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 Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:27 am
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Quote: I don’t believe in that god. I am pretty sure I don’t believe in a god separated from nature…especially not a creator.
It seems illogical as I said in my first post for some being to create existence. At least in nature I can justify an extraordinary power as something that occurs naturally as part of science but we just don't know how to prove it yet, like many other things. It is still an unfounded guess, but it the closest thing so far I have come to merging logic and my gut.
Quote: Well I do my very best never to hurt anyone or anything in any way. It is extremely important to me. I do appreciate the clarification about the rede. I’m not sure if my non violent views will fit into whatever path I may be meant to belong to or if it will be a personal way of living. (Eclectic I suppose you would say.
Quote: Tea Patience- how do you define harm?
harm is (and this bothers me most when it is deliberate) anyone/thing is any type of injury (moral, metal, emotional, physical, etc.) Any time someone is badly effected in any sense as a direct response to what I do.
Quote: I know that when I learned that some Native American tribes believed in complete non violence I was very drawn to that...
Quote: Tea I would question that myself. There is a lot of romantic revisionism surrounding Native American tribes and the image of the "noble savage", I would question if it is a valid assertion.
Ok true I need to be certain..but regardless if they have earned that respect , regardless of if it is actually the first time it is begin used in a religion before I agree with it and integrate it.
Quote: I don’t believe that hell, the devil, or the monotheistic god which you speak exists or ever has.
Quote: tea I'm not talking about a monotheistic theology. I'm not sure why you keep coming back to that. And what is hell? What is the devil?
they are ideas I deem as false that many others believe to be real. If I misunderstood you then what theology were u discussing? You said those 4 letters for the god spoken of it in the judaio-christian bible so it is not rly monotheistic u r right, but I still don't believe in what I think u brought up.
Quote: tea And one other important question- given that objective reality is not effected by your personal opinions of it, what do you plan to do should the generational curses take hold?
in my opinion I believe that to remain in a religion you don't believe in just to avoid these curses is unjust and a terrible message to send to my future generations.
Quote: I’m an odd person, it comes with the territory of thinking so much..
Quote: tea I'm not odd, and I think a fair bit.
Ok, possibly I am just unique then. My theories are still only theories though, keep in mind I am not as close as I'd like to clarity..hence the thread.
Quote: Because I questioned why the rituals had to be that way…
Quote: tea Within an Eclectic tradition- they don't have to be any given way.
I suppose I could come up with my own versions once I am more clear about my path.
Quote: why does it have to involve the same symbols as others use, it just didn’t seem personal enough to me. I don’t like others telling me what days are more imp then others and how to celebrate it…I think it is between me and the rest of nature.
Quote: tea It has been a long time since I read Cunningham. I still feel I'd rather start from scratch then replace what doesn't appeal to me because I don't want to feel like a follower. I want to lead my own choices, I want to take the time to consider what is most important and why. Afterwards it may be of some help to compare with existing practices in case I prefer some. I'd also be more likely in my opinion to come up with original ideas if my mind does't have predetermined ideas of other examples. That said- what is your understanding of the mystical and pragmatic applications of symbols within spiritual contexts? Back inm y past I studied and struggled with having days were I felt very confident int he religion I thought I was in and not...once I had a steady time of confidence I stopped doing research in case it took away from that confidence. I feel now that it is actually best to investigate a lot so that I am really sure and if I am not sure I know waht I am lacking and what my goals are.
Quote: umm, matter can never be created or destroyed..things can break down but they will reassemble in a balanced way.
Wing? Someone? Isakane is half asleep while I am poking him to make sure my understanding is correct. Can someone confirm this?
I second that (someone wanna confirm that would be great)...I need a physics lesson it appears. I had some good books recommended to me so this summer may be a fun educational journey for me. When I know more or if someone answers the question tea just asked then maybe I can reply sooner. Newton still may have been right though, even if it seems he was disproved, it could be a scientific error that seems right but isn't.
Quote: I think I blocked out most of what I learned, not to mention a good portion of my childhood in general. I suppose it could not hurt to find out more about these curses but it seems as though they are just others beliefs and there is no reason for me to accept them as valid.
Quote: tea Interesting. I touched on this before- but this stance doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. Is there an element of your experiences that suggests that your inability to see such as a valid position is akin to it being invalid?
well people are entitled to their opinion...I could be wrong, they could be right...I respect the possibility if it so it is valid, but in all probability it isn't likely to actually be true. If there are those who wish to have faith in the slight possibility it may be true who am I to tell them there bad odds are definitely a waste.
Quote: But if you know where I could get more info I’d appreciate it. I’m sure I can also ask my mom about it, she seems to get a lot out of studying Judaism in more and more depth on any free time she has.
Quote: tea I provided the citations. Do you read Hebrew?
good question. I can read it, understanding it is another story..I learned Hebrew for 8 years but I forgot most of it and was never very good at it. My family is mostly pretty fluent. some words I remember the meaning to when I hear them but I doubt that would be enough.
Quote: Again I must have blocked it out, my mother would not be happy with the tuition money she scraped together that went to waste. But judging by your later post explaining it somewhat more…considering I do not believe in a creator god or the bible I’m not sure why it is important for me to accept it just because those people who are actual jews do.
Quote: tea There seems to be a fair amount of hostility towards the faith of your youth. Why is that?
I don't like the guilt associated with it for one...I hate the fact that there is so much emphasis on continuing throughout the generations not to lose all the sacrifices from before me. I think that there are cases in the old testament that make me angry at that god. I also don;t like being associated with something so illogical and the fact that my family among other jews insist I am part of them regardless of my different beleifs. To me religion is all about belief....if you don;t beleiv eit you are not part of it. |
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Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:45 am
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patience1984 It seems illogical as I said in my first post for some being to create existence. At least in nature I can justify an extraordinary power as something that occurs naturally as part of science but we just don't know how to prove it yet, like many other things. It is still an unfounded guess, but it the closest thign so far I have come to merging logic and my gut.
To discredit a position based on a lack of evidence is fallacious because the lack of evidence doesn't mean it is not there.
Does that make sense?
When it comes to the god I am speaking of, the understanding is that the laws of nature we generated by this force. Further- science does not pretend to tell people how the laws of nature came into being.
Quote: Patience- how do you define harm? harm is (and this bothers me most when it is deliberate) anyone/thing is any type of injury (moral, metal, emotional, physical, etc.) Any time someone is badly effected in any sense as a direct response to what I do.
Quote: Ok true I need to be certain..but regardless if they have earned that respect , regardless of if it is actually the first time it is begin used in a religion before I agree with it and integrate it.
Quote: they are ideas I deem as false that many others believe to be real.
Quote: If I misunderstood you then what theology were u discussing?
Quote: Ok, possibly I am just unique then.
