Snape: Good or Evil? | Page 2 | Debating | Guild Forums

Panda Chi

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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:45 am

I'm going to bring up this book quote again...

Quote:

"If you are there to protect him... Severus, will you swear it? Will you make the Unbreakable Vow?"
"The Unbreakable Vow?"
Snapes expression was blank, unreadable. Bellatrix, however, let out a cackle of triumphant laughter.
"Aren't you listening, Narcissa? Oh, he'll try, I'm sure... The usual empty words, the usual slithering out action... oh, on the Dark Lords orders, of course!"
Snape did not look at Bellatrix. His black eyes were fixed upon Narcissa's tear-filled blue ones as she continued to clutch his hand.
"Certainly, Narcissa, I shall make the Unbreakable Vow," he said quietly. "Perhaps your sister will concent to be our Bonder."

Okay, first think I want to bring up is that it was Narcissa's idea to make the Vow. Not Snape's. So, were Dumbledore and Snape to plan this out they'd be sitting there saying, "Okay, well if Narcissa randomly comes and out of the blue asks you to make the Unbreakable Vow with her that you'll kill me, then do so. Because you're my most important spy, not that anyone will ever trust you again after you kill me..."

I just kind of doubt that. It wasn't exactly something that they could have predicted it happened. It seemed to be a somewhat spur-of-the-moment thing.

Also, look at Snape's reaction:

Quote:

"If you are there to protect him... Severus, will you swear it? Will you make the Unbreakable Vow?"
"The Unbreakable Vow?"
Snapes expression was blank, unreadable. Bellatrix, however, let out a cackle of triumphant laughter

The way he repeated her like that, makes me thing that he seemed unprepaired for the question. And of coures, had he been expecting the question, he wouldn't be unprepaired.

Quote:

"I tried, Draco. Professor Snape has been keeping watch over you on my orders-"
"He hasn't been doing your orders, he promised me mother--"
"Of course that's what he'd tell you, Draco, but--"
"He's a double agent, you stupid old man, he isn't working for you, you just think he is!"

^Page 588

Okay, so apperently, Dumbledore doesn't know that Snape made the Vow. Sure, that may have been just a bluff. But why would he do that? What would be the point?

Quote:

"Severus..."
The sound frightened Harry beyond anything he had experienced all evening. For the first time, Dumbledore was pleading.
Snape said nothing, but walked forward and pushed Malfoy roughly out of the way. The three Death Eaters fell back without a word. Even the werewolf seemed cowed.
"Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face.
"Severus... please...."
Snape raised his wand and pointed it directly at Dumbledore.
"Avada Kedavra!"

^Pages 595-596

This is an argument people use all the time to say that Snape is innocent. They say that Dumbledore would never beg for his life, because he knows that there are worse things than death.

However, I don't think Dumbledore was quite ready to go. He had a lot of things to do still. He had to help Harry find the Horcruxes. He had to lead the Order of the Pheonix, he was the headmaster of the school... He had things that he had to do for the good of the Wizarding world before he died. And I think he was realizing that he might not get to finish them.

Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:11 pm

Panda Chi

Actually, I thought the pheonixes developed rather fast...? Anyway, none of that answers my question, how would Fawkes even know what was happening to Dumbledore? Dumbledore was supposed to be getting the Hurcrux. And if Fawkes did know that Dumbledore was back, he probably didn't know that he was hurt and would assume Dumbledore could take care of himself.

They don't grow up in fifteen minutes. Fawkes was flying around the grounds singing after Dumbledore's death.

I have no idea how he would know. But then, how did he know Dumbledore was in trouble at the Ministry? Fawkes knows a lot, he was able to signal to them when Umbridge was coming in OotP.

Panda Chi

Dumbledore may be gifted in Ligilimens, but Snape is an expert at Legilimens/Occlumency. I'd give a quote, but I'm not sure where it was in the books (or even which book it was it), but I know that Dumbledore at one point, said that Snape was better at Voldemort at Legilimens/Occlumency than Voldemort, which is how he was able to keep secrets from Voldemort (or keep secrest from Dumbledore...). And we all know Voldemort is a Legilimens expert as well because he was able to give Harry dreams and such. I must say, that though Dumbledore was one of the most powerful wizards ever, he's not utterly flawless. And he's not good at everything.

