals Baptized in traditions that are not in communion with the Bishop of Rome, they do extend the same spiritual status to them (ie, if the Baptism was sincere in it's attempt to do what Baptism is supposed to do- purify from sin and establish union with The Father, Son and Holy Ghost) they are considered baptized, even if the other Sacraments are not issued to them.

Further- if an individual dies before they have a chance to be baptized and they sincerely wish to be Baptized, they are considered Baptized by Desire.

There are essentially three forms of Baptism. This is not how most Churches outline the three forms, but it is a good working understanding to the Laity.

Emergency Baptism- the most basic elements of baptism are performed and can be performed by ANYONE. And I do mean anyone. I learned how to do it just so that if I came upon an accident victim, I could do it on request in Latin.

All you need is the desire to establish Baptism in form and function as the Church does.

Next there is the conditional Baptism. If there is a doubt about the validity of Baptism- the words are issued slightly differently.

Thirdly, there is the Formal Rite of Baptism, with all the bells and whistles- which looks a lot like the Emergency Baptism, but includes additional prayers issued by members of the Church who often issue promises to raise the child in the faith by their own faith or if the person is an adult, they confirm their desire to receive the sacrament.

Also note that if an individual does not receive the sacrament in faith, the sacrament is still valid, but the gifts of the Sacrament are delayed until Faith is established.

The words vary from tradition to tradition, denomination to denomination.

An outline of the Catholic and CoE rites are easy enough to find online.

If folks have further questions, go ahead and post them.  

[Namikikyo]

TeaDidikai

Namikikyo

Even though I don't like it, I understand what you're saying, Tea. Thank you for your information.

Welcome.

As long as she doesn't mind going to hell, I don't see any reason for her to worry myself. Well, save for the chance that any gods she approaches might look at her as an oathbreaker.

Quote:

Episcopal is the denomination.

Since the intention within the CoE and it's various forms is the same as in the Catholic Church, it would be considered spiritually valid, if not socially extended to the Christian.

The Book of Common Prayer

Holy Baptism is full initiation by water and the Holy Spirit into Christ's Body the Church. The bond which God establishes in Baptism is indissoluble.

Can she at least leave that Church, but worship Yeshua in her own way? I've seen Christian Witches around here.

 

[TeaDidikai]

Namikikyo

Can she at least leave that Church, but worship Yeshua in her own way? I've seen Christian Witches around here.

I don't see a reason why not- as long as she follows the Law of Agape.

I also don't see why she can't break her oaths as long as she is willing to live with the consequences. ~shrugs~

I'm not trying to provide advice on what she should do, merely pointing out what the spiritual traditions have to say about her options.  

[Bastemhet]

Thanks for the breakdown Tea. Much appreciated.  

[TeaDidikai]

Bastemhet

Thanks for the breakdown Tea. Much appreciated.

Welcome.

Also, one important note, in the event that the person is not of the age of reason (ie, doesn't understand the commitment they are making) one of their parents must be willing to make that commitment in faith on their behalf until they are in the age of reason.

How do I know about this?
Well, it was one of the excuses they used to keep the Rroma out of Church yards. They claimed no faith on the part of the individuals seeking the baptism for the infant, (read: Roma parents) and thus, they could keep all the good grave plots for the "good Christians".  

[Fiddlers Green]

I've been mulling over this quite a bit.
Catholic sacrament is Catholic. Not all Christian sacrament descends from the Catholic ones. I share Tea's commentary that denomination matters.
I find it of great concern that the Church in Rome considers those baptized outside of their auspice to be of the same spiritual status as their own. It implies an ownership of the faith that galls me. As a staunch anti-Nicene, I consider it something of a personal affront.

To address 1121 regarding the three sacraments...
Do the 3 not confer the different levels of affiliation?
Baptism: a positive disposition for grace
Confirmation: a promise and guarantee of divine protection
Holy Orders: a vocation to divine worship and to the service of the Church

I've got an appointment with the local Bishop to explain this to me fully, however, that was sorta the impression that I got from my initial inquiries.

Beyound anything else, if someone wishes to break covenant with their over-lord, that is their choice. Just as I would not hold a person to his/her word given in her/his cups, or under duress, I would ignore oaths made by those incapable of comprehending them. It mildly disgusts me the level of deception that some use to get others to participate in their rituals. However, in the end, I can't absolve someone for telling Shem to kiss them in the forth point of contact. [/personal views]

No, the real question is whether the new patron will accept the convert, and if they can protect them from Shem's potential wrath. Also, always remember, you can get excommunicated. Work hard for it.  