Quote: well I'm not sure in detail what they are..I suppose part of me wanted to avoid it in case it made me paranoid. But I will be in touch with my mother tomorrow so I will begin finding out. I can't fully answer until I know the details of these curses...but so far in my opinion I believe that to remain in a religion you don't believe in just to avoid these curses is unjust and a terrible message to send to my future generations.
Quote: I suppose I could come up with my own versions once I am more clear about my path.
Quote: It has been a long time since I read Cunningham. I still feel I'd rather start from scratch then replace what doesn't appeal to me because I don't want to feel like a follower. I want to lead my own choices, I want to take the time to consider what is most important and why. Afterwards it may be of some help to compare with existing practices in case I prefer some. I'd also be more likely in my opinion to come up with original ideas if my mind does't have predetermined ideas of other examples.
Quote: Back inm y past I studied and struggled with having days were I felt very confident int he religion I thought I was in and not...once I had a steady time of confidence I stopped doing research in case it took away from that confidence. I feel now that it is actually best to investigate a lot so that I am really sure and if I am not sure I know waht I am lacking and what my goals are.
What merit does symbolism have within ritual? What use is it?
Quote: well people are entitled to their opinion...I could be wrong, they could be right...I respect the possibility if it so it is valid, but in all probability it isn't likely to actually be true. If there are those who wish to have faith in the slight possibility it may be true who am I to tell them there bad odds are definitely a waste.
Quote: I don't like the guilt associated with it for one...I hate the fact that there is so much emphasis on continuing throughout the generations not to lose all the sacrifices from before me. I think that there are cases in the old testament that make me angry at that god. I also don;t like ebign associated with something so illogical and the fact that my family among other jews insist I am part of them regardless of my different beleifs. To me religion is all about belief....if you don;t beleiv eit you are not part of it.
Further- what makes you mad at YHVH? Could you provide chapter and verse examples?
Given the definition of an argument from ignorance- does your position that such beliefs are illogical change?
Also- guilt by association is illogical- if you are repulsed by that which is illogical, why do you commit the fallacies we see in your arguments?
As a final note- I bolded some of your positions. The parts I bolded are classic phrases one heres when developing personal autonomy- which is a natural part of developmental psychology.
It would appear that your positions stemming from this are reactionary rather than being born of gnosis. If I am mistaken in this- you'll have to pardon me. But if not- it seems that such positions are leading you towards an illogical and harmful place where you harm those you love and future generations because you have an irrational desire to be "Not Them", which can be explored rationally to develop valid personal understandings without harming those around you. |
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Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:43 pm
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TeaDidikai I'm sorry Cricket- you've confused me. Can we start over again so I don't misunderstand your point? Are members of the Long House traditions and other indigenous tribal faiths neo-pagans?
then, no, I would not call them neo-pagans. That was my point.
TeaDidikai CricketBrain Maybe, to me, there's a spiritual difference, something I'm still working on. I'd be interested in seeing this explained. |
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Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:34 pm
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TeaDidikai patience1984 It seems illogical as I said in my first post for some being to create existence. At least in nature I can justify an extraordinary power as something that occurs naturally as part of science but we just don't know how to prove it yet, like many other things. It is still an unfounded guess, but it the closest thign so far I have come to merging logic and my gut. Quote: tea I think you're confusing a thing being illogical with something being unfathomable- as your assertion that it is illogical and thus invalid is actually a fallacy. It's called "Argument from Ignorance" or "Argument from a lack of Imagination". I do not mean that it is invalid, I thought I made that clear when I spoke about respecting those who do believe it to be true, ...what I mean is that it seems unlikely. To a degree anything on this subject is somewhat unfathomable because it is very complicated and there is a lot of information we do not know. However, I have given it a great deal of thought in the past and now and when I said illogical I meant it. I will try to explain so it is more clear. Equilibrioception makes sense to me because I can observe it. An example is humans and plants helping the other to breath. It is of course possible that the god of which you speak created it that way. But from a scientific perspective I have no evidence so it is less logical in my eyes. It makes more sense to me that people invented the idea of that god to explain it. There is no evidence he exists or ever did. If something has not surfaced what is the probability it exists...it may but it most likely doesn't. There are also plenty of parts of the bible that seem very fishy to me, so if that actually has any real relationship to that god then it is another case of that possibility losing ground to me. Quote: : tea To discredit a position based on a lack of evidence is fallacious because the lack of evidence doesn't mean it is not there. It could be there...so could a giant balloon filled with bottle caps balancing on the wings of an immortal flying elephant...just because anything is possible doesn't mean I should not question it's probability. Quote: tea Does that make sense? When it comes to the god I am speaking of, the understanding is that the laws of nature we generated by this force. Further- science does not pretend to tell people how the laws of nature came into being. I don't think that force generated it because it is unlikely that force exists. It seems like an easy way to answer the question of where it all came from...we can't explain it because it is this higher power..but let's just trust him because he knows what he is talking about. I prefer to get to the bottom of things myself, even if it is only the struggle and never getting the answers I want. science may not tell us yet how the laws of nature came in to being as you have said...but I believe the answers are out there, and it is possible for us to figure it out after enough exploration(quite a lot though). I see nature working now so I have trust if it works now then it worked in some amazing way back then..I may not have been there but nature has earned my trust....that god u have spoken of has not. Quote: Patience- how do you define harm? harm is (and this bothers me most when it is deliberate) anyone/thing is any type of injury (moral, metal, emotional, physical, etc.) Any time someone is badly effected in any sense as a direct response to what I do. Quote: tea Are you aware that you are harming people by using the internet? The power companies have facilities maintained to supply electricity to your computer that have accidents caused through basic maintenance- maintenance that you benefit from when you log online or turn on your lights. o no, I entirely disagree with that...I said I had to be the direct cause of the harm. The workers know the risks, they have decided to enter into the profession anyway I can't be held accountable for them choosing to stand in the line of fire. Quote: Ok true I need to be certain..but regardless if they have earned that respect , regardless of if it is actually the first time it is being used in a religion before I agree with it and integrate it. Quote: tea Why are you assuming it was religious in nature? I never said or meant it was religious by nature...simply that it may or may not be as aspect of existing religion/s and either way I agree with it. Quote: they are ideas I deem as false that many others believe to be real. Quote: tea What ideas are false? What about them is in error? sorry, I should have said "I deem as most likely to be false." Quote: If I misunderstood you then what theology were u discussing? Quote: tea I was speaking of a panentheistic theology. k, ty 4 the clarification. Quote: Ok, possibly I am just unique then. Quote: tea I'll comment on this later. I look forward to it. Quote: well I'm not sure in detail what they are..I suppose part of me wanted to avoid it in case it made me paranoid. But I will be in touch with my mother tomorrow so I will begin finding out. I can't fully answer until I know the details of these curses...but so far in my opinion I believe