Asatru and Germanic Paganism

[saint dreya]

Deoridhe

I struggle with the implications of his relationship with me and what it inspires in me a lot. I tend to like to comfort and love people; he inspires me to unsettle and disturb them. I like to be liked; he inspires me to not care. I would like to be reliable, he reminds me that reliability is a trap. I like pleasure; he reminds me that suffering is integral to knowledge and pleasure.

i find a lot of this in my relationship with Tyr, oddly. not so much the unsettling and disturbing people. definitely the comfort issue as well as what "suffering" can entail in regards to goals.

i think that's integral though to a valued relationship. aside from enjoying the comforts together, getting pushed to find out more, to see one's limits, it makes the whole experience so vivid.

TeaDidikai

Her personal spiritual experiences with him were as a lover/initiator into some pretty deep Runes. Contrast this with the "Respectable Father" figure many Fluffs I have seen paint him as, and you can understand how I was a little shocked. That being said, it rang more true than any of the personal accounts I had heard of him up to that point.

i would have a personal problem approaching him as a lover/initiator or a "Respectable Father" figure...the former if only because of the ramifications of the rumors (don't necessarily know if they're completely true) from Galina Krasskova and her group (Etinmoot? seriously?)  

[TeaDidikai]

saint dreya

i would have a personal problem approaching him as a lover/initiator

To be fair to her, she didn't approach him in any such way. She approached him in general, and that is what he revealed.

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the former if only because of the ramifications of the rumors (don't necessarily know if they're completely true) from Galina Krasskova and her group (Etinmoot? seriously?)

Which rumors?  

[saint dreya]

TeaDidikai

saint dreya

i would have a personal problem approaching him as a lover/initiator

To be fair to her, she didn't approach him in any such way. She approached him in general, and that is what he revealed.

fair enough. possibly the best way to approach any deity; without preconceived notions of how one thinks they should act.

TeaDidikai

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the former if only because of the ramifications of the rumors (don't necessarily know if they're completely true) from Galina Krasskova and her group (Etinmoot? seriously?)

Which rumors?

many of the ordeals i've heard through ADF and Troth members have talked about people submitting themselves to one thing, and along the way having something else sprung on them. such as - sexual acts, intense blood work, etc.

for one, there was a story of a man who was going to dedicate himself to Odin, and agreed to a certain ordeal, which he completed, and then was told during the working that he had to "shallowly" slit his arms (vertical, along the inner forearm) and was tied to a god pole where he was commanded to spread his blood upon it. i don't quite remember how long he was tied to it.

another, a woman was also dedicating herself, had another particular ordeal set up, and during the ritual, she was told she would then need to be fisted to complete the ritual. the implication was that she either wasn't in a state to consent, particularly with pressure that she couldn't do or be something without the ritual, or she pretty much said no.

aside from the twitchiness i get from the concept that they have a festival to celebrate the beings that actively pursue the destruction of the Aesir, but also in that they spring without permission acts that should have prior knowledge or at least understanding of the consequences. all too many of the rumors deal with sex and related acts, with the insistence that in order to "belong" and be devoted to Odin, they have to complete them.  

[TeaDidikai]

saint dreya

fair enough. possibly the best way to approach any deity; without preconceived notions of how one thinks they should act.

Usually my take on it.

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many of the ordeals i've heard through ADF and Troth members have talked about people submitting themselves to one thing, and along the way having something else sprung on them. such as - sexual acts, intense blood work, etc.

for one, there was a story of a man who was going to dedicate himself to Odin, and agreed to a certain ordeal, which he completed, and then was told during the working that he had to "shallowly" slit his arms (vertical, along the inner forearm) and was tied to a god pole where he was commanded to spread his blood upon it. i don't quite remember how long he was tied to it.

another, a woman was also dedicating herself, had another particular ordeal set up, and during the ritual, she was told she would then need to be fisted to complete the ritual. the implication was that she either wasn't in a state to consent, particularly with pressure that she couldn't do or be something without the ritual, or she pretty much said no.

That's some pretty ******** up s**t right there.

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aside from the twitchiness i get from the concept that they have a festival to celebrate the beings that actively pursue the destruction of the Aesir,

That doesn't bother me as much personally.

Let's face it, the Vanatru would be in a similar situation if it weren't for the fact that the AEsir took hostages.  

