Moja Cesta, My Journey

[Gho the Girl]

Very nice, we will be reading more when we have the time, but sounds very interesting.  

[Aino Ailill]

Collowrath

Those who became enamored of Christ set about worshiping him in the way he asked, through baptism, mass, etc, while retaining the worship of their old gods separately and in the way they had asked of them.

...

This is not a pagan religion or tradition. The people who practice within a double faith are typically very devout Christians, usually Eastern Orthodox or Catholic.

The persons who practice within a double faith practice as described above? If so, I don't understand how. Even allowing that the monotheists are wrong in that God does not require or state that other deities are non-existent, He does make clear that He is a Jealous God and He is to be foremost. Yet He would allow worship of other deities? Or are those deities considered, by the practitioners, to be inferior to Him?  

[Collowrath]

Aino Ailill

Collowrath

Those who became enamored of Christ set about worshiping him in the way he asked, through baptism, mass, etc, while retaining the worship of their old gods separately and in the way they had asked of them.

...

This is not a pagan religion or tradition. The people who practice within a double faith are typically very devout Christians, usually Eastern Orthodox or Catholic.

The persons who practice within a double faith practice as described above? If so, I don't understand how. Even allowing that the monotheists are wrong in that God does not require or state that other deities are non-existent, He does make clear that He is a Jealous God and He is to be foremost. Yet He would allow worship of other deities? Or are those deities considered, by the practitioners, to be inferior to Him?

This is something that I struggle with, personally. In fact, it's a big part of what prompted the creation of this thread; it would force me to work it out critically. wink

Here's my personal inclination: Christ and the pagan Gods have two very different goals in mind. Our native Gods are mostly concerned with our Earthly well-being (if they're concerned with our well-being at all). We go to them for healthy crops, healthy births, luck, protection from worldly or Otherworldly threats. Christ on the other hand, isn't concerned with that at all - he is concerned with what happens to us after we die. In the pagan Slavic world view, there is no concept of "heaven" as the Christians know it. The closest we have is svarga, but it's not really the same at all. Christ provides us with the opportunity to have a happy afterlife.

Essentially? Go to Jarilo for good crops, go to Perun for protection, and go to Christ for Salvation.

On the Christian side, I think the answer is semantically easier, but probably more difficult philosophically. Essentially, the idea of YHVH as a jealous God stops with Christ. Now, the important element is the Savior aspect - the law that matters now is agape. In which case, you would have to analyze your worship of pagan Gods as well within that framework. I think the side that Dveviere comes down on is that your treatment of the old Gods is governed by agape as well - continue to love them as much as you love Christ.

Given that, as long as you fulfill his sacraments and etc, your worship of pagan Gods is irrelevant.

Quote:

Or are those deities considered, by the practitioners, to be inferior to Him?

This is sticky. If you accept YHVH as the source of creation, then yes, the other Gods would be inferior in that they would be creations. But that doesn't make them not Gods.  

[Aino Ailill]

Collowrath

Aino Ailill

Collowrath

Those who became enamored of Christ set about worshiping him in the way he asked, through baptism, mass, etc, while retaining the worship of their old gods separately and in the way they had asked of them.

...

This is not a pagan religion or tradition. The people who practice within a double faith are typically very devout Christians, usually Eastern Orthodox or Catholic.

The persons who practice within a double faith practice as described above? If so, I don't understand how. Even allowing that the monotheists are wrong in that God does not require or state that other deities are non-existent, He does make clear that He is a Jealous God and He is to be foremost. Yet He would allow worship of other deities? Or are those deities considered, by the practitioners, to be inferior to Him?

This is something that I struggle with, personally. In fact, it's a big part of what prompted the creation of this thread; it would force me to work it out critically. wink

Here's my personal inclination: Christ and the pagan Gods have two very different goals in mind. Our native Gods are mostly concerned with our Earthly well-being (if they're concerned with our well-being at all). We go to them for healthy crops, healthy births, luck, protection from worldly or Otherworldly threats. Christ on the other hand, isn't concerned with that at all - he is concerned with what happens to us after we die. In the pagan Slavic world view, there is no concept of "heaven" as the Christians know it. The closest we have is svarga, but it's not really the same at all. Christ provides us with the opportunity to have a happy afterlife.

Essentially? Go to Jarilo for good crops, go to Perun for protection, and go to Christ for Salvation.

On the Christian side, I think the answer is semantically easier, but probably more difficult philosophically. Essentially, the idea of YHVH as a jealous God stops with Christ. Now, the important element is the Savior aspect - the law that matters now is agape. In which case, you would have to analyze your worship of pagan Gods as well within that framework. I think the side that Dveviere comes down on is that your treatment of the old Gods is governed by agape as well - continue to love them as much as you love Christ.

