Project: Religion Slut

[TeaDidikai]

mute_coyote

So, the Mormons made a deal with me: I pray and read the Book of Mormon, and if Yahweh confirms it (talks to me, etc...) by Oct. 25, I get baptized. If not, no baptism, no worries. Ultimatums make me a little edgy, but I can see the value in it. One way or another, I'll know something by the end of it.

I have a lot of random little "what if"s running through my mind, but the missionaries I talked to assured me that if I have any doubts come the 25th, there won't be any pressure. Sounds fair. This is the first time I'll really be "testing" a faith in any sense. Should be interesting.

Congrats and good luck.  

[Tsuzuki]

mute_coyote

So, the Mormons made a deal with me: I pray and read the Book of Mormon, and if Yahweh confirms it (talks to me, etc...) by Oct. 25, I get baptized. If not, no baptism, no worries. Ultimatums make me a little edgy, but I can see the value in it. One way or another, I'll know something by the end of it.

I have a lot of random little "what if"s running through my mind, but the missionaries I talked to assured me that if I have any doubts come the 25th, there won't be any pressure. Sounds fair. This is the first time I'll really be "testing" a faith in any sense. Should be interesting.

Don't make any commitments until you've read the Doctrine and Covenants as well, as it will give you a greater understanding of what you're getting into.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/contents

Section 9 has particular relevance to receiving answers to prayers (and divination in general).

Quote:

"Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.

But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me."

- D&C 9:7-9

This is one of my favorites:

Quote:

"Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?

Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—

That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.

We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.

Hence many are called, but few are chosen.

No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—

Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;

That he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of death.

Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven.

The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever."

- D&C 121:34-46

Ultimatums are a violation of the above passage.


The Perl of Great Price, the third unique Mormon book of scripture, is fun but optional.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/pgp/contents  

[Your_Gaurdian_Angel92]

mute_coyote

So, the Mormons made a deal with me: I pray and read the Book of Mormon, and if Yahweh confirms it (talks to me, etc...) by Oct. 25, I get baptized. If not, no baptism, no worries. Ultimatums make me a little edgy, but I can see the value in it. One way or another, I'll know something by the end of it.

I have a lot of random little "what if"s running through my mind, but the missionaries I talked to assured me that if I have any doubts come the 25th, there won't be any pressure. Sounds fair. This is the first time I'll really be "testing" a faith in any sense. Should be interesting.

Good luck. It most likely will be interesting. My friends have been taking to their methodist church over the past few weeks and it doesn't make as much sense to me as when i went with my grandmother to her church (She's a Jehova's (i know i probrably spelled that wrong) Witness).  

[Autumnal Light]

Thanks for the support everybody.

@Tsuzuki - Passages and links are much appreciated.

Even though I've been asking about commandments and precepts before now, today was the first time the missionaries would tell me any. Even so, they only told me about the chastity one. Up till now, they've been giving me a background about the Mormon view of where we come from and why we're here. It makes sense from an educational standpoint: give the student the basics before moving on to more advanced material.

Still, it bothers me that they'd ask me to commit to being baptized by a certain date (if I get a response from Yahweh) before telling me any of the commandments of the religion I would be following. Right off the bat, I had some issues with the chastity thing due to differing opinions about homosexuality and gender issues. However, I am trying to be open-minded about this. I agreed that I would follow that particular commandment until October 25th and see if I got a response of any kind.

I'm slightly unsettled that the missionaries seem so certain that I'll receive some sort of divine communication and be ready to be baptized so soon. I'm looking at this as more of an experiment. ((NOTE: The reason I committed to a date in the first place was because the missionaries insisted that it would make it much more likely that I would get a response since it would show God I was serious about my quest.)) Of course, I'm trying to keep in mind that the attitude I put forth will affect the outcome of the experiment (just going through the motions wouldn't work since Mormonism isn't a purely orthopraxic religion). There is the issue that I don't want to cut my religious exploration short, and thus have a motive for not wanting to be converted in the near future. Still, without actually going through with the experiment, how will I know whether this religion really jives with me or not? Maybe I should try practicing something else simultaneously so I can compare the feelings I get from both...

Blah. In any case, I'm probably going to read part of Doctrine and Covenants tonight. I don't like being in the dark about anything this important.  