I know. I struck that part down by myself anyway.

Panda Chi

Also, about the 'dozon detentions.' It wasn't only just a dozen detentions. It was detentions for the rest of the year, which also made him miss the final Quidditch game, and I think Snape thought that without Harry Gryffindore would lose the champion cup, and all the blame would go on Harry because he was the captain.

A dozen detentions weekly would've continued for the rest of the year.

But I had forgotten about the Quidditch match.

Panda Chi

I rather doubt that anyone would quit listening to him just because he knew he was going to die. I believe that all of the members of the Order are very loyal to Dumbeldore. We know that Harry, in any case, is loyal and wouldn't deny Dumbeldore's orders just because he was dying. We know that Harry wouldn't:

Dumbledore might not have told them because Voldemort is a Legilimens, and he might have tried to get the information out of them. Also, even if he had told Harry (or anyone who was around Snape a lot), there's a chance the Order might have thought them Confunded *shrug*

Panda Chi

Okay, first think I want to bring up is that it was Narcissa's idea to make the Vow. Not Snape's. So, were Dumbledore and Snape to plan this out they'd be sitting there saying, "Okay, well if Narcissa randomly comes and out of the blue asks you to make the Unbreakable Vow with her that you'll kill me, then do so. Because you're my most important spy, not that anyone will ever trust you again after you kill me..."

I just kind of doubt that. It wasn't exactly something that they could have predicted it happened. It seemed to be a somewhat spur-of-the-moment thing.

...No one said it was planned from then. I still can't think of when it could have been planned, maybe from after Snape taking the vow. One wonders if he had met with them to get information, but had not planned on taking the vow. He took it to keep his cover, then went to Dumbledore with the information.

Panda Chi

Okay, so apperently, Dumbledore doesn't know that Snape made the Vow. Sure, that may have been just a bluff. But why would he do that? What would be the point?

How do you know what section of Draco's sentence he was addressing? The "He hasn't been doing your orders" or the "he promised my mother--"? For all we know, it could be the former. Or it could be the latter. But Draco assumed that Dumbledore was addressing the former, and so responded to it. Snape wouldn't need an excuse to tell Draco as to why he was watching over him, one that Draco would repeat.

Panda Chi

This is an argument people use all the time to say that Snape is innocent. They say that Dumbledore would never beg for his life, because he knows that there are worse things than death.

However, I don't think Dumbledore was quite ready to go. He had a lot of things to do still. He had to help Harry find the Horcruxes. He had to lead the Order of the Pheonix, he was the headmaster of the school... He had things that he had to do for the good of the Wizarding world before he died. And I think he was realizing that he might not get to finish them.

Dumbledore was already weak and might have died later anyway from whatever that potion thing was, so why would he beg as if he had a chance of surviving? Dumbledore has rushed into many life-threatening situations without any sign of fear, so why would he suddenly be afraid in this one? Also, Dumbledore is not a coward. Dumbledore is a man of dignity. He would not indignify himself by pleading for life.

[Ernie]
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Panda Chi

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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:01 pm

[Ernie]

Panda Chi

Actually, I thought the pheonixes developed rather fast...? Anyway, none of that answers my question, how would Fawkes even know what was happening to Dumbledore? Dumbledore was supposed to be getting the Hurcrux. And if Fawkes did know that Dumbledore was back, he probably didn't know that he was hurt and would assume Dumbledore could take care of himself.

They don't grow up in fifteen minutes. Fawkes was flying around the grounds singing after Dumbledore's death.

I have no idea how he would know. But then, how did he know Dumbledore was in trouble at the Ministry? Fawkes knows a lot, he was able to signal to them when Umbridge was coming in OotP.

Yeah, but we don't really know if Fawkes was even in Dumbledore's office. Who knows what he was doing? Who knows if he really did know that Dumbledore was back, or in trouble? I just don't think that there's a lot of proof there.

