God of just the Earth?

[Lazarus The Resurected]

`apple dumpling

Lazarus The Resurected

Fushigi na Butterfly

I'm pretty sure God did subject Himself to the natural when He stepped down into our world.

you do realize that Jesus was more like the personification of God's will than the incarnation of God Himself right? I mean he actualy says that he is not God, but a teacher.

Now I'm curious. May I have a verse?

It will take me a while to dig it up (i have to blow the dust off my bible, and read four gospel's) but i'll get one to you.  

[`apple dumpling]

Lazarus The Resurected

`apple dumpling

Lazarus The Resurected

Fushigi na Butterfly

I'm pretty sure God did subject Himself to the natural when He stepped down into our world.

you do realize that Jesus was more like the personification of God's will than the incarnation of God Himself right? I mean he actualy says that he is not God, but a teacher.

Now I'm curious. May I have a verse?

It will take me a while to dig it up (i have to blow the dust off my bible, and read four gospel's) but i'll get one to you.

No worries. It's been a while since I've read through all four Gospels, so I'm just curious to look at that verse. I've never heard that interpretation until today.  

[Priestley]

`apple dumpling

Priestley

freelance lover

Though, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't God generally referred to as the Lord of Heaven and Earth.

What of Satan's domain? Doesn't the current system of things belong to him?

The thing here is, I don't really believe in Satan or his domain in the traditional Christian way. I see Satan more as a general personification of the evil in the world which is generally caused by people's abuse of free will.

As to where "hell" is for lack of a better term, I honestly haven't given it much thought. Maybe they really do live in the center of the earth like in the cartoons, maybe the wander the earth as spirits, maybe they cease to exist. I'm more concerned with this life than the next. Though, I will say I believe God is not present wherever "hell" is because I believe that hell is meant for people who reject God. They do not want him in their life, so he sends them somewhere where he will not be present. As to the logistics of that, don't ask me.

I wasn't talking about the afterlife but the current life.

The current system of things (i.e. increasing evil, God-hating, unbelief, etc.) is thought to be a result of Satan being allowed to roam free on the Earth and that God's Kingdom not yet being established (though Jehova's Witnesses seem to believe that Jesus is currently ruling and it is currently being established due to the "weeks of years" theory). There is also speculation as to what God's Kingdom is.

`apple dumpling

I do believe that if God so wished to subject himself to natural laws he could very well do so. As Fushigi said, he did so with Jesus, but then you said you don't see Jesus as God, so that point is kind of null and void. But that's basically how I view it.

Right, I don't see the Father the same as the Son. That doesn't necessarily mean the point is null and void. It actually makes more sense to me that the Father would remain in heaven while sending His Son into the world, as it's written. It certainly solves the issue Muslims have about the Heaven being Godless at that time and Jesus' apparent struggle with God and his own humanity in situations like the garden of Gethsemane.  

[zz1000zz]

Priestley

I wasn't talking about the afterlife but the current life.

The current system of things (i.e. increasing evil, God-hating, unbelief, etc.) is thought to be a result of Satan being allowed to roam free on the Earth and that God's Kingdom not yet being established (though Jehova's Witnesses seem to believe that Jesus is currently ruling and it is currently being established due to the "weeks of years" theory). There is also speculation as to what God's Kingdom is.

I don't know of any biblical reason to believe Earth is currently under Satan's domain, and there is certainly nothing to suggest evil is increasing in the world.  

[Priestley]

zz1000zz

Priestley

I wasn't talking about the afterlife but the current life.

The current system of things (i.e. increasing evil, God-hating, unbelief, etc.) is thought to be a result of Satan being allowed to roam free on the Earth and that God's Kingdom not yet being established (though Jehova's Witnesses seem to believe that Jesus is currently ruling and it is currently being established due to the "weeks of years" theory). There is also speculation as to what God's Kingdom is.

I don't know of any biblical reason to believe Earth is currently under Satan's domain

This is what is implied by Adam surrendering his authority to Satan in Eden.

zz1000zz

and there is certainly nothing to suggest evil is increasing in the world.

Perhaps, then, it is the increase in awareness of evil things rather than an increase in evil itself. Regardless, it is not the system of God, which would instead be a perfect system.  

[Lazarus The Resurected]

zz1000zz

Priestley

I wasn't talking about the afterlife but the current life.

The current system of things (i.e. increasing evil, God-hating, unbelief, etc.) is thought to be a result of Satan being allowed to roam free on the Earth and that God's Kingdom not yet being established (though Jehova's Witnesses seem to believe that Jesus is currently ruling and it is currently being established due to the "weeks of years" theory). There is also speculation as to what God's Kingdom is.

and there is certainly nothing to suggest evil is increasing in the world.

What about the prevelence of Atheism? or the increasing removal of God in all aspects of life? Or the incease of sin even within the chruch? Or the legalization of gay marriage, state by state. Or the advancement of the religion of Sataism? these things, at least for a Christian perspective would seem to me to be an indication of increasing evil.  

[zz1000zz]

Priestley

zz1000zz

Priestley

I wasn't talking about the afterlife but the current life.

The current system of things (i.e. increasing evil, God-hating, unbelief, etc.) is thought to be a result of Satan being allowed to roam free on the Earth and that God's Kingdom not yet being established (though Jehova's Witnesses seem to believe that Jesus is currently ruling and it is currently being established due to the "weeks of years" theory). There is also speculation as to what God's Kingdom is.

I don't know of any biblical reason to believe Earth is currently under Satan's domain

This is what is implied by Adam surrendering his authority to Satan in Eden.

