Predestination

[Samsoonie]

freelance lover - ah that's a very good way of explaining it!

Yeah I understand that both sides are right to some degree but I also know that we can only comprehend so much
I just wanted to see what everyone else thought much thanks all  

[sunfire09]

I think that's the best explanation I've ever heard for this situation, freelance lover.
I think predestination is untrue. I agree with the fact that God knows the result of every choice we make, it's just up to us to make the choice. I mean, it's possible on a smaller scale for us to do the same thing. I already know that any boy at my school who tries out for cheerleading is probably going to be called "gay" by at least one person. (what's so gay about wanting to hang out with a bunch of good looking girls in skirts? but, I digress.) This does not mean that simply because I knew people would make fun of him that I made them do it. Even though I knew the outcome, he still had a choice.  

[Galad Aglaron]

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Predestination defies the concept of free will. If God is truly omniscient, then everything that has happened since Creation - the Fall of Lucifer, the Fall of Man, sin itself - has been planned and planned for by Him. If God already knows if you're going to choose the mustard or the ketchup, there's really no choice. He already knows you'll choose the ketchup, so He doesn't really need to put the mustard on the table, but He does so anyway to give you the illusion of free will.

Omniscience is the attribute of knowing everything. Predestination is the theory that every event is planned in advance to happen the way it does. One does not imply the other.

Knowing an event will happen as a result of a particular action is not the same as causing that event to happen.

You're probably thinking of omnipotence, in which case you're assuming a requirement of omnipotence is that it is exercised at all times.

If God is all-knowing - "He knows what I say before I say it, He knows the number of hairs on my head, He knew me before I was born", all that jazz - and it is by God set the universe in motion in the Beginning, then nothing exists that has not its uttermost source in Him. Likewise, there is nothing that happens that does not originate from Him, and since He is all-knowing, it is highly improbable that he did not know the eventual results of His actions.

Let's clear this up a bit:

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If (a) God is omniscient, that is, he knows all;
and (b) God created the universe;
then (c) everything in the universe is part of Him.

(a) is irrelevant. (c) does not follow (b).

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If (a) God is omniscient, that is, he knows all;
and (b) God created the universe;
and (c) the above argument is true;
then (d) nothing in the universe does not originate from him.

(a) is irrelevant here also. The argument above this one is a logical fallacy and (d) does not follow (b).

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If (a) God is omniscient, that is, he knows all;
then (b) every event is predestined.

(b) does not follow (a). Omniscience does not imply predestination.

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As Neo so eloquently put it: "But if you already know, how can I make a choice?"

Knowledge of outcomes does not negate choice.

You lost me a couple of miles back, boss. sweatdrop  

[Priestley]

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Predestination defies the concept of free will. If God is truly omniscient, then everything that has happened since Creation - the Fall of Lucifer, the Fall of Man, sin itself - has been planned and planned for by Him. If God already knows if you're going to choose the mustard or the ketchup, there's really no choice. He already knows you'll choose the ketchup, so He doesn't really need to put the mustard on the table, but He does so anyway to give you the illusion of free will.

Omniscience is the attribute of knowing everything. Predestination is the theory that every event is planned in advance to happen the way it does. One does not imply the other.

Knowing an event will happen as a result of a particular action is not the same as causing that event to happen.

You're probably thinking of omnipotence, in which case you're assuming a requirement of omnipotence is that it is exercised at all times.

If God is all-knowing - "He knows what I say before I say it, He knows the number of hairs on my head, He knew me before I was born", all that jazz - and it is by God set the universe in motion in the Beginning, then nothing exists that has not its uttermost source in Him. Likewise, there is nothing that happens that does not originate from Him, and since He is all-knowing, it is highly improbable that he did not know the eventual results of His actions.

Let's clear this up a bit:

Quote:

If (a) God is omniscient, that is, he knows all;
and (b) God created the universe;
then (c) everything in the universe is part of Him.

(a) is irrelevant. (c) does not follow (b).

Quote:

If (a) God is omniscient, that is, he knows all;
and (b) God created the universe;
and (c) the above argument is true;
then (d) nothing in the universe does not originate from him.

(a) is irrelevant here also. The argument above this one is a logical fallacy and (d) does not follow (b).

Quote:

If (a) God is omniscient, that is, he knows all;
then (b) every event is predestined.

(b) does not follow (a). Omniscience does not imply predestination.

Quote:

As Neo so eloquently put it: "But if you already know, how can I make a choice?"

Knowledge of outcomes does not negate choice.

You lost me a couple of miles back, boss. sweatdrop

Why? It was a simple summary of your own points, all of which were riddled with logical fallacies.  

[Galad Aglaron]

But C does follow B, D does follow B, the inherent truth of B is necessitated by A and knowledge of outcomes means all that is done is ultimately futile and choice is thusly meaningless.  

[freelance lover]

I'm glad everyone likes the choose you're own adventure theory... this summer at Project Transformation during a prayer meeting with some of my friends, we came up with that... This is why I love PT heart  

[DustNymph]

freelance lover

I'm glad everyone likes the choose you're own adventure theory... this summer at Project Transformation during a prayer meeting with some of my friends, we came up with that... This is why I love PT heart

I was excited when I came to this thread and saw that somebody had already mentioned that idea. XD And here I thought my viewpoint was a rarity!  

[Galad Aglaron]

freelance lover

I'm glad everyone likes the choose you're own adventure theory... this summer at Project Transformation during a prayer meeting with some of my friends, we came up with that... This is why I love PT heart

What's Project Transformation?  