[rmcdra]

Fiddlers Green

I've been mulling over this quite a bit.
Catholic sacrament is Catholic. Not all Christian sacrament descends from the Catholic ones. I share Tea's commentary that denomination matters.
I find it of great concern that the Church in Rome considers those baptized outside of their auspice to be of the same spiritual status as their own. It implies an ownership of the faith that galls me. As a staunch anti-Nicene, I consider it something of a personal affront.

To address 1121 regarding the three sacraments...
Do the 3 not confer the different levels of affiliation?
Baptism: a positive disposition for grace
Confirmation: a promise and guarantee of divine protection
Holy Orders: a vocation to divine worship and to the service of the Church

I've got an appointment with the local Bishop to explain this to me fully, however, that was sorta the impression that I got from my initial inquiries.

Beyound anything else, if someone wishes to break covenant with their over-lord, that is their choice. Just as I would not hold a person to his/her word given in her/his cups, or under duress, I would ignore oaths made by those incapable of comprehending them. It mildly disgusts me the level of deception that some use to get others to participate in their rituals. However, in the end, I can't absolve someone for telling Shem to kiss them in the forth point of contact. [/personal views]

No, the real question is whether the new patron will accept the convert, and if they can protect them from Shem's potential wrath. Also, always remember, you can get excommunicated. Work hard for it.

Well the problem with excommunication is that they are still considered Christians. Schismatics, heretics, and apostates still classify as Christians to RCC, EO, and CoE. The only way to dissolve all ties with the Church is though a formal letter of defection declaring your intent and reasons for leaving the Church. If this is not possible, then there's always the option of asking YHVH or Yeshua to let one out of his covenant. I mean YHVH can be a d**k but he's reasonable.

Next the Church can technically claim those baptized outside Her because most Protestant denominations directly descend from Catholicism. If the Protestant church is Trinitarian (Mormons being the exception), then the baptism formula is going to be pretty similar if not exact.

CCC

1256 The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon. In case of necessity, any person, even someone not baptized, can baptize, if he has the required intention. The intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she baptizes, and to apply the Trinitarian baptismal formula. The Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation.

 

[rmcdra]

Canon Law: Chapter 6, Section 3

Can. 694 §1 A member is to be considered automatically dismissed if he or she:

1° has notoriously defected from the catholic faith;

2° has contracted marriage or attempted to do so, even civilly.

§2 In these cases the major Superior with his or her council must, after collecting the evidence, without delay make a declaration of the fact, so that the dismissal is juridically established.

Can. 695 §1 A member must be dismissed for the offences mentioned in cann. 1397, 1398 and 1395, unless, for the offences mentioned in can. 1395 §2, the Superior judges that dismissal is not absolutely necessary; and that sufficient provision can be made in some other way for the amendment of the member, the restoration of justice and the reparation of scandal.

§2 In these cases the major Superior is to collect the evidence concerning the facts and the imputability of the offence. The accusation and the evidence are then to be presented to the member, who shall be given the opportunity for defence. All the acts, signed by the major Superior and the notary, are to be forwarded, together with the written and signed replies of the member, to the supreme Moderator.

Can. 696 §1 A member can be dismissed for other causes, provided they are grave, external, imputable and juridically proven. Among such causes are: habitual neglect of the obligations of consecrated life; repeated violations of the sacred bonds; obstinate disobedience to the lawful orders of Superiors in grave matters; grave scandal arising from the culpable behaviour of the member; obstinate attachment to, or diffusion of, teachings condemned by the magisterium of the Church; public adherence to materialistic or atheistic ideologies; the unlawful absence mentioned in can. 665 §2, if it extends for a period of six months; other reasons of similar gravity which are perhaps defined in the institute’s own law.

§2 A member in temporary vows can be dismissed even for less grave reasons determined in the institute’s own law.

Can. 697 §1 In the cases mentioned in can. 696, if the major Superior, after consulting his or her council, judges that the process of dismissal should be commenced:

1° the major Superior is to collect or complete the evidence;

2° the major Superior is to warn the member in writing, or before two witnesses, with an explicit caution that dismissal will follow unless the member reforms. The reasons for dismissal are to be clearly expressed and the member is to be given every opportunity for defence. If the warning has no effect, another warning is to be given after an interval of at least fifteen days;

3° if this latter warning is also ineffectual, and the major Superior with his or her council judges that there is sufficient proof of incorrigibility, and that the defence by the member is insufficient, after fifteen days from the last warning have passed in vain all the acts, signed by the major Superior and the notary, are to be forwarded, together with the signed replies of the member, to the supreme Moderator.