[saint dreya]

TeaDidikai

That doesn't bother me as much personally.

Let's face it, the Vanatru would be in a similar situation if it weren't for the fact that the AEsir took hostages.

true. granted, it also helps that the hostages seem to have embraced the Aesir as their own; getting pick of the dead along with Odin, probably not too bad.

celebrating Etins still gets my nerves rattled.  

[Deoridhe]

TeaDidikai

Her personal spiritual experiences with him were as a lover/initiator into some pretty deep Runes. Contrast this with the "Respectable Father" figure many Fluffs I have seen paint him as, and you can understand how I was a little shocked. That being said, it rang more true than any of the personal accounts I had heard of him up to that point.

I can see that.

There was a seductive edge to how he approached me after I made the space for it, but it was mostly along the tricking and taking advantage of my naivete.

And I mean, he is called Allfather, but honestly I think he swindled the title so he could get more to drink at parties.  

[TeaDidikai]

saint dreya

true. granted, it also helps that the hostages seem to have embraced the Aesir as their own; getting pick of the dead along with Odin, probably not too bad.

celebrating Etins still gets my nerves rattled.

Sometimes I muse as to what the world would have been like if some political tides had changed and the world had seen millions of Samaritans worshiping on a mountain and a few hundred Jews praying at something called the Western Wall.

Let's face it, depending on how you slice it there are over three different groups of what amounted to tribal pantheons in popular Norse myth.

I think we're seeing a lot of history being written by the victor.

Deoridhe

I can see that.

There was a seductive edge to how he approached me after I made the space for it, but it was mostly along the tricking and taking advantage of my naivete.

I'm reminded of when he bored through the wall and slipped in as a snake in order to get the Mead.

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And I mean, he is called Allfather, but honestly I think he swindled the title so he could get more to drink at parties.

I... can see that actually.  

[Ulfrikr inn Hrafn]

Synnthetika

Ulfrikr inn Hrafn

Heilsan Synnthetika,

All authors have inherent bias, no matter how 'even handed' they attempt to be. I have my bias, and academics and esoterists also have their own. Hence, anything that you'll come up against, will have some form of bias within its structure. That being said, yes, some works are better than others.

I find, on for the most part, scholarly material that has been published more recently, tends to be better in its form and content. That being said, throwing out earlier works is, in my personal opinion, a problem given that they can prove to, whether biased or not, have insights within them which are useful given their relative proximity to the folkways of the time, something which we, for the most part, are lacking.

So basically, newer authors will probably have less biased information, but older authors may have more gems of information?

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I think that if you're going to get your hands on multiple versions of the Poetic Edda, that's probably the better way to handle that one. Yes, earlier translators were working within a Christian worldview, and so applied that to our ancestral Folkways, however, that being said, as long as you understand the inherent bias this causes, you can often pick your way through the works to a sufficient extent, especially if you're using multiple authors, and are able to directly compare their translations.

I personally like the Hollander translation, primarily because it attempts to maintain the poetic form, so that you can actually use it to recite, without having to know the Icelandic pronunciation. Naturally, the best method is to translate the thing yourself, but that is a rather time consuming and fraught process.

Just out of curiosity, how would I go about translating the Eddas myself?

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Also works which deal with the social structure of our ancestral peoples, and the development of their culture is very important, and here you are on much firmer ground insofar as quality of work is concerned. There are a myriad of good books on Scandinavian and Germanic culture which are well researched and scholarly in their foundation. Naturally, this means that the books will cost you more, but I can only say that it's very much worth it.

If you want something truly special, and have the funds to afford it, then you can't go past http://www.randburg.is/is/sagas/ for the Complete Sagas of Icelanders. I spotted it on Amazon for $850 US. I bought a set when they were first published, yes, it was cheaper than that, although I think after postage it cost about the same for me to get here to Australia.

It's something to work towards anyway! It would be absolutely amazing to own.

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Prose and Poetic Eddas are good, and yes the Germania is also a good source. Icelandic Sagas are very useful as well, if you can't afford the Sagas of Icelanders, you can pick up paperback versions of the most common sagas, such as Njalla, etc. Gordon's an Introduction to Old Norse is a good basic learning text for the language. Dictionary of Northern Mythology by Simek is invaluable. Gods of the Ancient Northmen by Dumezil is good. Anything by H. R. Ellis-Davidson is pretty good, although her later work tended to jump of the feminist band-wagon as far as interpreting history was concerned, much like the world Goddess tripe trotted out by Gimbutas and co.