Given that, as long as you fulfill his sacraments and etc, your worship of pagan Gods is irrelevant.

Quote:

Or are those deities considered, by the practitioners, to be inferior to Him?

This is sticky. If you accept YHVH as the source of creation, then yes, the other Gods would be inferior in that they would be creations. But that doesn't make them not Gods.

...I suppose my contention hear arises with how Jesus put forth the Law of Agape: The first and greatest commandment is to love God. The second great commandment is to love your neighbor.

This would indicate to me that He is still a Jealous God. He comes before all persons. Another verse states that no person will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven unless they hate their mother, father, and even their own life (or something to that effect). This indicates that He is to be the Highest, at least as compared to mortals.

The Law does not mention other gods, and I cannot see that they would be included in the first commandment which seems to me to be saying that He should be the priority. However, I can also not see them placed on par with neighbors - as equals.

Erm...this is illegible right now. I'll come back and edit later but right now, I need sleep! I'm posting because I want my thought-process saved.


Why does the concept of YHWH as a Jealous God stop with Christ? It is a part of His nature. The coming of Jesus (more specifically, his death) might be said to have fulfilled the Old Law, but why would it have changed the very nature of Him?

The Law that matters now is, indeed, Agape. But it is not just love, but love for the God (this is the first and most important), and love for thy neighbor. God is still the Focus, with everything (at least, of mortals) second to Him.

Jude 1:4 NIV

For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

Jude 1:24-25

To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

or men who were marked out for condemnation

To see these passages in context: x


Jude, at the very least, seemed to be under the impression that YHWH is the only god to be worshiped. E's explicit on the 'only.'


Thank you for you patience! whee  

[TeaDidikai]

Collowrath

This is sticky. If you accept YHVH as the source of creation, then yes, the other Gods would be inferior in that they would be creations. But that doesn't make them not Gods.

I'd challenge this position myself.

There's no reason to assume that a creation cannot be superior to it's creator wherein the creator has the ability to make it such. wink

That said, it wouldn't be YHVH that would be attributed as such, but more likely a concept present in Christian Mysticism that would be analogous with AIN.  

[Collowrath]

TeaDidikai

Collowrath

This is sticky. If you accept YHVH as the source of creation, then yes, the other Gods would be inferior in that they would be creations. But that doesn't make them not Gods.

I'd challenge this position myself.

There's no reason to assume that a creation cannot be superior to it's creator wherein the creator has the ability to make it such. wink

That said, it wouldn't be YHVH that would be attributed as such, but more likely a concept present in Christian Mysticism that would be analogous with AIN.

You're certainly right about that. I was thinking in a fixed top-down hierarchy, which wouldn't be accurate and would be inconsistent with what I've presented of my personal theology thus far. A more accurate edit then would probably be then:

Even if you accept YHVH as the creator, that doesn't stop the Gods from being Gods and is no reason to assume YHVH is deserving of any rank or worship higher than any of the other Gods, other than giving credit where credit is due.

I'm not familiar enough with Christian Mysticisms and AIN to comment in detail on that, unfortunately.

Aino, I will patiently await your edit. Take your time. 4laugh  

[Aino Ailill]

^ I edited. Apparently an edit is not sufficient to bump up a thread and so I am doing so here.  

[TeaDidikai]

Aino Ailill

Why does the concept of YHWH as a Jealous God stop with Christ? It is a part of His nature. The coming of Jesus (more specifically, his death) might be said to have fulfilled the Old Law, but why would it have changed the very nature of Him?

Mythologically speaking? Some sects argue that incarnation built empathy.

Quote:

The Law that matters now is, indeed, Agape. But it is not just love, but love for the God (this is the first and most important), and love for thy neighbor. God is still the Focus, with everything (at least, of mortals) second to Him.

Jude 1:4 NIV

For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

Jude 1:24-25

To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

or men who were marked out for condemnation

Who might some of these men be? wink

I know someone I would nominate off the bat, after all, they denied the words of Yeshua. Contrast Mat 15:24 to Acts 13.

Quote:

Jude, at the very least, seemed to be under the impression that YHWH is the only god to be worshiped. E's explicit on the 'only.'

The usual response I see to this is that there since we see in Mat 15 that Yeshua is for those who already hold covenant, who are part of YHVH's tribe, YHVH's inclusion amongst others is an extension of Hospitality, not a forming of a covenant.  

[Collowrath]

Aino Ailill

Why does the concept of YHWH as a Jealous God stop with Christ? It is a part of His nature. The coming of Jesus (more specifically, his death) might be said to have fulfilled the Old Law, but why would it have changed the very nature of Him?