[Tsuzuki]

mute_coyote

There is the issue that I don't want to cut my religious exploration short, and thus have a motive for not wanting to be converted in the near future. Still, without actually going through with the experiment, how will I know whether this religion really jives with me or not? Maybe I should try practicing something else simultaneously so I can compare the feelings I get from both...

Joining the LDS church shouldn't cut your religious exploration short. I was raised LDS, and I'm all over the place religiously, and many early Mormon leaders encouraged that approach.

Quote:

"Have the Presbyterians any truth? Yes. Have the Baptists, Methodists, etc., any truth? Yes. They all have a little truth mixed with error. We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true 'Mormons.'"

- Joseph Smith, "Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith," p. 316.

Quote:

"One of the grand fundamental principles of "Mormonism" is to receive truth, let it come from whence it may."

- Joseph Smith (History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 5:499)

Quote:

"Although I was going to say I am not a Universalist, but I am, and I am also a Presbyterian, and a Roman Catholic, and a Methodist, in short, I believe in every true principle that is imbibed by any person or sect, and reject the false. If there is any truth in heaven, earth, or hell, I want to embrace it, I care not what shape it comes in to me, who brings it, or who believes in it, whether it is popular or unpopular. Truth, eternal truth, I wish to float in and enjoy."

- John Taylor, "Motives and Feelings of the Saints, etc." (Journal of Discourses 1:155)

Quote:

"If I do not learn what is in the world, from first to last, somebody will be wiser than I am. I intend to know the whole of it, both good and bad. Shall I practise evil? No; neither have I told you to practise it, but to learn by the light of truth every principle there is in existence in the world. [...] And inasmuch as the Lord Almighty has designed us to know all that is in the earth, both the good and the evil, and to learn not only what is in heaven, but what is in hell, you need not expect ever to get through learning. Though I mean to learn all that is in heaven, earth, and hell. Do I need to commit iniquity to do it? No. If I were to go into the bowels of hell to find out what is there, that does not make it necessary that I should commit one evil, or blaspheme in any way the name of my Maker."

- Brigham Young, "Organization and Development of Man" (Journal of Discourses 2:90)

Quote:

"Whether a truth be found with professed infidels, or with the Universalists, or the Church of Rome, or the Methodists, the Church of England, the Presbyterians, the Baptists, the Quakers, the Shakers, or any other of the various and numerous different sects and parties, all of whom have more or less truth, it is the business of the Elders of this Church (Jesus, their elder brother, being at their head,) to gather up all the truths in the world pertaining to life and salvation, to the Gospel we preach, to mechanism of every kind, to the sciences, and to philosophy, wherever it may be found in every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, and bring it to Zion.

The people upon this earth have a great many errors, and they have also a great many truths. This statement is not only true of the nations termed civilized--those. who profess to worship the true God, but is equally applicable to pagans of all countries, for in their religious rights and ceremonies may be found a great many truths which we will also gather home to Zion. All truth is for the salvation of the children of men--for their benefit and learning--for their furtherance in the principles of divine knowledge; and divine knowledge is any matter of fact--truth; and all truth pertains to divinity."

- Brigham Young, "Intelligence, Etc." (Journal of Discourses 7:283-284)

Quote:

"I want to say to my friends that we believe in all good. If you can find a truth in heaven, earth or hell, it belongs to our doctrine. We believe it; it is ours; we claim it. Is that right? If you find an error here, I ask you to leave it, pass it by, let it alone; do not embrace it in your faith, do not practice it in your lives. I say to all, to my brethren and sisters and to strangers, if we teach anything that is good, receive it, I beseech you. If we have any good in our doctrine, believe it and embrace it, it will do you good. If we have errors, do not embrace them. I have been trying, for almost forty years, to tell the people how to be saved. I have always made this proposition to every man I have conversed with on the subject of truth and error, 'If I have errors, I will give ten errors for a truth. Do you want to trade?'"

- Brigham Young, "Truth and Error" (Journal of Discourses 13:335)

Quote:

"A man in search of truth has no peculiar system to sustain, no peculiar dogma to defend or theory to uphold; he embraces all truth, and that truth, like the sun in the firmament, shines forth and spreads its effulgent rays over all creation, and if men will divest themselves of bias and prejudice, and prayerfully and conscientiously search after truth, they will find it wherever they turn their attention."