that to remain in a religion you don't believe in just to avoid these curses is unjust and a terrible message to send to my future generations. Quote: tea The question then becomes why do you not believe in it and what elements about not harming others would you consider unjust given that your actions effect those who come after you? Shemot 34:6-7 after reading this it seems to refer to wrong actions. I am a very moral person so I don;t see why the curse would apply in this case. If the argument is that I am breaking one of the ten commandments and that is wrong then guilty as charged. Devarim 11:26-28 this one is much more specific and definitely seems to outright curse me for not believing in that god. Maybe because I believe he is a slight possibility I am exempt? This is a perfect example by the way of me having good reason to be upset at this god. (if he exists and he meant it to be written that way.) I don't know what is worse..the fact that he is so egocentric he has to forbid one to follow their own beleifs, or the fact that he is so spiteful that if anyone breaks that they deserve to be cursed...and in this case even those who have not broken it being cursed..how dare he condemn those who have done nothing wrong because they are related to someone who did. I don't believe children are responsible for the mistakes that came before them...it is extremely unjust. Sorry but I don't make the decision Pascal did...I decide on believing and having freedom of my own thoughts. As far as if it is actually true me causing harm on my future family and that going against my deep beleifs not to I see it as a lose lose scenario. What is hurting them more?...to have them deal with this curse or for them to be imprisoned by it and even if they did not break it see how their mother gave up her freedom to think. fortunately it probably isn't true. those negative characteristics seem much more likely to be part of the human/s who wrote it who wanted to make people afraid of leaving the faith they agree with. Quote: It has been a long time since I read Cunningham. I still feel I'd rather start from scratch then replace what doesn't appeal to me because I don't want to feel like a follower. I want to lead my own choices, I want to take the time to consider what is most important and why. Afterwards it may be of some help to compare with existing practices in case I prefer some. I'd also be more likely in my opinion to come up with original ideas if my mind does't have predetermined ideas of other examples. Quote: tea I'm curious. How would you define original in this sense? original: Not derived from something else Quote: Back in my past I studied and struggled with having days were I felt very confident in the religion I thought I was in and not...once I had a steady time of confidence I stopped doing research in case it took away from that confidence. I feel now that it is actually best to investigate a lot so that I am really sure and if I am not sure I know waht I am lacking and what my goals are. Quote: tea That doesn't really answer my question. What merit does symbolism have within ritual? What use is it? I'm not sure if it does. But the rituals I know about usually include them. It is even more of a reason for me to start from scratch so that I can determine after thought if they have merit. Quote: well people are entitled to their opinion...I could be wrong, they could be right...I respect the possibility if it so it is valid, but in all probability it isn't likely to actually be true. If there are those who wish to have faith in the slight possibility it may be true who am I to tell them there bad odds are definitely a waste. Quote: tea To be frank, I find this rather insulting in so much that it is a hypocrisy. Probability is a function of quantifiable concepts- nothing we are addressing here is falsifiable and thus the argument that it is a function of probability is fallacious. Further- it does not address other dynamics of theological systems- such as metaphorical understandings of the universe. I'm glad u are being frank, and I am sorry that I was unintentionally insulting. Can you please go into more detail about your side of this. You are saying that I should believe strongly in the immortal elephant and everything else that might possibly exist? metaphorical understandings are dynamics that most likely are part of nature...so it does fit....even if you still disagree with my position of "quantifiable concepts." Quote: I don't like the guilt associated with it for one...I hate the fact that there is so much emphasis on continuing throughout the generations not to lose all the sacrifices from before me. I think that there are cases in the old testament that make me angry at that god. I also don;t like ebign associated with something so illogical and the fact that my family among other jews insist I am part of them regardless of my different beleifs. To me religion is all about belief....if you don;t beleiv eit you are not part of it. Quote: tea Wow. I find this a little depressing to be honest. You are aware that being Jewish is both an ethnic and theological condition? sorry that is an opinion that a lot of people, especially many jews, seem to share. I find it only theological. It is true I may have ancestors who come from the same place...but as far as I am concerned it is about beleifs. If they belief in the ideals of judaism they are jewish...if they feel it is most likely nonesense then they are not jewish..the end. People can disagree with me but it doesn't mean that this concept that has been passed down is anything more then a concept. Quote: tea Further- what makes you mad at YHVH? Could you provide chapter and verse examples? sure I can and will. I used to make a hobby of it a while back. I don;t own a bible so I'll need to readress this after I visit my mom, should be soon. But I already do have the example I mentioned about of the curse verses you gave me. I could start to give examples like god making a father think that they would be orced to kill their son for petty reasons....but I will wait until I have that exact citations for you. Quote: tea Given the definition of an argument from ignorance- does your position that such beliefs are illogical change? I think I addressed that above, but if you have more questions or want more details, ask away. Quote: tea Also- guilt by association is illogical- if you are repulsed by that which is illogical, why do you commit the fallacies we see in your arguments? I'll have to answer this after you have answered if I still have fallacies in your opinion (and why) after reading my clarifications above. Quote: tea As a final note- I bolded some of your positions. The parts I bolded are classic phrases one heres when developing personal autonomy- which is a natural part of developmental psychology. It would appear that your positions stemming from this are reactionary rather than being born of gnosis. If I am mistaken in this- you'll have to pardon me. But if not- it seems that such positions are leading you towards an illogical and harmful place where you harm those you love and future generations because you have an irrational desire to be "Not Them", which can be explored rationally to develop valid personal understandings without harming those around you.
sorry but I do feel you are mistaken. I certainly did go through a "not them" stage, it was a long time ago in 7th-11th grade. I have moved past that. If it seems that I want to prove my autonomy it is probably because I get annoyed at so many people automatically assuming I am part of something I am not because many others think I am. I don't care if the entire world thinks I am, if I am not then I am not. However, I do know that in your case you are just trying to see all of the possibilities to hep me...and I do appreciate it. It is also more then gnosis...it is not just me being intuitive...it is something I have spent a lot of time considering. I look forward to your future thoughts. |
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Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:32 pm
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patience1984 I do not mean that it is invalid, I thought I made that clear when I spoke about respecting those who do believe it to be true, ...what I mean is that it seems unlikely. To a degree anything on this subject is somewhat unfathomable because it is very complicated and there is a lot of information we do not know. However, I have given it a great deal of thought in the past and now and when I said illogical I meant it.
Quote: But from a scientific perspective I have no evidence so it is less logical in my eyes.
Quote: It makes more sense to me that people invented the idea of that god to explain it. There is no evidence he exists or ever did. If something has not surfaced what is the probability it exists...it may but it most likely doesn't.
Quote: There are also plenty of parts of the bible that seem very fishy to me,
Quote: It could be there...so could a giant balloon filled with bottle caps balancing on the wings of an immortal flying elephant...just because anything is possible doesn't mean I should not question it's probability.