Ver thu heil

I have a couple unrelated questions.

What does Heilsan mean and what does Ver thru heil mean?

Oh, and I've added those books to my Reccomended reading list! Thank you!

Heilsan,

Correct

Self-translation is a rather drawn out process, but it can be done. A good Icelandic to English Dictionary - e.g. Cleasby Vigfusson is a must, and a good concordance, the only one currently is A Concordance of Eddic Poetry by Kellogg. Once again we're talking University Level book, so it isn't cheap. Cleasby Vigfusson you can find online.

Heilsan means quite literally to greet, it comes from the Old Norse root word Heil, which equates to Hello. There are particular grammatical requirements to which form is used depending on whom you are addressing.

Ver thu heil means literally, be you well, and is related to the Anglo-Saxon Wassail.

You are most welcome, I can provide information on lots of good books which you might want to get your hands on, but they ain't cheap LOL smile

Ver thu heil  

[Ulfrikr inn Hrafn]

Deoridhe

I'm more runes that Seidhr; I'm not sure the pathwalking I do counts as Seidhr. If I ever reach the point where I can ask Odin and/or Freya and trust the answer, I'lllet you guys know.

In regards to Odin and honor... you can trust him to act in what he thinks are the best interests for the world and the people he is connected with who he wants to see prosper. That is not honorable in the conventional sense. Tyr or Thor might be more reliable. My experience with Frigga is she has her own powerful sense of integrity; at the moment she's the god I'm courting the most. *eyes her semi-clean apartment* Speaking of, I should do the dishes.

Ulfrikr is a superior mentor and a much better Loresman than I. I'm more experiential and impulse-driven. This might explain why I'm as close to Odin as I am, and it might be a side effect of dedicating myself to him.

The best basis for exploring is learn what you can, find people whose advice and opinions you value, and trust and share your impulses. Try to balance letting yourself be taken over by the knowledge with keeping your bearings in society. We're remaking a religion here; we need to rethink the world to accomplish that, and that will not be easy.

And welcome. ^__^

Heilsan Allir,

Honour seems to be a bit of a hang-up for moderns when speaking of Odhinn. No, his manner and activities don't meet the concept of honourable conduct within the context of what we consider to be honour, but then, even those whom originated modern Asatru and Odinism seem to have viewed it outside our ancestral cultural context.

The Nine Noble Virtues give Honour as one of the nine, which is in and of itself a misnomer, and go on to state in one form "Honour is the feeling of inner value and worth from which one knows that one is noble of being, and the desire to show respect for this quality when it is found in the world. Of all the Virtues, this one is often the hardest to define, as each person's interpretation of this is different. It could translate as "self-image", or "self-esteem", and is important to recognise that this will be different from person to person."

Actually, honourable conduct is within the context of all the other 'virtues', in essence honour is a set of culturally defined behaviours, and these change from culture to culture, and indeed can change over time. So, whether or not Odhinn follows a code of honour is in fact an incorrect assessment, it should be, does Odhinn follow a code of honour with which we can live? That's the question one whom wishes a relationship with the Old Man should be asking themselves.

The notion of Odhinn as some father figure, is derived from the term Alfaðir, which tends to be literally translated as All Father. The problem with this is that it in fact refers to his position within the cosmology that he is the lead role in the creation mythos, rather than being anything like the 'daddy' concept which seems to be created in the mind of many of the 'nicey, nicey' branch of Paganism.

Deoridhe has the right of it to a degree, but I suspect that she is younger than I, and I can relate well to the younger energy when one is linked to Odhinn. Now I am in the transition phase of my life, from young man, through to Elder, I find that my views have changed. Yes, Odhinn is still the edge, there can be no doubt of that, but within that context there is so very much more, and it not until one has dealt with the Old Man for some time, and indeed gains some age oneself that his viewpoint can be understood. Each point of ones life, one learns something new of the Old Man.

