An Empty Vessel (under construction)(open for posting)

[Adalyna]

TeaDidikai

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Humans, Plants and Animals I'm guilty of a misstatement. Humans fall under the animals category in my system of beliefs. Beings that inhabit the world have varying amounts of spiritual matter or spiritual presence. It might be possible that humans possess a greater amount of spiritual presence than most, if not all other species of animals, but I'm equally open to the idea that other species may contain a great deal of spiritual presence. I do not believe spiritual presence is equal to consciousness, but do admit, I find it hard to imagine, a cockroach having a greater spiritual presence then say, a wolf.

Why?

It's not that it's not possible, just that I can't wrap my mind around the concept of a spiritual cockroach. If my statement suggests its impossible, I just need to re-word it.  

[TeaDidikai]

Asahi Sara

It's not that it's not possible, just that I can't wrap my mind around the concept of a spiritual cockroach. If my statement suggests its impossible, I just need to re-word it.

You didn't suggest it was impossible. What I am questioning is why it's hard for you to understand.  

[Adalyna]

TeaDidikai

Asahi Sara

It's not that it's not possible, just that I can't wrap my mind around the concept of a spiritual cockroach. If my statement suggests its impossible, I just need to re-word it.

You didn't suggest it was impossible. What I am questioning is why it's hard for you to understand.

Honestly, maybe I haven't given it enough thought. perhaps I am equating consciousness and physical size into spiritual presence. I can easily see a great redwood as having a powerful spiritual presence, and this may or may not be accurate, but I'm judging it by the sense of awe that I get from a redwood. In a similar context, my sense of disgust with cockroaches probably makes me see them as lesser beings, I'd like to give profound reasons for this, but unless I'm ready to actively relate spiritual presence to my feelings, It's best to keep in mind, my minds biases are a major obstacle in figuring things out.  

[TeaDidikai]

Would you say that it's a function of psychological projection?  

[Adalyna]

TeaDidikai

Would you say that it's a function of psychological projection?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
If this article is accurate, then I would say not exactly, at least not the way I understood it, but I'm not exactly sure what you meant to be perfectly honest.  

[TeaDidikai]

I meant to suggest that rather than contemplating the nature of such creatures- you're allowing your base emotional reactions to them dictate their nature in your paradigm.

Does that make more sense?  

[Adalyna]

TeaDidikai

I meant to suggest that rather than contemplating the nature of such creatures- you're allowing your base emotional reactions to them dictate their nature in your paradigm.

Does that make more sense?

Yes it does, and yes, which is why I try not to regard those sentiments as relevant. They do get in the way however, and are hard to ignore completely. So in regards to your initial question, yeah that's exactly a problem I'm having with myself, in a lot of aspects really.  

[TeaDidikai]

Well, being aware is the first step. 3nodding  

[Adalyna]

I need to update this, my ideas have been changing so much and i've only read so little. I imagine the more research I do the the more that will happen, and Its getting hard to collect my thoughts when they are changing so much.

I will say this though, and I'll post it in the initial posts later: I've decided to focus my research on the practice of magic, rather than on one specific paradigm or another. This is because through magic, I believe I can get results, and through results, beliefs. There's more to it than that though. Perhaps its something internalized I am not wanting to admit to myself. I've always been drawn to magic, the idea, the word, maybe its something I just have a personal attraction to. Perhaps I don't need a deeper reason than that. Perhaps researching, and later practicing magic because I want to, or because I feel its satisfying in some way, is enough of a reason. This is a morbidly daunting task, and I'm painfully aware of that. Magic is used in a variety of traditions, and is often contextually very different. I know I can do this in a way that is ethical, and respectful of cultures, but it will be difficult. For now I'll finish the book Nuri recommended, and I'll probably go to the some of the sources of inspiration it claims to draw from. Unfortunately the writer of this book is a member of the Feri Tradition, which is initiatory, and I will only ever benefit from what is open to outsiders. I imagine this problem is going to come up repeatedly in my research. Sorry for using this thread like a journal, people. Perhaps I should be posting this somewhere else? I do more than welcome suggestions on where to go next in regards to practice and research however.  

[TeaDidikai]

Asahi Sara

I've decided to focus my research on the practice of magic, rather than on one specific paradigm or another. This is because through magic, I believe I can get results, and through results, beliefs.

This is an intensely difficult and potentially dangerous proposition.

I say this because results can be deceiving.
If I say 2 [] 2= 4, there are a couple of things I can put in that box and I'll get an accurate result, but that doesn't mean that we'll have learned what is best suited to the situation. In this case, the situation is your path.

Magical systems are numerous. Some of them conflict with others. Many of them don't. But magic itself doesn't lead to tradition because the number of people who practice numerous magical styles is greater than I can shake a stick at.