I request that if you are going to use the term logical and imply that your position is such, you have a better understanding of what logic actually is. The redux to absurdity is a bit of an insult to the time and effort I am putting into my responses to you.
Quote: I don't think that force generated it because it is unlikely that force exists.
Quote: It seems like an easy way to answer the question of where it all came from.
Quote: ..we can't explain it because it is this higher power.
Quote: but let's just trust him because he knows what he is talking about.
Quote: I prefer to get to the bottom of things myself,
Quote: even if it is only the struggle and never getting the answers I want.
Quote: science may not tell us yet how the laws of nature came in to being as you have said...but I believe the answers are out there, and it is possible for us to figure it out after enough exploration(quite a lot though).
Quote: I see nature working now so I have trust if it works now then it worked in some amazing way back then..I may not have been there but nature has earned my trust....that god u have spoken of has not.
Further- is nature truly to be trusted? I ask as someone who has been struck by lightening and seen the devastation wrought by landslides, flash floods, poisonous critters, droughts, forest fires... etc.
Quote: o no, I entirely disagree with that...I said I had to be the direct cause of the harm. The workers know the risks, they have decided to enter into the profession anyway I can't be held accountable for them choosing to stand in the line of fire.
Let's make this more personal though. Your faith and culture are important to your parents. Why are you harming them by rejecting both the culture and the theology without a preponderance of evidence that compels one to accept it's invalidity as fact?
If your answer is that their harm is justified in the face of your desire to not have to follow those expectations- would you amend your moral stance to reflect this? That you will avoid harm unless you personally dislike the results that not inflicting that harm will cause?
Quote: sorry, I should have said "I deem as most likely to be false."
Quote: k, ty 4 the clarification.
Quote: Shemot 34:6-7 after reading this it seems to refer to wrong actions. I am a very moral person so I don;t see why the curse would apply in this case.
Quote: If the argument is that I am breaking one of the ten commandments and that is wrong then guilty as charged.
Quote: Devarim 11:26-28 this one is much more specific and definitely seems to outright curse me for not believing in that god. Maybe because I believe he is a slight possibility I am exempt?
Quote: This is a perfect example by the way of me having good reason to be upset at this god. (if he exists and he meant it to be written that way.) I don't know what is worse..the fact that he is so egocentric he has to forbid one to follow their own beleifs,
Quote: or the fact that he is so spiteful that if anyone breaks that they deserve to be cursed...
Quote: and in this case even those who have not broken it being cursed..how dare he condemn those who have done nothing wrong because they are related to someone who did.
Quote: I don't believe children are responsible for the mistakes that came before them...it is extremely unjust.
Quote: Sorry but I don't make the decision Pascal did...I decide on believing and having freedom of my own thoughts.
Quote: As far as if it is actually true me causing harm on my future family and that going against my deep beleifs not to I see it as a lose lose scenario. What is hurting them more?...to have them deal with this curse or for them to be imprisoned by it and even if they did not break it see how their mother gave up her freedom to think.
Quote: those negative characteristics seem much more likely to be part of the human/s who wrote it who wanted to make people afraid of leaving the faith they agree with.
Quote: original: Not derived from something else
Quote: I'm not sure if it does. But the rituals I know about usually include them. It is even more of a reason for me to start from scratch so that I can determine after thought if they have merit.
Quote: You are saying that I should believe strongly in the immortal elephant and everything else that might possibly exist?
Quote: metaphorical understandings are dynamics that most likely are part of nature...so it does fit....even if you still disagree with my position of "quantifiable concepts."
The world is not made of science alone. There are things of value that you seem to be ignoring, such as art, feeling, metaphor.
Quote: sorry that is an opinion that a lot of people, especially many jews, seem to share. I find it only theological.
Quote: People can disagree with me but it doesn't mean that this concept that has been passed down is anything more then a concept.
Quote: sure I can and will. I used to make a hobby of it a while back. I don;t own a bible so I'll need to readress this after I visit my mom, should be soon. But I already do have the example I mentioned about of the curse verses you gave me. I could start to give examples like god making a father think that they would be orced to kill their son for petty reasons....but I will wait until I have that exact citations for you.
Quote: I think I addressed that above, but if you have more questions or want more details, ask away.
Quote: sorry but I do feel you are mistaken. I certainly did go through a "not them" stage, it was a long time ago in 7th-11th grade. I have moved past that. If it seems that I want to prove my autonomy it is probably because I get annoyed at so many people automatically assuming I am part of something I am not because many others think I am. I don't care if the entire world thinks I am, if I am not then I am not. |
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Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:35 pm
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TeaDidikai patience1984 I do not mean that it is invalid, I thought I made that clear when I spoke about respecting those who do believe it to be true, ...what I mean is that it seems unlikely. To a degree anything on this subject is somewhat unfathomable because it is very complicated and there is a lot of information we do not know. However, I have given it a great deal of thought in the past and now and when I said illogical I meant it. Quote: Tea Then you don't know what the word illogical means. Logic is a way of thinking. Your assertions violate this way of thinking. Your assertions are illogical- they are fallacious. Obviously we disagree about that. I don’t think they are fallacious, I spent a lot of time trying to make that clear in my last post…are you sure you really thought out what I had to say. I know I thought about your argument a lot. If you still disagree after giving what I wrote more thought then please explain why my last detailed post was doesn’t prove that my beliefs are not illogical in your view? Quote: But from a scientific perspective I have no evidence so it is less logical in my eyes. Quote: Tea Science doesn't pretend to address such. Deities are by definition non-falsifiable. I'm confused as to why you are applying this standard improperly. I am fully aware that deities are non-falsifiable…which is why I have made it clear I can not be sure they don’t exist. But I can still make a hypothesis with as much of a case as I can. Why not try to make the most educated guesses I can? I’m not saying science does, I am saying I do. I don’t see how it is improper at all. Quote: It makes more sense to me that people invented the idea of that god to explain it. There is no evidence he exists or ever did. If something has not surfaced what is the probability it exists...it may but it most likely doesn't. Quote: Tea This is another illogical statement. The idea that a lack of evidence is reason to suggest there is evidence of the lack is at the very heart of why your position is illogical. You have repeated that point again and again..I am surprised that you are continuing to repeat it when I backed up what I had to say in my last post. I was hoping for you to either agree or give a specific reason why you disagree with that, not the same point that you made before my last post. Quote: There are also plenty of parts of the bible that seem very fishy to me, I already said that I’m waiting to see my mother this week to get her bible so I can give you exacts. Please be patient. Quote: It could be there...so could a giant balloon filled with bottle caps balancing on the wings of an immortal flying elephant...just because anything is possible doesn't mean I should not question it's probability. Quote: Tea First of all, this is a bit insulting. Have you taken the time to read that link on logical fallacies? I am sorrier then I can express that you are insulted by anything I have said. As far as I am concerned the elephant is almost if not just as likely as the deity or any other idea humans have come up with. It seems most likely that the ideas of Judaism, among other religions were invented in people’s brains and not based on truth…If there are those who disagree I respect their opinion. I’m not saying it is not possible at all…I said probability, not that I was definitely sure…according to the link my case is: “A good inductive argument is known as a strong (or "cogent") inductive argument. It is such that if the premises are true, the conclusion is likely to be true.” Quote: Tea I request that if you are going to use the term logical and imply that your position is such, you have a better understanding