I myself wear the Valknutr. Some think it strange that a man with children and family would do so, for if one understands the implications of the symbol and its attachment with Odhinn, and the specific link that it signifies, one would expect that it would be tied to those whom walk alone or in similar company. And yet, the lesson I have learned is that the groups whom dedicate themselves to Odhinn, tend to feed upon one another, and that it is those whom work with community tend to fulfil their roles better within the Odhinnic paradigm, for Odhinn himself, whilst at times he works alone, and at the fringes, at the end of the day he is a vital part of the community of the Aesir.

Ver thu heil  

[Ulfrikr inn Hrafn]

saint dreya

TeaDidikai

saint dreya

i would have a personal problem approaching him as a lover/initiator

To be fair to her, she didn't approach him in any such way. She approached him in general, and that is what he revealed.

fair enough. possibly the best way to approach any deity; without preconceived notions of how one thinks they should act.

TeaDidikai

Quote:

the former if only because of the ramifications of the rumors (don't necessarily know if they're completely true) from Galina Krasskova and her group (Etinmoot? seriously?)

Which rumors?

many of the ordeals i've heard through ADF and Troth members have talked about people submitting themselves to one thing, and along the way having something else sprung on them. such as - sexual acts, intense blood work, etc.

for one, there was a story of a man who was going to dedicate himself to Odin, and agreed to a certain ordeal, which he completed, and then was told during the working that he had to "shallowly" slit his arms (vertical, along the inner forearm) and was tied to a god pole where he was commanded to spread his blood upon it. i don't quite remember how long he was tied to it.

another, a woman was also dedicating herself, had another particular ordeal set up, and during the ritual, she was told she would then need to be fisted to complete the ritual. the implication was that she either wasn't in a state to consent, particularly with pressure that she couldn't do or be something without the ritual, or she pretty much said no.

aside from the twitchiness i get from the concept that they have a festival to celebrate the beings that actively pursue the destruction of the Aesir, but also in that they spring without permission acts that should have prior knowledge or at least understanding of the consequences. all too many of the rumors deal with sex and related acts, with the insistence that in order to "belong" and be devoted to Odin, they have to complete them.

Heilsan,

Firstly, I have read a bit of Krassova's stuff, and frankly, most of it made me want to throw the book into the recycling, or fire. But, I still have it, if only as a reference if I need to stand up and give direct examples of things that I have issue with.

As to the ordeals, frankly, that's just masochism. If someone would like to inform me of where there are specific references to initiatory processes into an Odhinnic cult, be my guest, otherwise, it's all UPG, and to spring something on someone, well, suffice it to say, they'd find themselves as offerings to Odhinn ala Starkhad.

One of my big issues is that it seems that the Giants are continually considered to be the enemies of the Gods and Goddesses, it is written in our lore that our Gods and Goddesses have been aided, and indeed have married Giants, so for everyone to assume that all Giants are out to get us and the Aesir/Vanir is poor generalisation ala generic Viking Mythology books. Anyone whom knows our ancestral traditions should know much better.

Ver thu heil  

[Ulfrikr inn Hrafn]

TeaDidikai

saint dreya

fair enough. possibly the best way to approach any deity; without preconceived notions of how one thinks they should act.

Usually my take on it.

Quote:

many of the ordeals i've heard through ADF and Troth members have talked about people submitting themselves to one thing, and along the way having something else sprung on them. such as - sexual acts, intense blood work, etc.

for one, there was a story of a man who was going to dedicate himself to Odin, and agreed to a certain ordeal, which he completed, and then was told during the working that he had to "shallowly" slit his arms (vertical, along the inner forearm) and was tied to a god pole where he was commanded to spread his blood upon it. i don't quite remember how long he was tied to it.

another, a woman was also dedicating herself, had another particular ordeal set up, and during the ritual, she was told she would then need to be fisted to complete the ritual. the implication was that she either wasn't in a state to consent, particularly with pressure that she couldn't do or be something without the ritual, or she pretty much said no.

That's some pretty ******** up s**t right there.

Quote:

aside from the twitchiness i get from the concept that they have a festival to celebrate the beings that actively pursue the destruction of the Aesir,

That doesn't bother me as much personally.

Let's face it, the Vanatru would be in a similar situation if it weren't for the fact that the AEsir took hostages.

