Dumbledore's Horocrux?

[flying_wings]

I got the base of this theory from a Mugglenet editorial.
I think that it's the building up of hatred, the innate desire to kill and hurt others is how the soul starts to split. To sum it up; it's the motives of hatred, violence, the desire to hurt, maim, destroy, annihilate, torture, and break for murdering another person premeditatively. From that the soul splits and the line is crossed in the mental boundary that represents the lengths of revenge.  

[Aci Dixinic]

flying_wings

I got the base of this theory from a Mugglenet editorial.
I think that it's the building up of hatred, the innate desire to kill and hurt others is how the soul starts to split. To sum it up; it's the motives of hatred, violence, the desire to hurt, maim, destroy, annihilate, torture, and break for murdering another person premeditatively. From that the soul splits and the line is crossed in the mental boundary that represents the lengths of revenge.

If that was the case then Harry's soul would no longer be "untarnished and whole" now would it?
Even though Harry could barely even perform the Cruciatus Curse on Bellatrix, the explanation she gave for his failure (basically that he wasn't sadistic enough) could still allow for a desire to kill in him. He just didn't necessarily want to cause pain, he wasn't that twisted. And maybe he just wasn't angry enough at her right at that moment to torture her.
We have seen him in murderous rages before, haven't we? I'm sure he thinks about killing Snape, after Dumbledore's murder. That doesn't necessarily mean he will. The desire to killl just can't be enough, because even if someone goes out with the intent to kill, they can still change. Motive alone wouldn't tear a soul.

I think it may be the same as with the unicorn in Philosopher's Stone. The act of murdering the unicorn didn't necessarily curse Voldemort and Quirrel, it was the drinking of the blood. The sealing of the deal, the point that once you've gone past you can't come back to, was the drinking of the innocent animal's blood to save your own life.

Likewise I think the making of a Horcrux seals your fate. Tears a piece of soul from your body. It shows that you have killed for your own gain, nothing else, you have placed your life above someone elses and taken theirs with no repentance.

Because I think otherwise a torn soul can heal with repentance.
Perhaps not to the "untarnished and whole" state it was in before the murder, but if it was an accident, if it was necessary to save your life and/or others' lives, or if it was murder but you truly, sincerely repent, then I don't seriously think that your soul is going to stay in little pieces, is it? You'll heal. In the latter case there is a faint question mark hanging over it, but for the others it shouldn't be any other way.  

[Aci Dixinic]

And I'm still waiting for someone to tackle my "Dumbledore is a murderer" debate.
Ernie? Ex Professor? Reg? I_heart_ron? flying_wings? Somebody?...  

[flying_wings]

Ok, school is over!!! I know how you feel. I love it when someone responds to a post.

I'm just saying those emotions are the threshold of murdering someone in cold blood. The choice to murder the person will then cause the soul to split, but not accidental murder.

I think that your unicorn blood/horcrux comparison is right. I also think that if you murder the person accidently or without planning the whole thing out; with time and sincere repentance the soul might heal.  

[Aci Dixinic]

flying_wings

Ok, school is over!!! I know how you feel. I love it when someone responds to a post.

I'm just saying those emotions are the threshold of murdering someone in cold blood. The choice to murder the person will then cause the soul to split, but not accidental murder.

I think that your unicorn blood/horcrux comparison is right. I also think that if you murder the person accidently or without planning the whole thing out; with time and sincere repentance the soul might heal.

School is over? Where? *Looks around wildly for the place where school is over* We still have at least five weeks left until the summer holidays. They give us about six weeks off over Christmas.  

[flying_wings]

I meant that I came home from school, so school was over. Orthodontists aren't very fun to go to.

I don't think that Dumbledore has a Horcrux mainly because of his character. Although it's entirely posible that in the previous 140 something years in which we don't know much about Dumbledore. I think due to that positively huge span of time, it's entirely possible since certain choices may not have been made.  

[Aci Dixinic]

flying_wings

I meant that I came home from school, so school was over. Orthodontists aren't very fun to go to.