CuAnnan, Deoridhe, Fiddler's Green and myself are examples of this.

While it is possible that some element of magical practice would lend you gnosis, how constructive that gnosis would be is a long shot guess at best.

I do appreciate your honesty below however.

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There's more to it than that though. Perhaps its something internalized I am not wanting to admit to myself. I've always been drawn to magic, the idea, the word, maybe its something I just have a personal attraction to. Perhaps I don't need a deeper reason than that. Perhaps researching, and later practicing magic because I want to, or because I feel its satisfying in some way, is enough of a reason.

The question I would pose is "What is attractive about it"?

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Sorry for using this thread like a journal, people. Perhaps I should be posting this somewhere else? I do more than welcome suggestions on where to go next in regards to practice and research however.

I think this is the perfect place to post it. If nothing else, some folks who can remember what their seeking was like better than I might have other insights for you.  

[Adalyna]

TeaDidikai

Asahi Sara

I've decided to focus my research on the practice of magic, rather than on one specific paradigm or another. This is because through magic, I believe I can get results, and through results, beliefs.

This is an intensely difficult and potentially dangerous proposition.

I say this because results can be deceiving.
If I say 2 [] 2= 4, there are a couple of things I can put in that box and I'll get an accurate result, but that doesn't mean that we'll have learned what is best suited to the situation. In this case, the situation is your path.

Magical systems are numerous. Some of them conflict with others. Many of them don't. But magic itself doesn't lead to tradition because the number of people who practice numerous magical styles is greater than I can shake a stick at.

CuAnnan, Deoridhe, Fiddler's Green and myself are examples of this.

While it is possible that some element of magical practice would lend you gnosis, how constructive that gnosis would be is a long shot guess at best.

I do appreciate your honesty below however.

What I meant wasn't that I'd lead to an exact tradition through the use of magic alone. In all honesty, I'm not sure I ever will find a one tradition really. What I do mean is that by making comparisons between paradigms of magic, and ideas as to what exactly magic is, in terms of a force of, or beyond nature, or outside of nature, or of my own imagination, whichever of which it may be. In comparing these ideas I may be able to formulate a more substantiated opinion for myself of what magic is or is not. Even that said, I know I won't find a direct answer and I mean not to jump to conclusions, but I will have some better basis to form my beliefs on, than just shooting from the hip, which is basically what some of what is presented here is based on, the rest, more or less in all honesty, inspired by fantasy and fiction. In addition, the exposure I will get to different paradigms and belief systems may lead me to a tradition I feel a deep connection with, (if it hasn't already) more on that later.

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There's more to it than that though. Perhaps its something internalized I am not wanting to admit to myself. I've always been drawn to magic, the idea, the word, maybe its something I just have a personal attraction to. Perhaps I don't need a deeper reason than that. Perhaps researching, and later practicing magic because I want to, or because I feel its satisfying in some way, is enough of a reason.

The question I would pose is "What is attractive about it"?

A difficult question to be sure. I've been asking myself this almost daily since I saw this here, and I've been reluctant to respond because I don't really have an answer yet. One answer I wanted to give, was that if there was some energy or spiritual power out there, that I'd want to touch it and reach out to it and be a part of it, but that just sounds cheesy, coming from me, for some reason, and even if its true, its certainly not a complete answer.


At one point, I thought "I'm afraid of dying because I am afraid all things are meaningless" I guess I'm still afraid of dying, I'm not one of the types that think I have nothing to fear from death... but not the same any more

so is it just that, without spirits, souls, or anything deeper than flesh and biology? But I asked myself after reading that thread about atheistic witches, if I'd still be interested in magic for the sake of psychodrama and honestly the answer is yes, though to a lesser degree. If nothing else maybe its the idea of the illusion of metaphysical that excites me if nothing more.

but magic, while metaphysical in nature or at least seemingly so, does not prove living things have souls, whether it works or not... yet the world seems more interesting to me, as a place with magic in it. I loathe the mundane, the limits of the physical world as though there is nothing beyond we can see feel or hear... but what if upon discovering magic I then discovery its limitations, and for arguments sake would I lose interest in magic because I can now understand its breadth in the physical world? if the mystery is lost to me would it still excite me? That I cannot really answer... perhaps my answer is there, in the lack of an answer. Is it the mystery that draws it to me?

I sometimes act as though I intend to solve the mystery of magic, hoping to gain some firmer belief in the soul, or in something. To break the mirror that hides the secrets of the universe and know everything, or make a crack in it and at least unveil this mystery. But to approach magic as a science, to try to understand what forces of nature or beyond it are at work, is probably a lie coming from me. If I'm a scientist where is my passion for biology, chemistry, or physics. It doesn't exist because the core concepts behind each are within the mundane, the explainable, the fleeting between life and death. I think it is the mystery of magic that draws me finally, but there is more.

