Wicca: my disclaimer and adjoining statement

[TeaDidikai]

maenad nuri

TeaDidikai

maenad nuri

Neither one of you has supported anything beyond your own soundings, and an occasional authority appeal, so both of you should just cool your jets or cite your sources.

Or you can just leave this topic be.
/captain hat

To be fair- it isn't an appeal to authority on my part if by virtue of initiation into a lineaged tradition the High Priestesses I am speaking of are indeed authorities. talk2hand

True, however, since you aren't naming the source, it can come off as "pulling it out of your a**".

Just saying is all.

SLANDER AND LIES!

Can isn't the same as does- and since when is this any different than what the actual lineaged Wica or the rest of the guild does? confused

But in all seriousness. Morgandria and Scorplett, Gardenrain and Alexandrian Priestesses respectively have stated it's nature as an orthopraxic theology enough that it's become common knowledge for this forum.

Granted, he's new- but it's still and established fact.

And to be fair- what I think we're actually seeing here is a CMer who is well versed in CM, but not remotely well versed in Wica, taking other CMer's positions as fact.  

[PrometheanSet]

You know, in the thread this sort of broke off from, I made it a point to cite a source, and even give contact info for that guy.  

[TeaDidikai]

PrometheanSet

You know, in the thread this sort of broke off from, I made it a point to cite a source, and even give contact info for that guy.

The problem is your source is a Thelemite- not a member of the Wica. rolleyes

It's like claiming that Nuri worships Satan and then linking us to John Hagee, saying he'll prove it.

My points however include the following which you have failed to address:

1) While Gardner was indeed in contact with Alester Crowley and while he was very interested in Ceremonial Magic, the tradition of Wica with it's eperiential mysteries, orthopraxic traditions and specific mythology- such as the Decent of the Goddess, is not Thelema.

2) While Ye Bok of Ye Arts Magical was penned by Crowley, that is reason to argue that Crowley was commissioned to write rituals and pieces for Gardner- it is not proof that Wica is a sect of Thelema.

3) While Ye Bok of Ye Arts Magical was clearly influenced by Crowley, it is not the Gardenarian Book of Shadows. In 1953 Doreen Valiente was challenged by Gardner to rewrite the traditions book, and she did, removing much of Crowley's influence because she feared his reputation would taint the cult.

4) Your "research" is limited to what one guy says about what Wica was without, I repeat, WITHOUT considering what lineaged, orthopraxic Wica is.  

[saint dreya]

while i realize bits and pieces have already been challenged, i personally had some problems with this next statement.

PrometheanSet

No, don't go join the OTO. For one, they're a bureaucratic organization that has lost touch with the original intent of its creation. Also, there's a financial commitment to learning from their College/Temple of Thelema. Lets not get into the whole mess of other issues facing these folks - with some of them, I could be sued for publicizing what's going on (but that doesn't stop you from digging around on the internet if you're that interested).

1. i've gone to an OTO meeting. i found it rather enlightening, not being Wiccan or part of any other initiated grouping. while the whole ritual wasn't quite what i expected, there was still one part that left me spiritually whole.

your experience, or writings of other's experience does not encompass the whole. now granted, i will admit perhaps my experience is the curiosity, however your argument comes from a generality that few EDers would stand for.

2. what's wrong with compensating a group that leaves you fulfilled? i am a part of ADF, as well as a local grove, both of which require dues to be a full, voting member. additionally, i am a member of the Troth, and a local kindred, again, both of which require dues to be a full, voting member. both organizations require the dues to cover the paperwork and filings and mailers and material they put out. the local organizations then have costs to cover for material aspects (offerings, buildings, mailers, etc.) and perhaps group oriented projects (Lughnasadh games, Imbolc vigil, Thor's hammer classes, etc.). added to this, i regularly donate about $25 every paycheck to my local grove as well as shell out moneys for a choice of festivals.

perhaps it is our diverging views on what a spiritual community does for one, but on the latter aspect (my kindred), they are likened to family, if not closer. my grove is very similar, in less clear cut ways, especially as i donate a lot of my time as their treasurer, beyond my monetary donations. why is it so "odd" or repulsive to want to give money to something that is important to me?