[Ernie]

Panda Chi

Dumbledore may be gifted in Ligilimens, but Snape is an expert at Legilimens/Occlumency. I'd give a quote, but I'm not sure where it was in the books (or even which book it was it), but I know that Dumbledore at one point, said that Snape was better at Voldemort at Legilimens/Occlumency than Voldemort, which is how he was able to keep secrets from Voldemort (or keep secrest from Dumbledore...). And we all know Voldemort is a Legilimens expert as well because he was able to give Harry dreams and such. I must say, that though Dumbledore was one of the most powerful wizards ever, he's not utterly flawless. And he's not good at everything.

I know. I struck that part down by myself anyway.

Oh, okay. Must not of seen that. =O

[Ernie]

Panda Chi

Also, about the 'dozon detentions.' It wasn't only just a dozen detentions. It was detentions for the rest of the year, which also made him miss the final Quidditch game, and I think Snape thought that without Harry Gryffindore would lose the champion cup, and all the blame would go on Harry because he was the captain.

A dozen detentions weekly would've continued for the rest of the year.

But I had forgotten about the Quidditch match.

For me, detentions continuing the rest of the year would be some pretty nasty punishment in it's self. But not being able to go to the last Quidditch game of the year, especially for Harry, would be horrible. Harry would feel like he'd totally let the team down. Yeah. That would suck.

[Ernie]

Panda Chi

I rather doubt that anyone would quit listening to him just because he knew he was going to die. I believe that all of the members of the Order are very loyal to Dumbeldore. We know that Harry, in any case, is loyal and wouldn't deny Dumbeldore's orders just because he was dying. We know that Harry wouldn't:

Dumbledore might not have told them because Voldemort is a Legilimens, and he might have tried to get the information out of them. Also, even if he had told Harry (or anyone who was around Snape a lot), there's a chance the Order might have thought them Confunded *shrug*

If that were the case, the Dumbledore had better not tell them anything. Ever. And Voldemort wouldn't need Snape as a spy because he could get the information from them through his Legilimens. Pfft.

And I'm pretty sure there would be a way that they could be sure that he's not Confunded if they were suspicious.

[Ernie]

Panda Chi

Okay, first think I want to bring up is that it was Narcissa's idea to make the Vow. Not Snape's. So, were Dumbledore and Snape to plan this out they'd be sitting there saying, "Okay, well if Narcissa randomly comes and out of the blue asks you to make the Unbreakable Vow with her that you'll kill me, then do so. Because you're my most important spy, not that anyone will ever trust you again after you kill me..."

I just kind of doubt that. It wasn't exactly something that they could have predicted it happened. It seemed to be a somewhat spur-of-the-moment thing.

...No one said it was planned from then. I still can't think of when it could have been planned, maybe from after Snape taking the vow. One wonders if he had met with them to get information, but had not planned on taking the vow. He took it to keep his cover, then went to Dumbledore with the information.

But he still took the vow. Which means he just said that he would kill Dumbledore, without Dumbledore's permission. Oh that's smart. "I'll kill my leader to keep my cover..."

[Ernie]

Panda Chi

Okay, so apperently, Dumbledore doesn't know that Snape made the Vow. Sure, that may have been just a bluff. But why would he do that? What would be the point?

How do you know what section of Draco's sentence he was addressing? The "He hasn't been doing your orders" or the "he promised my mother--"? For all we know, it could be the former. Or it could be the latter. But Draco assumed that Dumbledore was addressing the former, and so responded to it. Snape wouldn't need an excuse to tell Draco as to why he was watching over him, one that Draco would repeat.

Actually, I thought that he was responding to both. That would work. Still, Dumbledore made not recognition of any promise that Snape might have made with her mother.

[Ernie]

Panda Chi

This is an argument people use all the time to say that Snape is innocent. They say that Dumbledore would never beg for his life, because he knows that there are worse things than death.

However, I don't think Dumbledore was quite ready to go. He had a lot of things to do still. He had to help Harry find the Horcruxes. He had to lead the Order of the Pheonix, he was the headmaster of the school... He had things that he had to do for the good of the Wizarding world before he died. And I think he was realizing that he might not get to finish them.

