Christian Wiccan - help?

[TeaDidikai]

MoonJeli

I always believed the major point of conflict was that all Wiccans are clergy of two specific deities (and the practice is for the gods and being mastered by the gods), and the Christian doctrine to have no god before YHVH. Am I misunderstanding the direct conflict between these two religions?

I'll grant it is easier with the more esoteric and mystic Christian traditions, but it raises a good question.

If a Hard Polytheist is bound to other gods first and foremost- are they still able to be initiated into the Wica assuming the only conflict is the spiritual dedication?  

[Morgandria]

MoonJeli

TeaDidikai

Morgandria

Wica's emphasis on sex, and the free expression of such, is greatly in conflict with Christianity's various sects and their doctrines about sex - or so I feel.

This is what I wanted to know. Thanks.

I'm well versed enough with Christendom that I can see why individuals would assume based on generic Christian doctrine why it is incompatible. I wanted to know what doctrines of The Wica made The Wica feel such.

So basically- sex. (Ete has a delightful paper on Christian reincarnation that would work just fine within the context of a Reconstructionist Christian tradition)

Is there anything else that comes to mind?

I always believed the major point of conflict was that all Wiccans are clergy of two specific deities (and the practice is for the gods and being mastered by the gods), and the Christian doctrine to have no god before YHVH. Am I misunderstanding the direct conflict between these two religions?

No, that is certainly one of the major points of conflict....but while Wiccans serve their Gods and their practice is for the gods alone, some Wiccans maintain other religious practices. As long as they're kept separate, the Wiccan practice maintained as is should be, and the Gods themselves feel they are being served properly, there's little reason in my mind why an initiated Wiccan cannot participate in other faiths. Other people may feel differently.

Other faiths, though, may or may not have issues with people practicing other faiths in a parallel configurations - so often the main source of issue in this particular conflict lies in on the side of the non-Wiccan faith.  

[Morgandria]

TeaDidikai

MoonJeli

I always believed the major point of conflict was that all Wiccans are clergy of two specific deities (and the practice is for the gods and being mastered by the gods), and the Christian doctrine to have no god before YHVH. Am I misunderstanding the direct conflict between these two religions?

I'll grant it is easier with the more esoteric and mystic Christian traditions, but it raises a good question.

If a Hard Polytheist is bound to other gods first and foremost- are they still able to be initiated into the Wica assuming the only conflict is the spiritual dedication?

I am bound to the service of other deities, previous to my initiation by many years. It hasn't been a problem for me. Should I ever stop serving any of the deities involved properly, I am certain they will draw my attention to it quite promptly.  

[TeaDidikai]

So while Wica unto itself is not soft polytheistic, soft polytheists within The Wica could justify their service as clergy to the Lord and Lady and as Christians, yes?  

[Morgandria]

TeaDidikai

So while Wica unto itself is not soft polytheistic, soft polytheists within The Wica could justify their service as clergy to the Lord and Lady and as Christians, yes?

I imagine so...although I have never met any other traditional Wiccans who also feel themselves to be Christian in any way. And I would think that in qualifying to be priesthood of the Gods of the Wica, you pretty much disqualify yourself for any sort of Christian priesthood.

I've seen people say they're honouring the Christian god in a practice that isn't Christianity - but how is that honouring that particular deity? He's pretty much laid down how he wants to be honoured, in creating Christianity. And trying to do it with Wiccan practice just makes what you're doing not Wiccan.

I don't personally feel Wicca and Christianity to reconcilable; you can't do both together, and still do either one properly. But I'm sure people do try - mostly because they don't know what Wicca really is.  

[TeaDidikai]

Morgandria

I imagine so...although I have never met any other traditional Wiccans who also feel themselves to be Christian in any way. And I would think that in qualifying to be priesthood of the Gods of the Wica, you pretty much disqualify yourself for any sort of Christian priesthood.

One wouldn't have to be part of a Christian Priesthood for them to be Christian though.

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I've seen people say they're honouring the Christian god in a practice that isn't Christianity - but how is that honouring that particular deity? He's pretty much laid down how he wants to be honoured, in creating Christianity.

My first instinct is to point out that the Christian deity laid out how he wanted to be worshiped to the Jews. wink Christianity is a tricky concept as it has very little in the way of a unifying theology.

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And trying to do it with Wiccan practice just makes what you're doing not Wiccan.

Without question- just as honoring another god one is dedicated to as a pagan within a Circle wouldn't be right either.

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I don't personally feel Wicca and Christianity to reconcilable; you can't do both together, and still do either one properly. But I'm sure people do try - mostly because they don't know what Wicca really is.

I'm asking because I haven't seen anything offered on the Wica side that prohibits it, and what I do see offered from the Christian side can be explained, justified or cited within some of the more heretical sects- keeping in mind that one must be of a theology to be a heretic, it looks possible to justify someone keeping their traditions separate while maintaining them both.  

[Morgandria]

TeaDidikai

One wouldn't have to be part of a Christian Priesthood for them to be Christian though.

Agreed.

TeaDidikai

My first instinct is to point out that the Christian deity laid out how he wanted to be worshiped to the Jews. wink Christianity is a tricky concept as it has very little in the way of a unifying theology.

*nods* I was thinking that the whole time I was posting, but couldn't articulate it. As I said, I'm not Judeo-Christian and never have been, so I've never done a whole lot of study surrounding it.

TeaDidikai

Without question- just as honoring another god one is dedicated to as a pagan within a Circle wouldn't be right either.