of what logic actually is. The redux to absurdity is a bit of an insult to the time and effort I am putting into my responses to you. I was making the point that the idea that diety can be seen as absurd as well. I am putting a lot of time into this too and I think I have made it clear how grateful I am that you are helping me. If you think that I don’t understand what logical is then I will define how I mean it applies to my beliefs. Hopefully that will help because I think you are mistaken that I don’t understand. I may not be as well read yes but I am standing on firm ground because I think things out very carefully and I continually try to enhance my understandings and views. When I say logic I mean that through deductive reasoning I think up a most probable conclusion. It doesn’t mean the conclusion is 100% accurate, just that it is most likely. I have used the logic to come up with it so I can feel assured that the chances are in my favor that I am correct. Quote: I don't think that force generated it because it is unlikely that force exists. Quote: Tea You haven't really done anything to explain why you don't think that other than you can't fathom it. I’m pretty sure I have, please review my last post more if you have not already. Forgive me if I am mistaken but it seems you have ignored most of what I had said in that post or never gave it a chance…I’m trying not to assume it’s because you are certain that you are right or that my words are not worth your time. Maybe I was not clear enough or too subtle. Whatever the case is I feel I have shown you why I feel it is not about fathoming it. If you still disagree then describe why you feel what I have shown you is not valid instead of repeating the initial point. Quote: It seems like an easy way to answer the question of where it all came from. Quote: Tea To be honest- people who address Jewish Cosmology as easy are ignorant. There is a complex and amazingly beautiful parallel between Jewish mysticism and scientific fact as well as other schools of philosophy- Monism amongst them. First of all, are you are aware that you are generalizing with your first sentence? It can be amazing and beautiful and all sorts of wonderful things but I am talking about how honestly it came about and how likely it is to be true. I’m talking about saying “a being with a higher power must have created us because any other explanation is not in our reach”…to me that is easy. Quote: ..we can't explain it because it is this higher power. This is an improper assertion. The idea that at a point we can no longer express our understandings (or lack there of) is not the same as writing off science or ignoring the search for knowledge. I never said it was the same. It seems you have misunderstood me. I’m talking about saying that the deity created everything as an answer to how existence began. When did I ever say that jews who believe in that creation ignore science or nature? I’m fully aware the idea can and are merged by many. I simply don’t feel the deity’s presence is likely and that sticking god in as a reason for creation is definitely easy. It is like saying there is this experiment and the end result is wonderful but we have no idea how that experiment began…so because we don’t know the answer it must have been some “magic ball with powers” or whatever substitute you want to put in their for the analogy. Quote: but let's just trust him because he knows what he is talking about. Quote: Tea Who is suggesting this? Surely not I. I think your taking some of what I am saying out of context. It is part of the same point from above. I’m sry if that was unclear. Quote: I prefer to get to the bottom of things myself, Quote: Tea This is why your position puzzles me. You seem to discard things based on fallacious positions and incomplete understandings. Now I am the one who seems to be repetitive when I say: I don’t think it is fallacious. Because I can’t be totally certain I feel the best I can do to come up with the most logical answer as I have said. If you think a more complete understanding will help then please provide it. I will definitely think out any “incomplete understandings” you feel are important that you think I am missing on the matter. So far the element in Judaism that is most basic is that deity…and considering my feeling that so even if here and their there are parts of the culture I appreciate and agree with I can’t call myself part of it. Quote: even if it is only the struggle and never getting the answers I want. Quote: tea confused For the sake of my curiosity- does this seem hypocritical to you? No it doesn’t. There are answers that I want that through thought and scientific development I may never get in my lifetime…if I feel I am going in the right direction by sticking with having faith in nature that has proven itself so far it is very different then not getting the answers from that deity who has never proven itself. Quote: science may not tell us yet how the laws of nature came in to being as you have said...but I believe the answers are out there, and it is possible for us to figure it out after enough exploration(quite a lot though). Quote: tea I see nothing in this position that contradicts the tradition of your birth. Your leaving out the fact that I feel the god that runs that tradition probably is not real. Quote: I see nature working now so I have trust if it works now then it worked in some amazing way back then..I may not have been there but nature has earned my trust....that god u have spoken of has not. Quote: tea You seem to be assuming that they are independent of one another. Why? Again, why should I include god as a likely variable when he seems so improbable? Quote: Tea Further- is nature truly to be trusted? I ask as someone who has been struck by lightening and seen the devastation wrought by landslides, flash floods, poisonous critters, droughts, forest fires... etc. It is to be trusted because those negative things are part of what makes everything balanced. I’m pretty sure that good comes because of it. Quote: o no, I entirely disagree with that...I said I had to be the direct cause of the harm. The workers know the risks, they have decided to enter into the profession anyway I can't be held accountable for them choosing to stand in the line of fire. Quote: tea But they do so because of economic pressures that you contribute to. You could live without electricity and thus avoid your part in their harm. Economic pressures are one of many things I intend to help fix in this world, hopefully by the time I’m still around in it to see it. However, there are plenty of other jobs these people could have found…they considered the pros and cons and chose the profession. If I am practicing with a sword I can’t be held responsible if people choose to run in front of it. Quote: Tea Let's make this more personal though. Your faith and culture are important to your parents. Why are you harming them by rejecting both the culture and the theology without a preponderance of evidence that compels one to accept it's invalidity as fact? The invalidity will never be fact,..it will be as close as it will come and so far that is it the direction it is going. Again this example is hurt that is not being caused by me but by them. If they would honor my own freedom to think above the guilt they have been brainwashed with instead of trying to pass that guilt onto me then they would not be in pain. They are adults and are responsible for feeling my rejection is more important then my freedom. Quote: tea If your answer is that their harm is justified in the face of your desire to not have to follow those expectations- would you amend your moral stance to reflect this? That you will avoid harm unless you personally dislike the results that not inflicting that harm will cause? It doesn’t need to be amended; I am not the direct reason for harm as I have just explained. Quote: sorry, I should have said "I deem as most likely to be false." I was referring to the idea of the Jewish god and bible being likely to be all the truth many others feel it is. Quote: k, ty 4 the clarification. Quote: Tea You seem to be making that assumption even after the clarification. Yes I am making the same educated assumption because a god or gods are too unlikely for me to say “yes, I definitely believe in them.” Back when I thought buckland was being honest I had a discussion with a maybe wiccan friend and he said to me that the reason we called them gods or goddesses was because it was easier for our brains to accept because monotheism is so much pushed at us while we grow up..but that in truth the god and goddess are nature. We are worshiping nature..when he said that I felt even more drawn to it(even though now I question how any of it actually relates to wicca, the idea still resonates with me. Are you saying that scientific pantheism is an invalid religion or just that if that is where I may be leaning towards I am unfounded or both? Quote: Shemot 34:6-7 after reading this it seems to refer to wrong actions. I am a very moral person so I don’t see why the curse would apply in this case. Quote: tea You're breaking a covenant. I don’t agree that I am….you can’t just be born into an agreement. It is a contract (if it even is real) I have chosen not to agree o…u need to sides to have that deal. Quote: If the argument is that I am breaking one of the ten commandments and that is wrong then guilty as charged. Quote: tea And you are okay with breaking this covenant... why? What does that do to your honor? I just explained that…and as far as my honor is concerned….who