As Tea said: the incarnation builds empathy. On top of that is the extension of hospitality - pre-Christ, YHVH was a tribal God who really doesn't care much for other people outside of those he chose. The sacrifice of Christ is opening himself up to other people. That isn't consistent with a jealous persona.

Quote:

God is still the Focus, with everything (at least, of mortals) second to Him.

Yes, God is the focus. No, the other Gods are not "of mortals." wink

Quote:

Jude, at the very least, seemed to be under the impression that YHWH is the only god to be worshiped. E's explicit on the 'only.'

Jude was also a Jew. I am not a Jew. I am not bound by that covenant.

My answers probably aren't sufficient. More prodding might be necessary - do so at will. Expect edits!  

[TeaDidikai]

Collowrath

The sacrifice of Christ is opening himself up to other people.

Yeshua didn't say this. Paul did.

Quote:

Yes, God is the focus. No, the other Gods are not "of mortals." wink

She means in the purview of mortals.  

[Collowrath]

TeaDidikai

Collowrath

The sacrifice of Christ is opening himself up to other people.

Yeshua didn't say this. Paul did.

xp

Somehow, I get the feeling I'm not in a place to weigh in on the affect of Paul on Christendom in any kind of meaningful way. I can only speak from my own experiences with Christianity, which is largely participation in cultural rituals.

Essentially, I can only really comment meaningfully in "how this is done," and not always from "why this is done." I'm as much trying to find the why as anyone asking here. That's also one of my biggest sources of frustration in my own practice! I can sing the song, but not understand all the words.

Quote:

Quote:

Yes, God is the focus. No, the other Gods are not "of mortals." wink

She means in the purview of mortals.

Bleh. redface What I'm trying to convey is that our Gods lie outside of this, I think. Historically, Double Faith was a complete double belief - both religions were equally professed by the peasant folk. Christ's cult was approached in the same way as Lada's, Perun's, Svaroh's, etc (as far as I can tell). You would apply Christian standards to Christianity, but Perun has his own standards.

On the other hand, you have a more syncretic approach that comes along later and is probably more prevalent in modern times. I'm trying to make it all fit together, but reconciling my own world view with the syncretism can be pretty difficult.

I'm sorry if I'm babbling.  

[TeaDidikai]

Collowrath

TeaDidikai

Collowrath

The sacrifice of Christ is opening himself up to other people.

Yeshua didn't say this. Paul did.

xp

Somehow, I get the feeling I'm not in a place to weigh in on the affect of Paul on Christendom in any kind of meaningful way. I can only speak from my own experiences with Christianity, which is largely participation in cultural rituals.

Essentially, I can only really comment meaningfully in "how this is done," and not always from "why this is done." I'm as much trying to find the why as anyone asking here. That's also one of my biggest sources of frustration in my own practice! I can sing the song, but not understand all the words.

Just in case you're interested, Mat 15:24 addresses Yeshua as being for the lost sheep of Israel.

Quote:

Bleh. redface What I'm trying to convey is that our Gods lie outside of this, I think. Historically, Double Faith was a complete double belief - both religions were equally professed by the peasant folk. Christ's cult was approached in the same way as Lada's, Perun's, Svaroh's, etc (as far as I can tell). You would apply Christian standards to Christianity, but Perun has his own standards.

On the other hand, you have a more syncretic approach that comes along later and is probably more prevalent in modern times. I'm trying to make it all fit together, but reconciling my own world view with the syncretism can be pretty difficult.

I'm sorry if I'm babbling.

A little. wink
Or are we looking at Kathenotheism?  

[Collowrath]

TeaDidikai

Or are we looking at Kathenotheism?

For as much as I can tell - yes.

To put it in perspective:

Monotheism: Christ is the only real god, so I worship him alone.

Polytheism: There are many gods, including Christ, Perun, Morena, and Jarilo, and I worship many of them.

Henotheism: There are many gods, including Christ, Perun, Morena, and Jarilo, but I only worship one. In time, I might worship another.

Often, there is an extension to this: There are many gods, including Christ, Perun, Morena, and Jarilo, but they are all emanations of a single being.

Monolatrist: There are many gods, including Christ, Perun, Morena, and Jarilo, but only Christ deserves worship.

(This seems to be the syncretic viewpoint - once this comes into play, then the previous gods are absorbed into saints, playing on the Catholic distinction between venerating and petitioning saints, and worshiping their God.)

Finally, Kathenotheism: There are many gods, including Christ, Perun, Morena, and Jarilo, and I worship them each individually and separately and distinctly.  

[TeaDidikai]

Collowrath

Often, there is an extension to this: There are many gods, including Christ, Perun, Morena, and Jarilo, but they are all emanations of a single being.

Actually, that's soft polytheism.
And Henotheism is closer to "There's an overarching deity who made the others. The others are how we connect to the Overarching Deity".