3. why on earth did you decide to bash this specific path? and where did you get the impression that it was okay?

i'm rather affronted that it seemed like a thing that would be accepted. yes, we've all made an occasional joke about a ritual or event we've attended, but i don't really recall such a blanket offense being aimed before (other than at organizations that have put in their intentions specific things - Nazi, KKK, Skinheads, etc.).  

[TeaDidikai]

To actually answer the question, it stems from a place of entitlement.

People feel they are entitled to all the efforts of others without anything in exchange,. And don'tcha know? Money is evil, filthy stuff that should never have anything to do with religion- after all, it isn't like clergy need to eat or anything.

As for the fallacy of the opening volley, it's an argument from ignorance on his part.  

[Satrevi]

TeaDidikai

PrometheanSet

As with all branches of Paganism, its important that Wiccans honestly discern their roots and remain true to them.

Since it's an orthopraxic tradition- I'm not seeing a problem with this.

Quote:

Even the Reconstructionists are having issues with this - hence, I set forward the idea that academic research (or, membership in groups founded on such) is the last bastion of the Paganism we really hope to discover. I've heard that there is a practitioner of Celtic beliefs here that fits this description.

You really have no clue as to what you are talking about do you? confused

Quote:

The history I set forward attributes Wicca to a tradition of Western Mysticism that stems all the way back into the middle ages (Through Thelema, we can trace to the Golden Dawn, then through that to the various folk mystical ideas in seemingly innumerable European locales in the middle ages. From there, its a whole other discussion!)

Problem- Thelema isn't Wica in the same way that Judaism isn't Islam.

Having been influenced by a predecessor doesn't make you one and the same.

Quote:

Instead, I would argue that if one wants a roadmap of the sorts of spiritual experiences that initiation into Wicca should bring, look into Crowley's Thelema.

I'd say ******** Thelema. You want to know about Wica, look at ******** Wica.

Quote:

No, don't go join the OTO. For one, they're a bureaucratic organization that has lost touch with the original intent of its creation.

Hmmm... the last time I heard such an offhanded dismissal, it was by someone the Vortex Camp had rejected for initiation based on their personal short comings.

Not saying this is your situation- just saying it's proof by assertion and an appeal to authority. The idea that the OTO isn't fulfilling it's nature is a bit silly to me.

Quote:

Also, there's a financial commitment to learning from their College/Temple of Thelema.

HOSHIT! You mean someone might feel it is appropriate to be compensated for their time and effort?

WE CAN'T HAVE THAT NOW CAN WE!?

Did you miss the memo that Wica is not Thelema?

Quote:

Why are they both called Wicca? I seriously want to know.

Because people perpetuate appeals to popularity when it comes to naming conventions. People have senses of entitlement and don't care if they misrepresent themselves if it makes them look more established/cooler. People are ignorant as ********...

Did I mention that Wica is not Thelema?

you come off too strong sometimes. chill out.  

[TeaDidikai]

Areleklo

you come off too strong sometimes. chill out.

Boo hoo. Seriously. I didn't swear. I didn't resort to name calling. My behavior was perfectly in line with what is acceptable in this guild.

Perhaps instead of expecting people to "Chill Out" in order to keep other people who are, I might add, incorrect in their assertions from getting butthurt over having the fact they are wrong pointed out to them- folks like you should grow a thicker skin.

Criticizing a position is not the same as criticizing your worth as a human being.  

[TeaDidikai]

Celeblin Galadeneryn

Tea, you totally said HOSHIT, you lying b***h.

I HATE you now.

D'oh! You're right! I keep forgetting that's an actual cuss and not a meme. sweatdrop

Assertion retracted. I stand corrected, you ******** a**.  