Dumbledore was already weak and might have died later anyway from whatever that potion thing was, so why would he beg as if he had a chance of surviving? Dumbledore has rushed into many life-threatening situations without any sign of fear, so why would he suddenly be afraid in this one? Also, Dumbledore is not a coward. Dumbledore is a man of dignity. He would not indignify himself by pleading for life.

He may have been close to death before, but I highly doubt he would have been this close to death before. And I think that it was right not that he was truly realizing that he was about to die. Also, he probably wasn't pleading for his life because he afraid to die. I believe that he was pleading for his life, because he was afraid that the entire Wizarding World would be in trouble if died. As I said before, he wasn't done yet. He couldn't just stop then because Harry still needed his help.

Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 4:47 pm

If I don't reply for a while, it's because I'm writing my faith statement for confirmation, okay?

Panda Chi

[Ernie]

They don't grow up in fifteen minutes. Fawkes was flying around the grounds singing after Dumbledore's death.

I have no idea how he would know. But then, how did he know Dumbledore was in trouble at the Ministry? Fawkes knows a lot, he was able to signal to them when Umbridge was coming in OotP.

Yeah, but we don't really know if Fawkes was even in Dumbledore's office. Who knows what he was doing? Who knows if he really did know that Dumbledore was back, or in trouble? I just don't think that there's a lot of proof there.

No, I don't think it is either. However, Fawkes has shown his ability to show up just in time to save someone before. He did it in CoS, although that was because Dumbledore sent him. The same could be said that Dumbledore called him in OotP. So, it could have been that Dumbledore either didn't deliberately call Fawkes, Fawkes couldn't get to him or maybe even Dumbles wasn't even strong enough to call Fawkes.

I have a copy of Fantastic Beasts and where to Find them SOMEWHERE in this clutter, but I can't find it gonk I know there's an entry there about Phoenixes.

Maybe the HPLexicon...

http://www.hp-lexicon.org/bestiary/fawkes.html

They brought up something that I had never noticed: Fawkes didn't die when it looked the Basilisk in the eye. "Curious" xd

Panda Chi

[Ernie]

A dozen detentions weekly would've continued for the rest of the year.

But I had forgotten about the Quidditch match.

For me, detentions continuing the rest of the year would be some pretty nasty punishment in it's self. But not being able to go to the last Quidditch game of the year, especially for Harry, would be horrible. Harry would feel like he'd totally let the team down. Yeah. That would suck.

Very true. But, I meant that he had gotten a rather light punishement for using such a spell on a fellow student. Had he been a normal student (assuming he hadn't already been expelled), something like that would've gotten him a visit to Dumble's office at the least.

Panda Chi

If that were the case, the Dumbledore had better not tell them anything. Ever. And Voldemort wouldn't need Snape as a spy because he could get the information from them through his Legilimens. Pfft.

And I'm pretty sure there would be a way that they could be sure that he's not Confunded if they were suspicious.

Sorry, I should have elaborated that a bit. If Voldemort were suspicious of Snape being a double-agent, and could not defeat Snape in Legilimency, how else would he get his information? He couldn't--and doesn't--try to use Legilimency on the Order because he can't get a hold of any of them. He doesn't try to either. Though he might if he wanted specific information from them.

True. I had already thought of that too when I typed it up xd That wasn't a real theory or argument; just something that popped into my mind.

Panda Chi

But he still took the vow. Which means he just said that he would kill Dumbledore, without Dumbledore's permission. Oh that's smart. "I'll kill my leader to keep my cover..."

One would think Dumbledore would stress that holding his cover is the most important thing confused Sounds like something Dumbles would do.

Also, I wonder if Snape really knew the plan. This is just speculation, and I highly doubt it, but I like putting my theories down on... pixelated script xd

Panda Chi

Actually, I thought that he was responding to both. That would work. Still, Dumbledore made not recognition of any promise that Snape might have made with her mother.

Yeah, I thought he was responding to both too. Though, I don't see why Snape would use "I promised your mother" as an excuse to watch over Draco while he carried out "the plan". Snape wouldn't need an excuse, would he?