I don't think that Dumbledore has a Horcrux mainly because of his character. Although it's entirely posible that in the previous 140 something years in which we don't know much about Dumbledore. I think due to that positively huge span of time, it's entirely possible since certain choices may not have been made.

Exactly. My point exactly.
However, I really want someone to properly debate with me on Dumbledore being a murderer...Come on, I gave you a huge hint! Hitler comitted suicide in 1945! The next post has to contain that.  

[flying_wings]

Yeah, the 'defeat' of Grindewald. Right? Like Harry 'defeated' Voldemort and everyone who didn't have Order/DE association didn't have a clue that he was back. Suggesting that 'defeated' could be a gentler substitute for killed.

Well, Grindewald was 'defeated' in 1945, the end of the Muggle WWII.
This suggests a Grindewald/Hitler alliance. Especially since Hitler commited
suicide and the tidbit about wizard and muggle wars feeding off each other. Although Grindewald could have been Hitler, like metamorphagus or transfiguration or Polyjuice.

Although my theorizing depends on one huge assumption: that we're using the same world leaders. I'm just pointing out this weakness mostly because the days of the week aren't coordinated with a real calendar.  

[i_heart_ron]

acidic cynic; I'm STILL stumped on the '45 reference, even knowing about the Grindelwald thing and possessing massive amounts of useless WWII knowledge (his name means something kinda gross in german, fyi) unless you're implying that Dumbledore "defeated" him by somehow compelling him to "self-destruct," in a manner of speaking....

my favorite (terribly unlikely, probably recently debunked) Grindelwald theory is that the Transfiguration professor turned him into Peeves. Now we know that Peevees came with the castle and is unroutable, but it doesn't eliminate transfiguration as something to look at?  

[Aci Dixinic]

All right, all right. I'll explain.

J.K.Rowling has said that wizarding and muggle wars have certain parallels. My theory relies on parallels between not only the wars, but the leaders of those wars.
Now, Hitler committed suicide after the defeat of his army. He was beaten, because he had no followers, and his followers were what he relied on to get to, and stay in, power. And so no one actually killed him. His blood is on no one's hands.

Now, Grindelwald, we can safely assume, also relied heavily on followers, because no tyrant is a tyrant without someone to tyrannise (word?). We saw this with Voldemort, when all his followers thought him dead, and he was next to nothing. In the end, it took followers (Quirrel, Peter, Crouch Jnr) to bring him back to power.
So Grindelwald has followers. They are defeated. (Lets just leave out the possibility of a Grin/Hit alliance for now). It is entirely possible that they are defeated by Dumbledore, with the help of an early Order of the Phoenix, assuming that the Order was created to fight the Dark Arts and not Voldemort specifically.
So Dumbledore defeats Grindelwald's followers, he corners him, he has him pinned, perhaps ready to bring him in for a fair and legal trial.
Just like what the Alliance did to Hitler.
And Hitler killed himself.
Yet we still refer to the "Defeat of Hitler" by the Allies.
The wizarding world refers to the "Defeat of Grindelwald" by Dumbledore.

Based on this, I believe that Grindelwald and Hitler both committed suicide, for much the same reasons. They were defeated.
Dumbledore has no blood on his hands, because he never killed Grindelwald, only "defeated" him.
And if Grindelwald hadn't killed himself, then Dumbledore still wouldn't be guilty of anything, because he would have brought him in for a fair trial, which is the custom in the wizarding world, judging from the controversy of Crouch's not giving fair trials and authorising the use of Unforgivables on suspects, years later.

Thus "Hitler committed suicide in 1945".
I'm sorry if it was confusing because it was so blatant. I know I get pissed off when a teacher sets us some simple question with an air of mystery or whatever, and you think it must be a trick question, but then it turns out the obvious answer was right all along. They'd just fooled you with their attitude.
So I'm sorry if I did that to anyone.  