I love doing energy work, I love the feeling of energy flowing through my body, real or perceived. I feel like interacting with energy connects me with all things on a deeper level, so perhaps there is more just in that...

and the idea of touching upon other realms, those of gods, of spirits, of course those of faeries... the idea of exploring the vastness of the universe with my soul... a mystery that can unravel other mysteries... I've always found the ideas of worlds beyond my own to be enticing...

I'm sorry for ruminating like this. I've still not answered your question. Perhaps after I've explored the matter through research practice, and soul searching, I'll have a real answer, for this thread, for myself, really. The long and the short of it is I don't really know what one thing draws me to magic, anything in this list could be an answer and none of them are THE answer.

Maybe in some long forgotten demesne of my Freudian subconscious it really is just a craving for power, or for some romanticized self-image as a witch or a sorceress, or some other shallow reason I've failed to admit to myself.  

[Adalyna]

update on my faerie stuff. I'll update the other parts another time, when I feel I've matured or gotten braver about my childishness. Thanks everyone.  

[Adalyna]

Ok, I guess i should just ask outright. I tried updating the section hoping someone would respond, but i really do need to get the question off my chest. I've come to the conclusion that my beliefs come more from the modern fairy myth, than from any real tradition or culture. I have said a lot and yet very little about those beliefs partially because I'm afraid of them being written off as childish. But I've nobody else I can ask about this sort of thing other than this guild, and I really want to get this off my chest because cultural honesty, and intellectual honesty ARE important to me.

The main issue is, am I truly entitled to my own beliefs? That may sound strange, but perhaps some of the modern stories come from closed cultures like the irish, albeit probably containing very little actually left from those cultures. But even if don't claim that these ideas are either traditional, nor an accurate representation of these cultures, is it still culture rape, and am I still implying entitlement to cultures that I am not a part of? Is there a balance that allows me to have my beliefs, without being dishonest?

In addition to that I also noted how I tend to refer to some of the thought-forms, or entities I believe in as elves, goblins, or sprites, because to my knowledge these are general and unspecific. Elves or Alfs are found in the Asatruar beliefs, apparently, but they seem to dislike having these elves, compared with fictional elves. I'd rather the opposite, since I wouldn't like to misrepresent their beliefs either (though perhaps, if nothing more than to save myself the humiliation, it's important for me to mention, that my "elves" and my beliefs, are -inspired- by fiction, not taken from, and are still vastly different from a fantasy novel.)

It's been humiliating to bring this up, as some of you may feel my beliefs, are puerile and childish. I've had to push myself to look past that. Not because I do not want to grow and mature in my beliefs but because I need to do so from my own learning, and not someone else's insults. That, and childish though they may be, they are important to me.

I would however, appreciate someone telling me if I'm being culturally dishonest, and if I can fix it, or of the very nature of my beliefs implies entitlement. The latter would be difficult to accept, but I'd rather know than go on in ignorance. This is is for anyone who feels they have wisdom to share to answer.  

[TeaDidikai]

Asahi Sara

I have said a lot and yet very little about those beliefs partially because I'm afraid of them being written off as childish.

You don't need to carry this fear with you. People disagree, but you aren't going to be demeaned for your sincerity unless your sincerity remains unquestioned when others issue challenges.

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But I've nobody else I can ask about this sort of thing other than this guild, and I really want to get this off my chest because cultural honesty, and intellectual honesty ARE important to me.

Just as an FYI, some people welcome PM links with questions. We might not be able to address it in a timely manner, but not everyone reads every post in PathWays either.

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It's been humiliating to bring this up, as some of you may feel my beliefs, are puerile and childish. I've had to push myself to look past that. Not because I do not want to grow and mature in my beliefs but because I need to do so from my own learning, and not someone else's insults. That, and childish though they may be, they are important to me.

This is a safe place for you to explore your path. If anyone insults you in PathWays, please report them to Nuri.

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I would however, appreciate someone telling me if I'm being culturally dishonest, and if I can fix it, or of the very nature of my beliefs implies entitlement. The latter would be difficult to accept, but I'd rather know than go on in ignorance. This is is for anyone who feels they have wisdom to share to answer.

I answered this elsewhere, and I hope you can find a solution if my personal solution is not appropriate for you.  

[Adalyna]

I actually asked this, in my pathways thread, before asking in the main forum, so I never meant to imply that your answers were in anyway unsatisfactory. I didn't mean to rush it or anything but I felt like I should put it somewhere where people were likely to see it sooner, and then if it happens, it happens.