- John Taylor, "What the Gospel Teaches, etc." (Journal of Discourses 16:370)

Quote:

"Members of the Church are admonished to aquire learning by study; also, by faith and prayer; and to seek after everything that is virtuous, lovely or of good report, or praiseworthy. In this seeking after truth, they are not confined to narrow limits of dogma, or creed, but are free to launch into the realm of the infinite for they know that 'truth is truth where'er it is found, whether on Christian or on heathen ground.'"

- "True Education," remarks made by President David O. McKay at the dedication of the Church College of New Zealand, Temple View, New Zealand, April 24, 1958, as quoted in "David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism", by Gregory A. Prince and Wm. Robert Wright

 

[TeaDidikai]

mute_coyote

The reason I committed to a date in the first place was because the missionaries insisted that it would make it much more likely that I would get a response since it would show God I was serious about my quest.

An All Knowing God needs an arbitrary deadline in order to tell you are serious? confused  

[Tsuzuki]

TeaDidikai

mute_coyote

The reason I committed to a date in the first place was because the missionaries insisted that it would make it much more likely that I would get a response since it would show God I was serious about my quest.

An All Knowing God needs an arbitrary deadline in order to tell you are serious? confused

More than likely, she's dealing with a couple of missionaries who are more interested in upping their own stats, and would rather rush someone through than give the brownie points to someone else. I say screw 'em and take your time. I know someone who spent over a year as a "dry Mormon" before committing to anything.  

[TeaDidikai]

Tsuzuki

More than likely, she's dealing with a couple of missionaries who are more interested in upping their own stats, and would rather rush someone through than give the brownie points to someone else. I say screw 'em and take your time. I know someone who spent over a year as a "dry Mormon" before committing to anything.

Low Hanging Fruit and all that Jazz.  

[Tsuzuki]

TeaDidikai

Tsuzuki

More than likely, she's dealing with a couple of missionaries who are more interested in upping their own stats, and would rather rush someone through than give the brownie points to someone else. I say screw 'em and take your time. I know someone who spent over a year as a "dry Mormon" before committing to anything.

Low Hanging Fruit and all that Jazz.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzCcCacfnfU  

[TeaDidikai]

Thanks for the link.

Also- I'm interested in why Missionaries seem so resistant to presenting the D&C.  

[Autumnal Light]

TeaDidikai

mute_coyote

The reason I committed to a date in the first place was because the missionaries insisted that it would make it much more likely that I would get a response since it would show God I was serious about my quest.

An All Knowing God needs an arbitrary deadline in order to tell you are serious? confused

I've been wondering about that, too. I figured it was more of a psychological thing to ensure that I took my searching seriously. But if so, I wish they'd be straightforward about it.

@Tsuzuki: You may be right. The next time I see them I'll bring up the fact that I feel like I'd need more time to think. I'll still try reading, praying, and keeping commandments up through the 25th, but I'm not really seeing myself getting baptized that soon unless something miraculous happens. Anyway, thanks for the link. It was interesting and potentially shed some light on the situation.

Oh, and what's "Low Hanging Fruit" a reference to?  

[TeaDidikai]

mute_coyote

Oh, and what's "Low Hanging Fruit" a reference to?

Boxy and Tsuzuki are M&R's resident Educated Mormons.

Boxy once told of his experiences as a Missionary and how his Bishop once spoke of how some missionaries go for the "low hanging fruit" basically the baptisms which are within easy reach rather than working to convert the others that take effort to pick.  

[Autumnal Light]

So, I wasn't ever really planning/expecting anything to happen with the whole Mormon thing. I mean, I think the missionaries are a bit pushy, and the church requires a lot of time commitment.

But, that whole "burning in the bosom" thing? Well, I think I got that.

Huh...  

[TeaDidikai]

mute_coyote

So, I wasn't ever really planning/expecting anything to happen with the whole Mormon thing. I mean, I think the missionaries are a bit pushy, and the church requires a lot of time commitment.

But, that whole "burning in the bosom" thing? Well, I think I got that.

Huh...

Test it. wink Same thing I would say about any divine revelation really.

If it turns out to be verified- check to see how much of the doctrine of the church matches up with the way the Holy Spirit moves you.