is so imp that it matters what my reputation is to them…a possibly existing god who I find great fault with? The founding fathers of this country put their honor to Britain on the line, I think they did the right thing too. Quote: Devarim 11:26-28 this one is much more specific and definitely seems to outright curse me for not believing in that god. Maybe because I believe he is a slight possibility I am exempt? Quote: Tea If I decide I don't have to pay my rent- does that mean my Land Lord's have to accept that, refrain from eviction proceedings and not report it to the Credit Companies? If I disagreed with the landlord as much as I do with this god then I’d rather sleep on the street then live in that apartment. I’d rather be dead and not earn my “rent” here on earth if it means giving up my freedom to believe my own thoughts. Quote: This is a perfect example by the way of me having good reason to be upset at this god. (if he exists and he meant it to be written that way.) I don't know what is worse..the fact that he is so egocentric he has to forbid one to follow their own beleifs, Quote: tea Why is it egocentric for him to outline what he expects in exchange for the gift of life and his protection? What element of justified entitlement is egocentric? Because his expectations are self indulgent to the point of being conceited. Why give us the right to think for ourselves if he expects us to have to believe in him? Quote: or the fact that he is so spiteful that if anyone breaks that they deserve to be cursed... Quote: Tea I'm inclined to agree with him myself. In the analogy above, it is the same as me being put in jail for theft. good if he thinks so then let him kill me so be it,..it is better then believing and worshiping someone so corrupt. I doubt he will though because he probably isn’t there…either way I mean what I have said. Quote: and in this case even those who have not broken it being cursed..how dare he condemn those who have done nothing wrong because they are related to someone who did. Quote: tea It's as justified as my husband being responsible for being on the rent should I refuse to pay while I am in jail. Your analogy is becoming flawed here. Even if the rest of the family was paying their rent they would still be cursed because of someone else’s decision. The innocent are punished,…can’t get much more unjust then that. Quote: I don't believe children are responsible for the mistakes that came before them...it is extremely unjust. Quote: tea Why does your personal opinion have more value on what is and is not just than YHVH's? in a way , yes, because I know I exist and I don’t know he does and even if he did..also why should I value an unjust being’s opinion more then my own? Quote: Sorry but I don't make the decision Pascal did...I decide on believing and having freedom of my own thoughts. Quote: tea Freedom does not mean there are no repercussions for your actions. It seems like god is being a bully, but so be it. Bring on the repercussions; freedom is the most important thing. Quote: As far as if it is actually true me causing harm on my future family and that going against my deep beliefs not to I see it as a lose lose scenario. What is hurting them more?...to have them deal with this curse or for them to be imprisoned by it and even if they did not break it see how their mother gave up her freedom to think. Quote: tea To be honest- I think this is a false dichotomy. My suspicion is that you are fairly ignorant of the traditions of your youth and that as a result, you are missing the elements that support all your positions within that faith. Why, because I don’t agree with you? Do you feel it would be better if everyone shared your same religious beliefs? Also, why do you seem to cast aside freedom of thought as trivial? I lready admitted that I stopped believing in the likelihood of the main aspects of jewdaism a while ago and that I can’t remember most of what I learned…so of course part of me is ignorant in this respect. I’m not sure what specifically you feel I would add to this particular dichotomy? Quote: those negative characteristics seem much more likely to be part of the human/s who wrote it who wanted to make people afraid of leaving the faith they agree with. Quote: tea Interesting. How do you feel about the moral stance that you are making decisions for others against their will and how it parallels with what you are so angry at YHVH for? I’m not making that decision. If a gunman says he will kill a hostage if I don’t do something I find horrid am I responsible for the hostage’s death if the gunman pulls the trigger? No, he is. Please explain what you mean by “and how it parallels with what you are so angry at YHVH for?” in that sentence. Quote: original: Not derived from something else Quote: tea Do you think that is possible in a theological context? Yes, creativity can bring originality. Quote: I'm not sure if it does. But the rituals I know about usually include them. It is even more of a reason for me to start from scratch so that I can determine after thought if they have merit. Quote: tea Or study basic psychology. Why reinvent the wheel? I heard once from a science teacher of mine that sometimes younger people have an easier time solving problems because they haven’t had other people’s beliefs of what is or is not possible crammed in their heads as much yet. It is like when I go to an art museum…I think it makes more sense to experience the work of art on my own and then read about it. If I read about it first I may loose important experiences with it. Maybe there is something even better then the wheel, but if I already accept the wheel it may stifle my ability to fully see beyond it. Quote: You are saying that I should believe strongly in the immortal elephant and everything else that might possibly exist? Quote: tea I am saying that the subtle contempt you treat the theistic perspective as illogical is a double standard because your positions are just as illogical if not more so than most of the theistic ones- at least the Theistic positions understand that there is more to value than the literal and they have a better grasp of the dynamics of evidence, logic and gnosis. Does it? Please explain further. Perhaps you will persuade me but so far I disagree. I know there that other things then the literal are valuable. Those things though can be interpreted as a part of nature. I happen to be an artist…and when I make a painting I feel that there is something inside me driving me to do so…I fail to see how that aspect of me doesn’t fit within science? Quote: metaphorical understandings are dynamics that most likely are part of nature...so it does fit....even if you still disagree with my position of "quantifiable concepts." Quote: tea I'm not sure you understood what I meant when I listed metaphorical understandings as a valid position. The world is not made of science alone. There are things of value that you seem to be ignoring, such as art, feeling, metaphor. I just addressed that. Why do you view science and nature as if they can’t include non literal things? They are factual just because they are not obvious to us still. Quote: sorry that is an opinion that a lot of people, especially many jews, seem to share. I find it only theological. Quote: tea Then you have a broken understanding of your culture. Being Jewish culture includes art, language, music, food- traditions that transcend and are independent of theology. Speaking from a purely sociological perspective- you're wrong. No… I am not “wrong” I just see things with a different perspective. I see the culture of people who came from Canaan as separate from those who believe in the jewish philosophy….it may merge frequently but I don’t feel it is interchangeably part of the religion. Quote: People can disagree with me but it doesn't mean that this concept that has been passed down is anything more then a concept. Quote: tea You don't seem to understand that a culture is, by definition concepts that are passed down from generation to generation. I was talking about the theological concept. Quote: sure I can and will. I used to make a hobby of it a while back. I don;t own a bible so I'll need to readress this after I visit my mom, should be soon. But I already do have the example I mentioned about of the curse verses you gave me. I could start to give examples like god making a father think that they would be orced to kill their son for petty reasons....but I will wait until I have that exact citations for you. Quote: tea Sounds good. I'll wait. Ty for your patience. I should see my mother soon. Maybe you know of a good link that contains it to speed up the waiting time? Either way ty. Quote: I think I addressed that above, but if you have more questions or want more details, ask away. Quote: tea It doesn't really address it. You've used the fallacy again and attempted to justify it with another fallacy. Umm we might be getting somewhere, good…what is the second fallacy and why is it a fallacy in your opinion? Quote: sorry but I do feel you are mistaken. I certainly did go through a "not them" stage, it was a long time ago in 7th-11th grade. I have moved past that. If it seems that I want to prove my autonomy it is probably because I get annoyed at so many people automatically assuming I am part of something I am not because many others think I am. I don't care if the entire world thinks I am, if I am not then I am not. I'm going to pause for a moment. People who are truly apathetic to being counted amongst things they are not a part of do not express anything beyond their apathy.
