Abortion Made Simple

[Ixor Firebadger]

zz1000zz

We know because the Bible say so, or does not say so. It is no different than anything else. If the Bible does not say it is a sin, how could we decide it is a sin?

It's possible that it does, just not in so many words. Not everything in the Bible is spelled out completely clearly. There are a lot of grey areas, and this I dare say, is one of them.

zz1000zz

You cannot say it is a sin, but then say you will not interfere in other people's personal choices. It is the same as with something like homosexuality. While you may do anything to directly interfere with another person's life, simply by calling it a sin you interfere. By not disagreeing when other people call it a sin, you interfere.

Consider how many people did not receive abortions because Republican presidents refused to allow funding to groups providing them.

I wasn't really claiming that I wouldn't interfere on some level. I was merely claiming that I can hold an opinion, even express it, without taking away that person's choice. I may influence them in some way, if their heart allows, but I can also state my case in such a way that they don't feel pressured to do something they don't want to. Ultimately, it is still that person's choice and even if I disagree with it, I can still openly respect that person and their choice.  

[zz1000zz]

Ixor-san

zz1000zz

We know because the Bible say so, or does not say so. It is no different than anything else. If the Bible does not say it is a sin, how could we decide it is a sin?

It's possible that it does, just not in so many words. Not everything in the Bible is spelled out completely clearly. There are a lot of grey areas, and this I dare say, is one of them.

By what logic could one say the Bible says abortion is a sin?  

[Ixor Firebadger]

zz1000zz

Ixor-san

zz1000zz

We know because the Bible say so, or does not say so. It is no different than anything else. If the Bible does not say it is a sin, how could we decide it is a sin?

It's possible that it does, just not in so many words. Not everything in the Bible is spelled out completely clearly. There are a lot of grey areas, and this I dare say, is one of them.

By what logic could one say the Bible says abortion is a sin?

I made no claim that it did. I simply said it was possible. One person has already quoted scripture that, to them, means that a fetus is something the God meant for life. You didn't agree, but that does not mean that they weren't right. Granted, it doesn't mean they weren't wrong, either.  

[zz1000zz]

Ixor-san

I made no claim that it did. I simply said it was possible.

My point was not any claim you made. I want people to present the logic they think shows the Bible condemning abortion. The reasoning is if they do so, it can be discussed. From such a discussion, a conclusion can be reached.

Ixor-san

One person has already quoted scripture that, to them, means that a fetus is something the God meant for life. You didn't agree, but that does not mean that they weren't right. Granted, it doesn't mean they weren't wrong, either.

Assuming "God meant for life" is another way of saying abortion would be a sin, I disagree with this sentiment. Certainly, me disagreeing with someone does not mean they are wrong. However, I provided the reasoning behind my disagreement.

If that reasoning is sound and not refuted, I am correct and they are wrong.  

[Xandris]

I personally consider a fetus a baby and therefore, to me, abortion is murdering babies. After a certain point in development, there is NO difference between a baby in the womb and one outside. Where do we draw that line? When it's born? When it's the same developmentally? When it can start to dream? When it has its own heartbeat? Preventing the creation of something is essentially the same as destroying it.

When does the soul enter this tiny, forming body? And why are we so justified in killing the shell that contains it before it ever had a chance to experience human life? I think that's the biggest question: where does the soul factor into our decision? I define human as anything with a soul: that's what seperates us from the rest of the life on this planet.

Abortion, I think, is wrong. A sin? That I'm not sure about, but wrongfulness and sin are two different things.

Matthew 6:26

Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they?

And, looking at this verse, abortion seems highly disrespectful. God took all this time to create us, look after us, care for us, hold us in his highest regard, and we do terrible, terrible things to each other. We don't appreciate what he's given us, even down to the small gift of life that's often seen as a curse and an inconvenience.  

[zz1000zz]

Xandris

I personally consider a fetus a baby and therefore, to me, abortion is murdering babies.

