The semantics of Paganism

[TeaDidikai]

KuraiNeko

You should be readily familiar with it then, it is so close to home.

Yep, since I spend most of my time correcting positions like yours, I am very familiar.

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You should really think about these things.

I have, and I continue to do so.

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I never stated anything as fact, I only proposed questions and stated an opinion (about people being pretentious about terminology, like you).

When you present your unsupported personal opinions as true, no amount of weasel words will change the intellectual dishonesty.

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You act like I listed off a bunch of s**t and then demanded it be taken as fact. I dont think questions really qualify for the fact/opinion debate. Only the answer. But hey, if you want to attack me because my questions somehow offended you, have fun.

Please drop the persecution complex. I have not attacked you. I have challenged your positions by citing fallacies and providing counter examples as a means to demonstrate why you are either outright wrong or at least need to reexamine your claims.

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Just remember, I try to enter something with civility but I attack right back when attacked. If you'd made a legitimate conjecture about me being mistaken or politely pointed out an opinion that may have come off as "fact" then I would politely accept your conjecture and corrected myself.

This is a style over substance fallacy in an attempt to justify your poor behavior.

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In this case you simply attacked me for nothing.

See above. Criticizing your position is not attacking you.

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It's this type of s**t that pisses me off about religion and Paganism (ect) in particular.

I imagine people presenting quality arguments as to why you are wrong when you aren't able to understand the difference between you and your opinions would be highly annoying. But the problem isn't with the criticism.

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But hey, you obviously know more than me

Agreed.

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and are far superior.

Wouldn't go that far. Maybe I am. Odds are there are numerous things I am better at/with than you.

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You know everything about me and can act as if you were better, no questions asked.

Don't need to know everything about you. I know what I am talking about and how it directly contradicts your opinion. That's good enough.

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Civility is unnecessary when dealing with heathens like me.

I was civil. Unlike you who degenerated into flames.

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Don't worry, I understand and I hope you have fun with that ego of yours oh infallible mistress.

Why is it that the people who scream about being "open minded" are the first ones to throw a tantrum and get either passive aggressive or sarcastic when presented with reasons they aren't correct?  

[Recursive Paradox]

KuraiNeko

It seems to me that people get really freakin' pretentious about this

This word (pretension), I do not think you know what it means.

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In a serious intellectual debate I see the importance of defining ones terms but it seems in common usage to be less important.

I would disagree. Common usage is... well... common. Common usage acts as a training for what words mean. If the common usage is wrong, then you are training yourself to use the word wrong. Which means when you enter a serious intellectual debate (or even just try to educate/learn) you will run straight into a brick wall and likely cause a lot of problems for both yourself and others.

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Neopagan vs Pagan. Is one term more appropriate than another? Are they both usable? In what context?

I'd be less of an expert on that. I tend to avoid the word pagan or neopagan because I dislike umbrella terms of such a wide net. It yields very little actual information.

I either say Etherism or I say "a nontheistic, energy channeling and self elevating religious path"

I won't speak on Wica, it's not an area that I am well versed in. But there will always be fine thresholds wherein the context changes. All you need to do is study it a bit to have them in your head when you need them.

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Aren't religions transient and changeable?

No. Not inherently. Not even commonly.

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Look at Christianity, there are gay Christians now.

So? One religion isn't really an indicator of a trend in religion overall.

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What about the less strict Paganism.

Actually there are Pagan and neo Pagan paths that are very strict and rigid. You should really make less assumptions in your questions. It's referred to as a begging the question fallacy. If your questions are all built on premises that beg a question, "what makes you think that premise is true?" then your questions are not very answerable.

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Must they include only elements of old religions?

This would depend on the type of religion or whether they're attempting to reconstruct something.

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They've changed so much can they not continue to change?

Begging the Question (BTQ) fallacy again. Who says they've all changed at all? Or even a lot? Who says that changing in the past means change now is appropriate? Why all the assumptions?

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At the time Pagan religions generally had a deity of the harvest but now we have factory farming.

This is false. On both counts.

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Is a harvest god/dess still appropriate?

BTQ invoked: Why wouldn't it be? Do you think deities exist by the whims of human society's functionality?

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What about gods appropriate to our time like a god of the net?

Depends on the religion. Also BTQ invoked: why does a deity need to be appropriate to our time? Do you consider gods and goddesses to be products of humanity?

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Terminology seems to be the root of most of the pretentious bull in Paganism so I wanted to hear opinions.

You really might want to look up what pretentious means.  

[Recursive Paradox]

Is loaded question a fallacy? I can't remember. But if so it's all over that post.  

[TeaDidikai]

I was thinking more about semantics.

Terms like Wicca, Karma, Shaman and the like will often garner strong reactions for two reasons.

First, is that since the words have specific meanings, misapplying them creates confusion. For example, Karma is not the Ethic of Reciprocity in theological connotations. Are you talking about British Traditional Witchcraft- or an IRAB High Priestess?

The second reason there is often an issue of privilege based blindness, and the way it degrades others. When someone who hasn't earned a title, or is ignorant of the meaning of a word they choose to apply to themselves, they are demonstrating they have more "rights" to a given thing than those who earned it. I don't care if earning it consists of study, initiation or what have you. Situations vary. But the fact remains that any time someone claims to be an "Irish Pagan", a "Shaman", etc, or speaks of terms they do not understand, they are perpetuating privilege based ignorance. They continue to support having blinders on to others and the truth of certain matters.  