you are generalizing again. I only went into it because you said you may have had a theory. It doesn’t count as being defensive to keep claiming I am not something you seem to feel I am a part of if you are the one who is asking me directly to discuss that. Me talking about it wasn’t even an issue until you brought it up. It seems more like you think you must be right and therefore I must be wrong. But I think I know myself a little better considering how much time I have spent considering this all. I certainly did go through a long faze where I fit into your acquisitions, but not for a while now. |
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Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:47 pm
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Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:08 pm
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Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:44 pm
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patience1984 I do not mean that it is invalid, I thought I made that clear when I spoke about respecting those who do believe it to be true, ...what I mean is that it seems unlikely.
Why does it seem unlikely?
I think what you actually mean is "I don't think it happened", which is all well and good. But to say "it seems unlikely" means that there is evidence it did not happen.
Your entire position is based on lack of evidence, from what I can see, which is a terrible reason to hold a position so strongly.
patience1984 To a degree anything on this subject is somewhat unfathomable
I disagree.
I've studied science. It's very fathomable.
patience1984 because it is very complicated and there is a lot of information we do not know.
So what?
patience1984 However, I have given it a great deal of thought in the past and now and when I said illogical I meant it.
You didn't mean it, though. You're abusing the word 'logic'.
patience1984 Equilibrioception makes sense to me because I can observe it. An example is humans and plants helping the other to breath. It is of course possible that the god of which you speak created it that way.
No god is needed at that level.
Once the universe was created, the creator did its job. The observable rules of the universe allow for life and, in fact, lend themselves to life. All the creator would have had to do was write the rules into the fabric of existance.
patience1984 But from a scientific perspective I have no evidence so it is less logical in my eyes.
No.
Scientifically you're wrong.
You're trying to state that because you have no evidence that it's less likely to be right.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" is a scientific axiom. Something so fundamental to scientific thought that it's drilled into us.
patience1984 There is no evidence he exists or ever did.
That's a very bold statement to make.
patience1984 If something has not surfaced what is the probability it exists...it may but it most likely doesn't.
Both science, and formal logic, call this a logical fallacy.
This statement is not logically consistent with reality.
patience1984 It could be there...so could a giant balloon filled with bottle caps balancing on the wings of an immortal flying elephant...just because anything is possible doesn't mean I should not question it's probability.
You did not question it's possibility. You said that it was more likely not to exist tahn to exist because of lack of evidence.
In the case of the giant balloon, it is less likely to exist because you chose something unlikely to exist. That is not logical. You are not comparing like with like.
patience1984 I don't think that force generated it because it is unlikely that force exists.
Stop saying that.
Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it any more true.
You have no evidence for it.
patience1984 It seems like an easy way to answer the question of where it all came from...
Are you kidding?
Easy?
Have you studied any theology before?
patience1984 but I believe the answers are out there,
You are wrong.
The universe can never contain all of the information needed to describe it.
This has been categorically proven by mathematics (in particular, Set Theory and in even greater particularity, Godel's thoeroms on incompleteness)
patience1984 I see nature working now so I have trust if it works now then it worked in some amazing way back then..I may not have been there but nature has earned my trust....
Would you be so kind as to tell that to the millions starving because of famine?
Or how about those that lost their homes to hurricane katrina
Or how about those that lost their everything to the earthquakes in china?
patience1984 o no, I entirely disagree with that...I said I had to be the direct cause of the harm.
So as long as you're not directly responsible, the moral responsibility doesn't matter?
I think your world view needs a little work.
patience1984 I'm glad u are being frank, and I am sorry that I was unintentionally insulting. Can you please go into more detail about your side of this. You are saying that I should believe strongly in the immortal elephant and everything else that might possibly exist? metaphorical understandings are dynamics that most likely are part of nature...so it does fit....even if you still disagree with my position of "quantifiable concepts."
She's not trying to convince you to believe anything.
She's showing you that your arguments that "believers in God(s) are foolish" are based on faulty logic, bad thinking, terrible science and, in a lot of places, pure ignorance.
patience1984 sorry that is an opinion that a lot of people, especially many jews, seem to share. I find it only theological.
You are wrong.
patience1984 It is true I may have ancestors who come from the same place...but as far as I am concerned it is about beleifs.
Again, you are wrong.
patience1984 If they belief in the ideals of judaism they are jewish...
Again, you are wrong.
Do you know anything about the Jewish people?
patience1984 People can disagree with me
It's not that people disagree with you. It's that objective reality says you're wrong and putting things like "I feel" or "as far as I'm concerned" doesn't make you any less wrong.
The Jewish people exist. Not all of them are of the Jewish religion.
End of story.
patience1984 I could start to give examples like god making a father think that they would be orced to kill their son for petty reasons....
Terrible terrible example.
That was God giving the prophecy of the Messiah.
patience1984 I think I addressed that above, but if you have more questions or want more details, ask away.
You didn't, though.