If you consider abortion murder, I see no room to not also consider it a sin (biblically speaking). However, I do not see anything in the Bible which would say abortion is murder.

As for the issue of when a fetus becomes a human, there is no certain answer. However, it is certain there is nothing in the Bible which says a zygote is a human.  

[Xandris]

zz1000zz

As for the issue of when a fetus becomes a human, there is no certain answer. However, it is certain there is nothing in the Bible which says a zygote is a human.

There's nothing in the Bible that says a zygote ISN'T human either. Somehow I don't think abortion was high on the list of concerns in those days, especially in the OT. In fact, the first three books of the OT are all about being fruitful and lineages. When women miscarried or otherwise lost children, they mourned heavily for months, sometimes years. I think it's a sign how far we've removed ourselves from each other and from God that abortion is a commonplace procedure that few people even blink an eye at anymore. Perhaps it's not abortion itself that's a sin, but our worship of the ways of the world, our seperation from God, that has caused us to see his gifts as burdens that's sinful. *ponders*  

[Ixor Firebadger]

zz1000zz

Ixor-san

I made no claim that it did. I simply said it was possible.

My point was not any claim you made. I want people to present the logic they think shows the Bible condemning abortion. The reasoning is if they do so, it can be discussed. From such a discussion, a conclusion can be reached.

Ixor-san

One person has already quoted scripture that, to them, means that a fetus is something the God meant for life. You didn't agree, but that does not mean that they weren't right. Granted, it doesn't mean they weren't wrong, either.

Assuming "God meant for life" is another way of saying abortion would be a sin, I disagree with this sentiment. Certainly, me disagreeing with someone does not mean they are wrong. However, I provided the reasoning behind my disagreement.

If that reasoning is sound and not refuted, I am correct and they are wrong.

Just because one can put their beliefs into words more effectively than another, or because one person can't quite understand the others perspective, doesn't neccesarily mean they are right.

And unfortunately, as I said, I really can't put my finger on why I feel the way I do, in this case. It's just something that I'm certain of.  

[Fushigi na Butterfly]

I'm gonna have to go with ryuu on this. What's the difference between a fetus and a human? If murder is killing a human, and murder is sin, who's to say you're not actually killing a human when you kill a fetus? Like ryuu said, at some point, there is no difference between a baby on the inside and a baby on the outside. So when do we say a fetus is a human? It seems too risky to chance it. At some point, a woman who has an abortion is committing a sin, because she may be killing her fetus at the point when it has reached personhood. And just because you don't know something is a sin doesn't exculpate you from its consequences.

At any rate, Priestley and I have the same opinion- we're pro-responsibility. Not pro-life in the sense that every woman ever who ever gets pregnant should always keep her baby no matter the circumstances, because there are extreme circumstances when the pros to an abortion greatly outweigh the cons. We're also not so pro-choice that we believe abortion should be used whenever a woman doesn't feel like having the baby she and her partner created. Abortion should only be an option in the most extreme cases, and abortion clinics should be required to refer post-abortive women to counseling. Women should also be educated on all the risks of abortion before they decide. Too many pro-abortion people make abortion sound like it's as simple as getting a haircut. It's major, life-changing surgery that almost always leaves an effect behind on the woman and her family and friends.  

[ClaranceSH]

I repeated what I said cause you never said anything substantial to say that a unborn baby is not a human. You just said its not so its not a sin. I mean if you expect me to accept what you say because you said so or call what I say absurd that is certainly your right but we disagree. Does the Bible spell out it as a sin not as clear as we would like but it is killing a human. Does it openly say slavery is a sin. No it doesn't but do we still view it as such. Yes. A sin is missing the mark of perfection. We sin in ways we don't even know because of the environment we live in and the postion we are at in "working out our salvation". We, if we've accepted Christ, are saved and while still on this earth are working out our salvation.  