[TeaDidikai]

Recursive Paradox

Is loaded question a fallacy? I can't remember. But if so it's all over that post.

Yep.  

[Recursive Paradox]

TeaDidikai

Recursive Paradox

Is loaded question a fallacy? I can't remember. But if so it's all over that post.

Yep.

Oh... that sounds like begging the question. o_O I wonder if they're synonyms and if so, why didn't I remember that?  

[Bastemhet]

Recursive Paradox

TeaDidikai

Recursive Paradox

Is loaded question a fallacy? I can't remember. But if so it's all over that post.

Yep.

Oh... that sounds like begging the question. o_O I wonder if they're synonyms and if so, why didn't I remember that?

Wow...I knew about both fallacies, but this is the first time it ever occurred to me that they both mean the same thing. xd Now I Know. *shooting star*  

[TeaDidikai]

Recursive Paradox

TeaDidikai

Recursive Paradox

Is loaded question a fallacy? I can't remember. But if so it's all over that post.

Yep.

Oh... that sounds like begging the question. o_O I wonder if they're synonyms and if so, why didn't I remember that?

They're related.
But you have to keep in mind that while using a loaded question can be fallacious, not all loaded question posts are fallacious. Loaded questions can be a form of Begging the Question, but aren't always.  

[Recursive Paradox]

TeaDidikai

Recursive Paradox

TeaDidikai

Recursive Paradox

Is loaded question a fallacy? I can't remember. But if so it's all over that post.

Yep.

Oh... that sounds like begging the question. o_O I wonder if they're synonyms and if so, why didn't I remember that?

They're related.
But you have to keep in mind that while using a loaded question can be fallacious, not all loaded question posts are fallacious. Loaded questions can be a form of Begging the Question, but aren't always.

Good point.  

[Gho the Girl]

I am not knowledgeable about Wica, or Wicca, or such subjects, so I shall not speak towards those subjects, they are not my realm to make claims. I can only speak with any semblence of authority to that which I have some familiarity with, so I shall focus on that, if I may. I hope I don't offend anyone by doing this, I merely don't wish to claim authority over something that I am not authoritative, or even well-acquainted.

This would also be a good place to put the disclaimer that: 1) I am not even truly authoritative with Christianity, and while familiar am by no means an expert, or even knowledgeable. However, since it is my faith, I do feel I have the privilege to say something about it, as long as I qualify that it such views are only to be taken as far as I can be. 2) This reasoning I present here is my own, and I don't hold anyone else to it, please, those who read my words herein, speak as you will, as I now speak as I will. Please forgive any transgressions I make within this post and please point them out to me so that I may learn.

Finally, excuse my wordiness, please.

KuraiNeko

Aren't religions transient and changeable?

Depends on the religion. There are too many forms, practices, ways, to assign such a quality. Even within those that are transient and changeable, there are limits to how far one can toe the line before you trip over it. There comes a point where the heretic is no longer a heretic and is their own practitioner. In Christendom, for instance, if one claims to be Christian but doesn't believe in Yeshua in any extent, I'd personally argue that now you are practicing something that isn't Christian. If one doesn't believe or follow Christ, it doesn't wash with me that they are Christian. That's like making fried eggs with nothing but butter and toast, to me.

In short, some no, others yes, and even then, maybe not completely so.

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Look at Christianity, there are gay Christians now.

There have always been gay Christians. For many Christians, there isn't a problem with such a thing happening. Catholics for instance don't object to gays being Catholic, as long as they don't practice their sexual orientation (at least as far as I've heard). Christ didn't say anything about prohibiting queer people from following him.

Rather, in the history of my faith, it hasn't been a matter of gays rejecting Christianity, it has been a matter of Christians rejecting gays.

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What about the less strict Paganism.

Hey now. In some ways, I am glad I have a pretty easy come easy go god, at least as I've experienced Deus. I can screw up and as long as I'm truly sorry, things are copacetic (sp?). I know for myself that were I to follow some of the Norse or Hellenic gods, I might get myself into a heap of trouble, as I have a habit of offending others, inadvertantly or otherwise. Or even the god of the Old Testament. Goodness Gracious does He have a temper at times. I'd say that plenty of Pagan faiths and paths and traditions are much more strict than the form of Christianity I practice, at least from my personal perspective.

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Must they include only elements of old religions?

Depends upon the elements and what they claim to practice. If they claim to practice Christianity, for example, I'd expect them to believe in Christ to some degree.

Thinking of it foodwise, if what you've baked has no elements of a cake whatsoever, let's say it's made of chicken, then why call it cake? Why not call it baked chicken?

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They've changed so much can they not continue to change?

"So much." How much is so much? Is it really that much?  

[Gho the Girl]

Celeblin Galadeneryn

Gho the Girl

Or even the god of the Old Testament. Goodness Gracious does He have a temper at times.

Are you trying to say you don't worship YHVH, or that YHVH has changed?

I'm saying that the god of the OT, the selected parts of the Torah that were carried over into the Bible, isn't the same as the God that I worship. Whether this is due to dualism or change, I don't know for certain.

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Because last I checked, even Jesus had a bit of a temper.

There's a bit of a temper, throwing over tables at a temple, and then there's destroying entire cities for pissing Him off, killing the first born of an entire nation, prohibiting Moses from ever entering the promised land he'd spent so much of his life getting YHVH's people to, stuff like that.

I'm not saying it was wrong of him to do. I'm saying that the temperament of the OT god is more aggressive and destructive and angry than that of the NT god.