And--for all we know--the plan could have been a totally different thing. This is also pure speculation, but since it's on topic I'd like to see what others think about it. While context clues seem to point at killing Dumbledore as being "the Plan"

Panda Chi

He may have been close to death before, but I highly doubt he would have been this close to death before. And I think that it was right not that he was truly realizing that he was about to die. Also, he probably wasn't pleading for his life because he afraid to die. I believe that he was pleading for his life, because he was afraid that the entire Wizarding World would be in trouble if died. As I said before, he wasn't done yet. He couldn't just stop then because Harry still needed his help.

But why would he plead when it was quite obvious he was going to die? I don't think he didn't realize he was going to die. At least, not when the DE's came up after Draco. He obviously knew that Draco couldn't/wouldn't kill him.

[Ernie]
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Aci Dixinic

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Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 8:24 pm

Theres this really outlandish theory I have about Snape. Its - well, you guys are going to laugh at me, I mean, its a bit of a long shot, but here goes:

What you see is what you get.

Now, I know this isn't always Jo's style, she does sometimes have twists in the characters, such as Moody being Crouch in bk4, and Sirius being innocent in bk3. But it seems to me that Snape is truly bad. His twist is that he was evil after all, after six books of is he/isn't he, and I don't think there can be another twist about his loyalties. Its like the Harmonians looking too deeply into the friendship between Harry and Hermione. Jo writes only so deep. I'm pretty sure that Dumbledore and Sirius are just dead. Snape is just evil. Sirius and Lupin are just close friends, not lovers, and Cho Chang is just emotionally unstable, not a slut. And so on.
But I'm not saying that Jo doesn't have a lot more twists in store for us. I have recently started considering whether McGonagall was at school with Tom Riddle and Myrtle. They're about the right age, aren't they? Maybe they went out! Maybe thats a twist with bk7! (Not likely, eh. But possible nonetheless.)

Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 8:34 pm

Quote:

Its like the Harmonians looking too deeply into the friendship between Harry and Hermione.

Hey! I resemble that remark!

As for Snapey... I, personally, think that Snape probably is good... because, as my brother says "If he's evil that ruins the character". Because we're kinda being lead to believe he is, since we see (kinda) through Harry's eyes. I wish he were evil, though, because him being good would be so cliche (I also just plain hate Snape) xp And I'd say more... but everyone else has done a much better job of it 3nodding

Minari

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Aci Dixinic

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Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:34 pm

However you look at it, Snape is a traitor.
He is a double agent by spying on the Death Eaters for Dumbledore, and they think he is spying on Dumbledore for them.
Then it turns out he really is spying on the school for the Death Eaters and not actually spying on the DE's for Dumbledore, athough he makes it seem that way to the Order. So hes a triple agent.
And now some people want to believe that he was spying on the Death Eaters after all, and everything he did was under Dumbledore's orders, even Dumbledore's murder. Which makes him a quadruple agent.
eek
I just don't think its likely.
Snape is probably just an opportunist. Play both sides, see whos winning, and even if one loses it doesn't matter because they both think you were working for them all along. But he made a mistake with the Unbreakable Vow, and made a commitment that tipped the balance on his double-crossing. But oh well, it doesn't matter either way, now he just has to make extra sure that his current side wins, and hey, this'll surely provide all the opportunities he's been waiting for to dispose of that Potter, and the Mudblood and the Weasel, and the werewolf would have to go of course...
(Sorry, I got lost in Snape's persona whee )

Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:19 pm

Minari

Quote:

Its like the Harmonians looking too deeply into the friendship between Harry and Hermione.

Hey! I resemble that remark!

I believe the word you are looking for is "resent".