[Xandris]

Fushigi na Butterfly

At any rate, Priestley and I have the same opinion- we're pro-responsibility.

Let me third that opinion. mrgreen  

[Ixor Firebadger]

Xandris

Fushigi na Butterfly

At any rate, Priestley and I have the same opinion- we're pro-responsibility.

Let me third that opinion. mrgreen

Fourthed 3nodding  

[zz1000zz]

ClaranceSH

I repeated what I said cause you never said anything substantial to say that a unborn baby is not a human. You just said its not so its not a sin. I mean if you expect me to accept what you say because you said so or call what I say absurd that is certainly your right but we disagree.

This is not what happened at all. You explained your reasoning as to why a fetus is a human. I explained how your reasoning was flawed (via it having no basis). You then ignored my reasoning, choosing to repeat your position without responding to what I had said.

You have the burden of proof in this case, and you have failed to meet it.

ClaranceSH

Does it openly say slavery is a sin. No it doesn't but do we still view it as such.

Nothing in the Bible even suggests slavery is a sin, and a great number of things in it makes it clear it is not. I find it telling you view it as a sin.

Xandris

There's nothing in the Bible that says a zygote ISN'T human either.

There is nothing in the Bible that says a dog ISN'T a human. There is nothing in the Bible that says a computer ISN'T a human. I am not attempting to say these are the same, but I hope this illustrates the problem with your logic. The burden of proof is always on the people calling something a sin, not the people saying it is not.

I think the most disturbing problem of people who oppose abortion, calling it murder is this. How can you say, "Abortion is murder," but also say things like, "Rape victims can have abortions"? This effectively says, "Murder is okay sometimes." And if you do think abortion is murder, why are you so indifferent about it? Are you really capable of living within a few miles of a place where hundreds of "people" are "murdered"?

If you truly think abortion is murder, despite there being no basis for it, why are you not obligated to protect fetuses as much as you are obligated to protect anyone else?  

[Fushigi na Butterfly]

zz1000zz

I think the most disturbing problem of people who oppose abortion, calling it murder is this. How can you say, "Abortion is murder," but also say things like, "Rape victims can have abortions"? This effectively says, "Murder is okay sometimes." And if you do think abortion is murder, why are you so indifferent about it? Are you really capable of living within a few miles of a place where hundreds of "people" are "murdered"?

If you truly think abortion is murder, despite there being no basis for it, why are you not obligated to protect fetuses as much as you are obligated to protect anyone else?

Personally, I've always realized that's what I was saying. "Murder is okay sometimes." God clearly condoned it in the Bible, for His purposes, eventually bringing good from evil, instead of repaying evil for good. If I had it my way, women wouldn't be raped in the first place, and no pregnancy would be unwanted. As it is, sometimes sacrifices have to be made in order for God's plan to come to fruition. It's sad, and it should be unnecessary, but our sinful nature makes in necessary.

My good friend serves as a good example. She had an abortion at 16. It probably wasn't necessary (as in, she wasn't going to die without it), and it saddens me to think she killed what I believe to be her baby. But if she'd had a baby, she probably wouldn't have made it to college, and we probably never would have met, and I find it unlikely she would have heard the Good News from any of her other friends (who seem to me to be of the strongly pagan influence or otherwise anti-Christian). I mean, that's not to say that God would not have worked out His plan for her in some other way, but I'm glad it happened this way, because she and I are very good friends now, and I think we've both learned alot from each other. A child had to be sacrificed for it to happen, but if it is a sin, it is a forgiven one like all others, and I don't love her any less for her past choices/mistakes.

I will always feel abortion is murder, and I will always feel saddened by its presence in our world. But I won't question God's ability to turn it into something beneficial for the individuals involved.  

[UnfaithfulBeans]

OK guys, im just wondering...
If this fetus or human DNA is just that: a fetus or human DNA; where does the soul come into play?
Is it leared in life?
or given at birth?
or perhaps, maybe God gives it at conception?
Just wondering...