Heilsan Tea,

There was an exchange of hostages, which is a very common practice in the Germanic traditions, so much so that it seems to have been specifically mentioned in a few annals and other locations by outside parties. Indeed, one text I am reading at the moment mentions that trade would only take place once hostages had been exchanged. So, essentially it is a surety and lets face it, neither side was winning the war, even though the Aesir started proceedings. Although there is a lot of metaphor running through the whole episode too.

Ver thu heil  

[Deoridhe]

Ulfrikr inn Hrafn

Deoridhe has the right of it to a degree, but I suspect that she is younger than I, and I can relate well to the younger energy when one is linked to Odhinn. Now I am in the transition phase of my life, from young man, through to Elder, I find that my views have changed. Yes, Odhinn is still the edge, there can be no doubt of that, but within that context there is so very much more, and it not until one has dealt with the Old Man for some time, and indeed gains some age oneself that his viewpoint can be understood. Each point of ones life, one learns something new of the Old Man.

That may explain a lot.

I think this also brings up an important point of moving into relating to a pantheon and a religion which centralizes personal experience because we haven't hit the tipping point of UPG into Lore yet (and probably won't for a while). People can, do, and will have very different experiences of different gods and that does not imply any of those experiences are necessarily false. In fact, it is in honoring both the commonalities and the differences between us that we'll have a vibrant, living religion.  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

Ulfrikr inn Hrafn

Firstly, I have read a bit of Krassova's stuff, and frankly, most of it made me want to throw the book into the recycling, or fire. But, I still have it, if only as a reference if I need to stand up and give direct examples of things that I have issue with.

I'd be interested in hearing what you have issue with. If you don't mind discussing it.

I read Krasskova's book a while ago and while I enjoyed some parts of it, there was a good amount of things that made me go "WTF?" Like...I felt like she tried to assign every god as a healer or a shamanic-type (or both! ).  

[Synnthetika]

Well, at least I'm not the only one who feels a little uneasy around Odin. I thought it was a character flaw of mine; something that was preventing me from being complete or open with the Gods. That doesn't mean I'm not going to keep working on letting myself be more comfortable with Odin, or at least working out a mutual agreement.

What about Odinic sacrifice? Does it happen now? What does it entail? What did it entail in the era of our ancestors?  

[godhi]

Deoridhe

saint dreya

thank you. that was what i was trying to express.

Part of the struggle is that it flies in the face of how most people relate to most gods, up to and including Odin when approaching him as Alfather. Mistrust is not considered ....normal, or even respectful. However, when relating to Odin personally, mistrust is sensible and emotionally congruent. A lot of people struggle with loving someone but not trusting them as well, and again this is something which is possible but not easy.

And when the chips are down, part of my relationship with him is I will let him use me for his ends; I'll just try to get what I want at the same time.

But it's not a comfortable relationship.

I struggle with the implications of his relationship with me and what it inspires in me a lot. I tend to like to comfort and love people; he inspires me to unsettle and disturb them. I like to be liked; he inspires me to not care. I would like to be reliable, he reminds me that reliability is a trap. I like pleasure; he reminds me that suffering is integral to knowledge and pleasure.

One of the problems I've discovered when dealing with Odin is that the Allfather wears many masks, and when contacting him in dreams and visions you never know what aspect the Allfather will choose to manifest; for example, I've encountered him as the traditional god-king from the Norse myths, a scarred and grizzled one-eyed warrior, a tribal shaman, and even as an early 20th century stage magician! To further complicate matters, Odin often changes his personality in accordance with the mask that he wears: in his traditional aspect of the Allfather, Odin speaks in riddles and kennings while as an early 20th century stage magician, the Allfather responded by answering each question with another question.
Although Odin frightens me with the extent of his knowledge and power, I've never had any problems dealing with him. Maybe this is because I've always had a close relationship with Odin and Freyja, and tend to view them almost the way I would revere and respect my family elders; of course, since the Aesir and Vanir have mixed their blood with humanity, in a way they are my ancestors!
I should mention that I've never had a very good relationship with Tyr. Maybe my connection to Odin makes it difficult to connect with him, but Tyr has always been cold and distant with me. On the other hand, Loki is always offering to change my luck--but as the trickster, his offers of help always come at a cost to my sanity and sense of well-being.
I won't talk about my relationship with his daughter. sweatdrop