Can. 698 In all the cases mentioned in cann. 695 and 696, the member always retains the right to communicate with, and send replies directly to, the supreme Moderator.

Can. 699 §1 The supreme Moderator and his or her council are to proceed in collegial fashion in accurately weighing the evidence, the arguments, and the defence. For validity, the council must comprise at least four members. If by a secret vote it is decided to dismiss the religious, a decree of dismissal is to be drawn up, which for validity must express at least in summary form the reasons in law and in fact.

§2 In the autonomous monasteries mentioned in can. 615, the judgement about dismissal belongs to the diocesan Bishop. The Superior is to submit the acts to him after they have been reviewed by the council.

Can. 700 The decree of dismissal has no effect unless it is confirmed by the Holy See, to whom the decree and all the acts are to be forwarded. If the matter concerns an institute of diocesan right, the confirmation belongs to the Bishop in whose diocese is located the house to which the religious belongs. For validity the decree must indicate the right of the person dismissed to have recourse to the competent authority within ten days of receiving notification of the decree. The recourse has a suspensive effect.

Can. 701 By lawful dismissal, both the vows and the rights and duties deriving from profession automatically cease. If the member is a cleric, he may not exercise sacred orders until he finds a Bishop who will, after a suitable probation, receive him into his diocese in accordance with can. 693, or who will at least allow him to exercise his sacred orders.

Can. 702 §1 Whoever lawfully leaves a religious institute or is lawfully dismissed from one, cannot claim anything from the institute for any work done in it.

§2 The institute, however, is to show equity and evangelical charity towards the member who is separated from it.

Can. 703 §1 In a case of grave external scandal, or of extremely grave and imminent harm to the institute, a member can be expelled forthwith from the house by the major Superior. If there is danger in delay, this can be done by the local Superior with the consent of his or her council. The major Superior, if need be, is to introduce a process of dismissal in accordance with the norms of law, or refer the matter to the Apostolic See.

Can. 704 In the report to be sent to the Apostolic See in accordance with can. 592, §1, mention is to be made of members who have been separated in any way from the institute.

Doesn't break the covenant with YHVH but does dissolves ties to the Church. The simplest and most peaceful way would be simply a letter declaring that you wish to leave the Church and explain why. Expect resistance of course but if you are persistent they will stop recognizing you.  

[Fiddlers Green]

rmcdra

Well the problem with excommunication is that they are still considered Christians. Schismatics, heretics, and apostates still classify as Christians to RCC, EO, and CoE. The only way to dissolve all ties with the Church is though a formal letter of defection declaring your intent and reasons for leaving the Church. If this is not possible, then there's always the option of asking YHVH or Yeshua to let one out of his covenant.

Why should the apostate care what their former affiliation considers them?
Also, if the apostate has reason to believe that the sacrament giving authority(organization) does not actually have the Authority(divine investiture) to grant these sacraments, would they still be bound, or does it make the matter moot?

Quote:

I mean YHVH can be a d**k but he's reasonable.

I disagree. However, I will agree to disagree. I merely mention this to give context to my position.

Quote:

Next the Church can technically claim those baptized outside Her because most Protestant denominations directly descend from Catholicism. If the Protestant church is Trinitarian (Mormons being the exception), then the baptism formula is going to be pretty similar if not exact.

This does little to cover Coptics, Armenians, or any other non-nicene, who may practice their own baptismal rights. Further, how can the RCC recognize baptisms performed by excommunicated members without lifting that excommunication?

CCC

1256 The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon. In case of necessity, any person, even someone not baptized, can baptize, if he has the required intention. The intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she baptizes, and to apply the Trinitarian baptismal formula. The Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation.

CCC

1463 Certain particularly grave sins incur excommunication, the most severe ecclesiastical penalty, which impedes the reception of the sacraments and the exercise of certain ecclesiastical acts, and for which absolution consequently cannot be granted, according to canon law, except by the Pope, the bishop of the place or priests authorized by them. In danger of death any priest, even if deprived of faculties for hearing confessions, can absolve from every sin and excommunication.[69]

Someone please clarify this one for me. sweatdrop  

[Fiddlers Green]

rmcdra

Canon Law: Chapter 6, Section 3

~snip for length~

Doesn't break the covenant with YHVH but does dissolves ties to the Church. The simplest and most peaceful way would be simply a letter declaring that you wish to leave the Church and explain why. Expect resistance of course but if you are persistent they will stop recognizing you.

Thank you, that is a goodly amount of food for thought.