[youxonlyxwish]

even if he knew about horcruxes I don't think it would matter. when voldy was "finished" by Harry he didn't die, but did lose his body. When Dumbledore died, Harry was released from his curse that was put on by DUmbledore because the spellcaster died. And Hagrid actually had Dumbledore in his arms at the funeral. I hate to think it, but I really think Dumbledore is actually dead. It's a twist that leaves Harry further unprotected, letting us find out what he can really do when left alone. And Dumbledore can still help, his portrait is after all in McGonagall's office. And the other portraits have knowledge about what happened before they died. So he should still be able to help.  

[flying_wings]

*I like grammar*
It would matter mainly because protraits aren't the person fully, it's kind of an essence of their main personailty traits. The other portraits probably have knowledge accumulated from being in the headmaster's office.

A Grindewald/Voldemort alliance would be impossible since he'd still be in Hogwarts.

So you're saying that Grindewald commited suicide because he lost all of his followers. Following the assumption of world leaders, Hitler would be a muggle. Grindewald is a Dark Wizard who probably has similar principals to Voldemort. Voldemort, I think, dislikes dying like a muggle; so why would Grindewald commit suicide like his muggle counterpart?  

[Aci Dixinic]

flying_wings

A Grindewald/Voldemort alliance would be impossible since he'd still be in Hogwarts.

Ah yes, that was a typo. I meant a Grin/Hit alliance. *Goes back to edit post*

flying_wings

So you're saying that Grindewald commited suicide because he lost all of his followers.

No, I'm saying he committed suicide because he was defeated, and he was defeated because he lost his followers. (Note: we are still in the realm of theory, not canon).

flying_wings

Following the assumption of world leaders, Hitler would be a muggle. Grindewald is a Dark Wizard who probably has similar principals to Voldemort. Voldemort, I think, dislikes dying like a muggle; so why would Grindewald commit suicide like his muggle counterpart?

I don't think that Grindelwald was like Voldemort in that sense. Voldemort's fear of death is a trait which, while shared by many, is not necessarily a symptom of being 'bad". So not all Dark Lords have to be scared of death.
Grindelwald could very well have killed himself in a spectacularly magical way, thereby eliminating the "dislikes dying like a muggle" argument.
Tyrants and other "bad" people have many different reasons for being as they are and doing what they do. So Grindelwald committing suicide is a distinct possibility, despite Voldemort's feelings.  

[flying_wings]

Ok. Voldemort and Grindewald are two different Dark Wizards. We don't know a lot about Grindewald besides he was probably part of WWII and was 'defeated' by Albus P.W.B. Dumbledore. We know that defeated could mean suicide or murder.

We think that he might have commited suicide because Hitler commited suicide. Wizard and muggle wars fuel and play off of each other, so a common flaw could have brought both German forces to their knees. It could possibly due to the fact that he lost all of his followers for various reasons; so he commited suicide in response to this development.
-This is clarifying for me, to summarize what's up so far-

If Grindewald commited suicide in a showy way, then wouldn't it be considered suicide and not 'defeated by Albus Dumbledore'?

A question that could be brought up by this is that was there an Axis of wizards and witches? Like a wizarding counterpart for Japan, Italy, and Germany(Grindewald) similar to the Minister of Magic. Would this include introducing themselves to the dictator of the day?  

[Aci Dixinic]

flying_wings

If Grindewald commited suicide in a showy way, then wouldn't it be considered suicide and not 'defeated by Albus Dumbledore'?

Not necessarily in a showy way. Just magical. That "spectacularly" I put doesn't really fit.
Obviously magical, then.

flying_wings

A question that could be brought up by this is that was there an Axis of wizards and witches? Like a wizarding counterpart for Japan, Italy, and Germany(Grindewald) similar to the Minister of Magic. Would this include introducing themselves to the dictator of the day?

Do you mean the way Fudge introduced himself to the British Prime Minister? It would most likely depend on that country's Ministry, and the dictator.
For example, I highly doubt that any Ministers introduced themselves to Hitler, because if he was aware of it's existence

1) he might try to use magic to his advantage or
2) he might try to wipe all magic off the face of the earth.

And although we know there is a Bulgarian Minister for Magic (we saw him at the World Cup in GoF), there might not be a Ministry of Magic in every country.