[freelance lover]

Galad Damodred

freelance lover

I'm glad everyone likes the choose you're own adventure theory... this summer at Project Transformation during a prayer meeting with some of my friends, we came up with that... This is why I love PT heart

What's Project Transformation?

THE MOST AMAZING THING EVER! In short, it's an outreach ministry based out of Dallas, TX. College students spend the summer working with kids in innercity areas doing Bible lesson, arts and crafts, and just in general enriching their lives. The interns all live together too, so we eat, worship, do just about everything together, and we also get chances to explore different ministry opportunities! There's also a year round program, which I may go back and do after I graduate. If anyone is interested or want more information, you can just PM me- I'm always willing to talk about my summer smile

And uh... now back to predstination sweatdrop  

[The Amazing Ryuu]

Nice plug there freelance. Shall we talk about being predestined for things other than heaven? Like going to PT? wink wink  

[Priestley]

Galad Damodred

But C does follow B, D does follow B, the inherent truth of B is necessitated by A and knowledge of outcomes means all that is done is ultimately futile and choice is thusly meaningless.

Be clear on this. You provided three arguments. When referring to (a), (b), (c) and (d), you have to specify which arguments you mean for me to be able to follow, otherwise we're both going to have difficulty following.

As I have said, while omniscience would be required for predestination, it is illogical that predestination is automatically the consequence. This is what is called a 'non sequitur' and it is a logical fallacy. This is why I state that omniscience is an irrelevant condition in your first two arguments.

To your first argument: if God created the universe, then it is external to him, therefore it can no longer be part of Him. I don't know what relevance this has to omniscience or predestination.

To your second argument: if God created the universe and it is no longer part of Him (as I have reasoned above), then the universe originates from Him. It is entirely possible for some things in such a universe to originate from other things in such a universe. I don't know what relevance this argument has to omniscience or predestination either.

To your third argument (which I believe is the motive behind your other arguments): if God is omniscient, it does not logically follow that every event is predestined, as I have pointed out to you in the second paragraph of this post and in previous posts.  

[Priestley]

freelance lover

Galad Damodred

freelance lover

I'm glad everyone likes the choose you're own adventure theory... this summer at Project Transformation during a prayer meeting with some of my friends, we came up with that... This is why I love PT heart

What's Project Transformation?

THE MOST AMAZING THING EVER! In short, it's an outreach ministry based out of Dallas, TX. College students spend the summer working with kids in innercity areas doing Bible lesson, arts and crafts, and just in general enriching their lives. The interns all live together too, so we eat, worship, do just about everything together, and we also get chances to explore different ministry opportunities! There's also a year round program, which I may go back and do after I graduate. If anyone is interested or want more information, you can just PM me- I'm always willing to talk about my summer smile

And uh... now back to predstination sweatdrop

Looks like we have a thread hijacker in our midst, and a crew member too! stare

Just make a new post about it, dude.  

[freelance lover]

Priestley

freelance lover

Galad Damodred

freelance lover

I'm glad everyone likes the choose you're own adventure theory... this summer at Project Transformation during a prayer meeting with some of my friends, we came up with that... This is why I love PT heart

What's Project Transformation?

THE MOST AMAZING THING EVER! In short, it's an outreach ministry based out of Dallas, TX. College students spend the summer working with kids in innercity areas doing Bible lesson, arts and crafts, and just in general enriching their lives. The interns all live together too, so we eat, worship, do just about everything together, and we also get chances to explore different ministry opportunities! There's also a year round program, which I may go back and do after I graduate. If anyone is interested or want more information, you can just PM me- I'm always willing to talk about my summer smile

And uh... now back to predstination sweatdrop

Looks like we have a thread hijacker in our midst, and a crew member too! stare

Just make a new post about it, dude.

She asked a question so I answered... I tried to redirect it back on topic (kinda). Though I guess it was kind of my fault in the first place... My bad guys... I just thought it would be rude not to answer sweatdrop

But, in an attempt to redirect up back on topic to make up for my digression, how about aI pose a question? Do you think that God has a set destination for us, but with multiple paths to get there? Or is it all subjective and we can stray so far we'll never end up where we should?  

[Galad Aglaron]

I am male. stare  

[Ixor Firebadger]

freelance lover

Priestley

freelance lover

Galad Damodred

freelance lover

I'm glad everyone likes the choose you're own adventure theory... this summer at Project Transformation during a prayer meeting with some of my friends, we came up with that... This is why I love PT heart

What's Project Transformation?

THE MOST AMAZING THING EVER! In short, it's an outreach ministry based out of Dallas, TX. College students spend the summer working with kids in innercity areas doing Bible lesson, arts and crafts, and just in general enriching their lives. The interns all live together too, so we eat, worship, do just about everything together, and we also get chances to explore different ministry opportunities! There's also a year round program, which I may go back and do after I graduate. If anyone is interested or want more information, you can just PM me- I'm always willing to talk about my summer smile

And uh... now back to predstination sweatdrop

Looks like we have a thread hijacker in our midst, and a crew member too! stare

Just make a new post about it, dude.

She asked a question so I answered... I tried to redirect it back on topic (kinda). Though I guess it was kind of my fault in the first place... My bad guys... I just thought it would be rude not to answer sweatdrop

But, in an attempt to redirect up back on topic to make up for my digression, how about aI pose a question? Do you think that God has a set destination for us, but with multiple paths to get there? Or is it all subjective and we can stray so far we'll never end up where we should?

I think that we will always serve God's purpose in our lives but we can do it the easy way or the hard way. We can choose to be the demonstration of what to do or what not to do. And I think that the final decision of where we go when it's over is up to us, despite the choice that out Heavenly Father would like us to make.