[Recursive Paradox]

Celeblin Galadeneryn

TeaDidikai

Areleklo

you come off too strong sometimes. chill out.

Boo hoo. Seriously. I didn't swear. I didn't resort to name calling. My behavior was perfectly in line with what is acceptable in this guild.

Perhaps instead of expecting people to "Chill Out" in order to keep other people who are, I might add, incorrect in their assertions from getting butthurt over having the fact they are wrong pointed out to them- folks like you should grow a thicker skin.

Criticizing a position is not the same as criticizing your worth as a human being.

Tea, you totally said HOSHIT, you lying b***h.

I HATE you now.

She made me cry with her usage of that terrible H word. *tearful nod*  

[Recursive Paradox]

Celeblin Galadeneryn

Recursive Paradox

Celeblin Galadeneryn

TeaDidikai

Areleklo

you come off too strong sometimes. chill out.

Boo hoo. Seriously. I didn't swear. I didn't resort to name calling. My behavior was perfectly in line with what is acceptable in this guild.

Perhaps instead of expecting people to "Chill Out" in order to keep other people who are, I might add, incorrect in their assertions from getting butthurt over having the fact they are wrong pointed out to them- folks like you should grow a thicker skin.

Criticizing a position is not the same as criticizing your worth as a human being.

Tea, you totally said HOSHIT, you lying b***h.

I HATE you now.

She made me cry with her usage of that terrible H word. *tearful nod*

*cradles and pats head*

Tea, you're a horrible ******** MONSTER.

I hope you get hit by a goddamned truck!

BUUUUT *sob* WHYYYYY DID SHE *gulp* HAVE TO *sobsob* HURT MY FEEEEEEEEEELINGS *cries more*  

[TeaDidikai]

Recursive Paradox

Celeblin Galadeneryn

Recursive Paradox

Celeblin Galadeneryn

TeaDidikai

Areleklo

you come off too strong sometimes. chill out.

Boo hoo. Seriously. I didn't swear. I didn't resort to name calling. My behavior was perfectly in line with what is acceptable in this guild.

Perhaps instead of expecting people to "Chill Out" in order to keep other people who are, I might add, incorrect in their assertions from getting butthurt over having the fact they are wrong pointed out to them- folks like you should grow a thicker skin.

Criticizing a position is not the same as criticizing your worth as a human being.

Tea, you totally said HOSHIT, you lying b***h.

I HATE you now.

She made me cry with her usage of that terrible H word. *tearful nod*

*cradles and pats head*

Tea, you're a horrible ******** MONSTER.

I hope you get hit by a goddamned truck!

BUUUUT *sob* WHYYYYY DID SHE *gulp* HAVE TO *sobsob* HURT MY FEEEEEEEEEELINGS *cries more*

BECAUSE VIRGIN EARS ARE A SACRED OFFERING TO MY GHODS!  

[Recursive Paradox]

TeaDidikai

Recursive Paradox

Celeblin Galadeneryn

Recursive Paradox

Celeblin Galadeneryn

Tea, you totally said HOSHIT, you lying b***h.

I HATE you now.

She made me cry with her usage of that terrible H word. *tearful nod*

*cradles and pats head*

Tea, you're a horrible ******** MONSTER.

I hope you get hit by a goddamned truck!

BUUUUT *sob* WHYYYYY DID SHE *gulp* HAVE TO *sobsob* HURT MY FEEEEEEEEEELINGS *cries more*

BECAUSE VIRGIN EARS ARE A SACRED OFFERING TO MY GHODS!

G-h-o-d-s? o_O

Edit: Ooooh I recognize it now. It's from that one. The Happy Day troll. Error likes her a lot too.

I don't really see the appeal... >.>  

[TeaDidikai]

Recursive Paradox

Edit: Ooooh I recognize it now. It's from that one. The Happy Day troll. Error likes her a lot too.

I don't really see the appeal... >.>

Insane comedy relief? She gets to vent for some of us. sweatdrop