Acidic Cynic

However you look at it, Snape is a traitor.
He is a double agent by spying on the Death Eaters for Dumbledore, and they think he is spying on Dumbledore for them.
Then it turns out he really is spying on the school for the Death Eaters and not actually spying on the DE's for Dumbledore, athough he makes it seem that way to the Order. So hes a triple agent.
And now some people want to believe that he was spying on the Death Eaters after all, and everything he did was under Dumbledore's orders, even Dumbledore's murder. Which makes him a quadruple agent.
eek
I just don't think its likely.
Snape is probably just an opportunist. Play both sides, see whos winning, and even if one loses it doesn't matter because they both think you were working for them all along. But he made a mistake with the Unbreakable Vow, and made a commitment that tipped the balance on his double-crossing. But oh well, it doesn't matter either way, now he just has to make extra sure that his current side wins, and hey, this'll surely provide all the opportunities he's been waiting for to dispose of that Potter, and the Mudblood and the Weasel, and the werewolf would have to go of course...
(Sorry, I got lost in Snape's persona whee )

I stand by my theory that he's playing both sides. :3

[Ernie]
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Joie D

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Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:40 pm

I think I agree somewhat with the playing both sides theory, but I'm not going to comment fully on it yet, as I'm working on a long essay. I just wanted to bring something else into the debate.

Reason Snape gives Bellatrix for "returning" to Voldemort late after the Tri-Wizard Tournament:

HBP, American hardcover edition, p. 28

"Think! By waiting two hours, just two hours, I ensured that I could remain at Hogwarts as a spy! By allowing Dumbledore to think that I was only returning to the Dark Lord's side because I was ordered to, I have been able to pass information on Dumbledore and the Order of the Phoenix ever since."

I am very surprised that I have not seen this quoted more often. Now, of course Voldemort was using Snape as a spy, so he knew Snape was a double agent. We knew this in OoTP. The knew information received here is that Voldemort knew that Snape's return happened on Dumbledore's orders. Do you follow me. This means that, no matter which side he was playing, BOTH sides knew he was channeling at least some information to the other side. This makes him not just a double agent but a triple agent and, if you believe he really was loyal to one particular side, a quadruple agent even. If you believe he was playing both sides of the field, acting on opportunity, it can be even more interesting.

I don't know if this argument is making sense to anyone, but I thought I'd put it out there.

Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 7:23 pm

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Basil Musible

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Aci Dixinic

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Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:45 am

Okay.
So taking in the two pages that we've posted on Snape so far it seems the three main opinions are:
1) Snape is good
2) Snape is bad
3) Snape is an opportunist sitting on the fence as long as possible.
I would suggest a poll, to see what the prevailing opinion is and of course to get me some gold, but the problem with that is this is a debating Guild, and the purpose of a debate is to change someone's mind. So if someone does take the poll at the start of the debate and then a good argument changes their mind, then the poll no longer reflects their views. Put your hand up if you had a different opinion of Snape before you started debating it on Gaia (not necessarily just this Guild).
*Puts her hand up*
I thought he was LV's man through and through. Now I reckon hes just looking out for himself.

Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 4:13 am

*Raises Hand*

I too thought that Snape was a great follower of Lord Voldemort, and he had spied on Dumbledore and Harry at great personal risk. It believe I was probably biased because I was only 8 years old when reading the first book and I didn't necessarily see into the character. If they said Snape was "bad" I thought he would be bad. Like a superhero show, the goodies and the baddies.

But after debating about how Snape was evil I was getting my arse kicked. The scenes that probably killed me was when Severus and Albus were argueing and the Unbreakable Vow. He never hesitated and when Bellatrix interrogated him, he answered in a way that sounded almost rehearsed.

Lunar_Blade

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[Ernie]
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Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 12:16 pm

Acidic Cynic

the purpose of a debate is to change someone's mind.

The main purpose of debate is to defeat your opponent, not to change someone's mind.

Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 4:45 pm

Oooh, a competitive one. Okay then, for me the purpose of a debate is to change someone else's mind.

Aci Dixinic

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Panda Chi

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Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 7:33 pm

The thing for me is that people seem to think, that if Snape was truely one of Voldemort's servants, he would have wanted to kill Dumbledore.

I don't think so. He spent a lot of time with Dumbledore. Dumbledore was the one person who trusted him. Just because he had to, doesn't me that he wanted to.

He still did it in the first place without Dumbledore's concent. Which means he basically just agree to kill his leader without his concent.

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