It is a very bold claim to say the world is currently under Satan's domain, and a single sentence containing only a single reference as a vague explanation could never suffice for it.

Priestly

zz1000zz

and there is certainly nothing to suggest evil is increasing in the world.

Perhaps, then, it is the increase in awareness of evil things rather than an increase in evil itself. Regardless, it is not the system of God, which would instead be a perfect system.

There is no greater awareness of evil now than ever before. People have always been using the exact same argument about evil being more prevalent, without the slightest actual justification.

Moreover, there is nothing to say this system is not the system of God. God made the world in a way that gave humans the chance to fail, so there is nothing to say that failure delivered the system from his hands. God may have preferred a different course of actions happen, but that does not mean this system is not one of God.

Lazarus The Resurected

zz1000zz

and there is certainly nothing to suggest evil is increasing in the world.

What about the prevelence of Atheism? or the increasing removal of God in all aspects of life? Or the incease of sin even within the chruch? Or the legalization of gay marriage, state by state. Or the advancement of the religion of Sataism? these things, at least for a Christian perspective would seem to me to be an indication of increasing evil.

There is no strong evidence Atheism is more prevalent now than "normally." God, in a biblical sense, is not being removed from all aspects of life (or even most) in any way that is atypical. There certainly is no evidence sin is more common now than ever, inside or outside the church. Satanism, in the common modern sense, has nothing to do with Christianity aside from rejecting the existence of God.

In short, nothing is special about the current times. We are still averaging about one genocide per decade, hurricanes are actually at a low level lately, and diseases seem to be keeping in check well enough. People need to get over themselves and realize they aren't special. The world went on before they were born, and odds are it is going to go one well after they die. The rise of the Nazi empire did not bring on Armageddon, so pop culture certainly will not.  

[`apple dumpling]

Priestley

`apple dumpling

Priestley

freelance lover

Though, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't God generally referred to as the Lord of Heaven and Earth.

What of Satan's domain? Doesn't the current system of things belong to him?

The thing here is, I don't really believe in Satan or his domain in the traditional Christian way. I see Satan more as a general personification of the evil in the world which is generally caused by people's abuse of free will.

As to where "hell" is for lack of a better term, I honestly haven't given it much thought. Maybe they really do live in the center of the earth like in the cartoons, maybe the wander the earth as spirits, maybe they cease to exist. I'm more concerned with this life than the next. Though, I will say I believe God is not present wherever "hell" is because I believe that hell is meant for people who reject God. They do not want him in their life, so he sends them somewhere where he will not be present. As to the logistics of that, don't ask me.

I wasn't talking about the afterlife but the current life.

The current system of things (i.e. increasing evil, God-hating, unbelief, etc.) is thought to be a result of Satan being allowed to roam free on the Earth and that God's Kingdom not yet being established (though Jehova's Witnesses seem to believe that Jesus is currently ruling and it is currently being established due to the "weeks of years" theory). There is also speculation as to what God's Kingdom is.

`apple dumpling

I do believe that if God so wished to subject himself to natural laws he could very well do so. As Fushigi said, he did so with Jesus, but then you said you don't see Jesus as God, so that point is kind of null and void. But that's basically how I view it.

Right, I don't see the Father the same as the Son. That doesn't necessarily mean the point is null and void. It actually makes more sense to me that the Father would remain in heaven while sending His Son into the world, as it's written. It certainly solves the issue Muslims have about the Heaven being Godless at that time and Jesus' apparent struggle with God and his own humanity in situations like the garden of Gethsemane.

See, I don't believe Satan has control over the earth, so... there's not really an argument there. And I also don't believe it was Satan in the Garden of Eden so... heh. I think hell is the absence of God, and I see God's presence in my life daily.  

[Lazarus The Resurected]

but if Satan is the name given to the personification of all sins rather than a horned and hooved deity. would you agree that saidf sinful power governs the world??  

[Priestley]

`apple dumpling

See, I don't believe Satan has control over the earth, so... there's not really an argument there.

I was throwing things up for discussion, not presenting a genuine argument.

`apple dumpling

And I also don't believe it was Satan in the Garden of Eden so... heh.

I didn't suggest that Satan was in the garden. It's irrelevant.

`apple dumpling

I think hell is the absence of God, and I see God's presence in my life daily.

I find that interesting. However, no one was talking about the ability to see God's presence or their views of hell, so they're both also irrelevant.  

[zz1000zz]

Lazarus The Resurected

but if Satan is the name given to the personification of all sins rather than a horned and hooved deity. would you agree that saidf sinful power governs the world??

It is not, and I would not.  

[`apple dumpling]

Priestley

`apple dumpling

See, I don't believe Satan has control over the earth, so... there's not really an argument there.

I was throwing things up for discussion, not presenting a genuine argument.

`apple dumpling

And I also don't believe it was Satan in the Garden of Eden so... heh.

I didn't suggest that Satan was in the garden. It's irrelevant.

`apple dumpling

I think hell is the absence of God, and I see God's presence in my life daily.

I find that interesting. However, no one was talking about the ability to see God's presence or their views of hell, so they're both also irrelevant.

I was simply explaining how I felt about the arguments you threw out there, so actually all my points are relevant.

I explained why I believe Satan does not control the world- why it isn't Satan's domain. I believe Satan's domain is hell, and I believe hell is the absence of God. I added the bit about seeing God, because if see God, then he is presence and earth is therefore not Satan's domain.

And I made the comment about the snake in Eden because you had made a comment about Satan being in the Garden of Eden to zz.

@Lazarus: I don't think Satan governs the world. I think he's present, but I don't think he controls it. I think sin is derived out of humans misusing freewill, generally.