Exactly. There's plenty of space for it outside of Wicca proper.

TeaDidikai

I'm asking because I haven't seen anything offered on the Wica side that prohibits it, and what I do see offered from the Christian side can be explained, justified or cited within some of the more heretical sects- keeping in mind that one must be of a theology to be a heretic, it looks possible to justify someone keeping their traditions separate while maintaining them both.

*nods* I agree with you. If it was truly that important to you, then you'd do it. But I can't imagine being that person. There's so much work that goes into seeking Wicca, and then working to, and after, initiation, it's hard for me to fathom wanting to do through all that, and still maintain regular Christian worship. You still couldn't call yourself a Christian Wiccan. You'd be a Christian and a Wiccan.

I think a lot of the lack of comment on the idea from the Wica side might stem from the fact that I'd imagine it wasn't really ever in anyone's mind, in the early days, that someone would be of the Wica and still wish, or try, to be Christian.  

[TeaDidikai]

Morgandria

*nods* I agree with you. If it was truly that important to you, then you'd do it. But I can't imagine being that person. There's so much work that goes into seeking Wicca, and then working to, and after, initiation, it's hard for me to fathom wanting to do through all that, and still maintain regular Christian worship. You still couldn't call yourself a Christian Wiccan. You'd be a Christian and a Wiccan.

This all makes sense, and your notation about being a Christian and a Wiccan also makes sense in formal speech. The only issue I see is what happens when people start using religion as an adjective. sweatdrop

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I think a lot of the lack of comment on the idea from the Wica side might stem from the fact that I'd imagine it wasn't really ever in anyone's mind, in the early days, that someone would be of the Wica and still wish, or try, to be Christian.

Very likely- though Gardner did mention an individual who was a Christian and a Witch. While he doesn't explicitly state she was of the Wica, it was during the era when he used the two terms interchangeably.  

[Morgandria]

TeaDidikai

This all makes sense, and your notation about being a Christian and a Wiccan also makes sense in formal speech. The only issue I see is what happens when people start using religion as an adjective. sweatdrop

Granted.

TeaDidikai

Very likely- though Gardner did mention an individual who was a Christian and a Witch. While he doesn't explicitly state she was of the Wica, it was during the era when he used the two terms interchangeably.

Maybe she was one of the many people he initiated just because they sat still long enough. xd "Initiate first, ask questions later"...  

[TeaDidikai]

Morgandria

Maybe she was one of the many people he initiated just because they sat still long enough. xd "Initiate first, ask questions later"...

~laughs~ I don't even know if he initiated her or if she was from an unrelated tradition.

Ambiguity in source material gives me headaches.  

[PoeticVengeance]

Morgandria

PoeticVengeance

Wait... do Wiccans actually worship their deities? I admit I know very little of Wicca, so let me know where inaccuracies are cropping up.

It would help to know how you think of 'worship"

For the context of this discussion I'd be looking for the Christian definition of worship. Otherwise it wouldn't classify as idolatry. At least not based on what I understand of it.  

[wolfkatt]

wolfkatt Wrote:

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I have battled with this concept in my own mind and with discussions with my husband - me being a witch and he a Christian. Neither of us can see how melding the two religions can work appropriately and still being in keeping with some of the core concepts of each separate religion - two of the points being what was brought up in this discussion already - YVWH being a jealous God and the freedom/restrictions on the role of sex.

Tea wrote:

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Blending Witchcraft and Christendom isn't hard at all. But then, Witchcraft and Wica are not synonyms.

You misunderstood me - the concept of blending Wicca and Christianity together is what I was talking about - the topic brought up at the beginning of this thread. I know that you can blend witchcraft and Christianity (along with other religions) because the practice of witchcraft is just that - a practice and not a religion. I think where the confusion may have come in is mentioning that I am a Witch (not Wiccan either) and my husband a Christian. I was just saying that we have two different perspectives but were trying to see the evolution of teh two - Wicca a Christianity - combined.  

[TeaDidikai]

wolfkatt

You misunderstood me - the concept of blending Wicca and Christianity together is what I was talking about

Then why didn't you say you being of the Wica and him being Christian? Witch and Wica are not synonymous.

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I think where the confusion may have come in is mentioning that I am a Witch (not Wiccan either) and my husband a Christian. I was just saying that we have two different perspectives but were trying to see the evolution of teh two - Wicca a Christianity - combined.

Since you're not of the Wica- where would you find enough source material to even entertain the notion?  

[FenrirAldebrand]

Well, my own opinion on this subject is that this whole new Christian Wiccan thing is just completely out of whack because the two religions totally contadict each other.
The ten comandments say that you cannot worship any other god than God himself, and Wicca has a God and a Goddess so, techically, you would be worshipping another god, so then you would be committina a sin.
But that's just my opinion.  

[Tyrannical Princess]

Scarlet Angora Wolf

Well, my own opinion on this subject is that this whole new Christian Wiccan thing is just completely out of whack because the two religions totally contadict each other.
The ten comandments say that you cannot worship any other god than God himself, and Wicca has a God and a Goddess so, techically, you would be worshipping another god, so then you would be committina a sin.
But that's just my opinion.

Except that isn't what the Bible says.

Exodus 20:2-4

2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 "You shall have no other gods before me.

4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.

It says "You shall have no other gods BEFORE me." Not, "You shall have no other gods". Also, it could be argued that this law and the following law were intended only for the Hebrew people as repayment for bringing them out of slavery.