Your position is logically invalid. |
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Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:36 pm
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Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:18 pm
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CuAnnan patience1984 I do not mean that it is invalid, I thought I made that clear when I spoke about respecting those who do believe it to be true, ...what I mean is that it seems unlikely. Quote: CuAnnan Why does it seem unlikely? I think what you actually mean is "I don't think it happened", which is all well and good. But to say "it seems unlikely" means that there is evidence it did not happen. Your entire position is based on lack of evidence, from what I can see, which is a terrible reason to hold a position so strongly. I’ve already explained why it seems unlikely a few times in detail…feel free to bring up specifics if you want so that I know and can respond to what you are calling into question. I know what I mean more then you know what I mean…if I was unclear then I am sorry...but I don’t think I was in this case. You think it is worse for me to say it I probably don’t think it happened then saying “I don’t think it happened.” Well I was doing what I always do my best to do always: tell the truth. I can’t be fully certain that that god doesn’t exist. I’m sorry if you feel I have indicated something in other people’s minds but that doesn’t change how I feel. I feel mostly all people probably have a doubt/s that their religious beliefs are true (some won’t even admit that to themselves)…in fact, I feel it is that doubt that drives them to persecute those who disagree and/or try to persuade others to agree. But since most people with faith have at least one doubt…I don’t see why someone who doesn’t tend to have a lot of stock in a faith can’t have a little doubt in my disbelief. If anything, I ma being overly fair to give an idea I find very unlikely a little bit of the benefit of the doubt. patience1984 To a degree anything on this subject is somewhat unfathomable Quote: CuAnnan I disagree. I've studied science. It's very fathomable. Umm, whether something can be fathomed or not depends on the individual….even if you are confident that you can fathom everything on the subject of that god (a very bold statement) that doesn’t mean that stating you disagree with what I can fathom makes any sense…you are not in my head. patience1984 because it is very complicated and there is a lot of information we do not know. Fathom means to comprehend. How can you comprehend information that is either incomplete or you don’t even know exists? That is what. I said it to strengthen my argument about what I just typed a second ago…as I believe I did pretty well. patience1984 However, I have given it a great deal of thought in the past and now and when I said illogical I meant it. Quote: CuAnnan You didn't mean it, though. You're abusing the word 'logic'. Once again you feel you know what I do or do not mean. I do my best not to use words unless I mean them…and after being called into question and reviewing this case over and over again I’m definitely sure I said exactly what I mean. Please explain in more detail what you mean when you say “abusing the word ‘logic’.” What is your definition for logic and how do you feel I have misused the word? patience1984 Equilibrioception makes sense to me because I can observe it. An example is humans and plants helping the other to breath. It is of course possible that the god of which you speak created it that way. Quote: CuAnnan No god is needed at that level. Once the universe was created, the creator did its job. The observable rules of the universe allow for life and, in fact, lend themselves to life. All the creator would have had to do was write the rules into the fabric of existance. That is your opinion…there are many who disagree with you…you state your opinion as if it is fact. Do YOU wish that everyone in the world agreed with your spiritual/religious beliefs because they are”true”? patience1984 But from a scientific perspective I have no evidence so it is less logical in my eyes. Quote: CuAnnan No. Scientifically you're wrong. You're trying to state that because you have no evidence that it's less likely to be right. "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" is a scientific axiom. Something so fundamental to scientific thought that it's drilled into us. I said in my eyes…am I not allowed to form my on views?...must I conform to an idea other humans (who are imperfect) felt? Humans have been wrong plenty of times in the past…it is not going to stop me from making the best assessment I can make in my own head. patience1984 There is no evidence he exists or ever did. Quote: CuAnnan That's a very bold statement to make. A true one though in my opinion. If it is so bold then can you provide ANY evidence he does or ever did exist? (other then hearsay) patience1984 If something has not surfaced what is the probability it exists...it may but it most likely doesn't. Quote: CuAnnan Both science, and formal logic, call this a logical fallacy. This statement is not logically consistent with reality. Tea seems to have been offended (although I think I made it clear how sorry I am even though I am certain my statements were taken out of context and that it seems very unlikely my family’s beliefs personally could offend her in the way she said.) and it seems unlikely she will return to this post but who knows. Before she left I explained that once I was challenged I went into more detail and I feel I explained my side of it very well. I asked her to read that carefully and if she still disagreed to tell me what specifically about that detailed statement was still a fallacy. I suppose it makes sense because it seems you either did not read that post or you did not give a chance to think about it that you please do and answer the same question I asked her. I don’t see the point of repeating a post I have made already. Please answer the question so I can understand what yours may be. patience1984 It could be there...so could a giant balloon filled with bottle caps balancing on the wings of an immortal flying elephant...just because anything is possible doesn't mean I should not question it's probability. Quote: CuAnnan You did not question it's possibility. You said that it was more likely not to exist tahn to exist because of lack of evidence. In the case of the giant balloon, it is less likely to exist because you chose something unlikely to exist. That is not logical. You are not comparing like with like. The lack of evidence thing is what I just spoke about,…I await the answer to my question still. In my opinion it is most likely humans made up the story of that god like writing a fiction book. I made up a story about an elephant, like a fiction book with just as much likelihood in my opinion. I feel they are like to like. Why do you feel the likelihood of that god is any more logical? Because the story came into someone’s head and a good amount of people believe it? If so that doesn’t seem like a good case in my opinion. patience1984 I don't think that force generated it because it is unlikely that force exists. Quote: CuAnnan Stop saying that. Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it any more true. You have no evidence for it. Are you presuming to tell me what I should and should not say? Do you have any respect for the freedom I spoke of? I only repeat myself when similar questions get asked to me over and over again or when it truly applies. You are repeating yourself as well and it doesn’t make what you say any more true either. patience1984 It seems like an easy way to answer the question of where it all came from... Are you kidding? Quote: CuAnnan Easy? Have you studied any theology before? Ok, I definitely answered this question well again…but seeing as ti is a short answer and in case you can’t find it I’ll repeat it for you. I said the Initial fundamentals of a god (higher power) being responsibility for creating existence is easy. Not an entire theology. I have studied and I don’t appreciate the undertone when I am being so polite in return. patience1984 but I believe the answers are out there, Quote: CuAnnan You are wrong. The universe can never contain all of the information needed to describe it. This has been categorically proven by mathematics (in particular, Set Theory and in even greater particularity, Godel's thoeroms on incompleteness) Theories are not proof. I think it is possible to find out the answers from the past (not necessarily the future) in time. Who knows what tools may be invented to help us with that. It is one thing for you to disagree with the fact that I think anything is possible it is another thing for you to tell me I am wrong. I am sorry if I am mistaken but ti seems like once someone who is recognized well by other flawed humans comes up with an idea you flock behind it and stop trying (and I can’t know if you have or have not tried before that knowledge) to think on the subject for yourself. patience1984 I see nature working now so I have trust if it works now then it worked in some amazing way back then..I may not have been there but nature has earned my trust.... Quote: CuAnnan Would you be so kind as to tell that to the millions starving because of famine? Or how about those that lost their homes to hurricane katrina Or how about those that lost their everything to the earthquakes in china? It helps balance things out (problems like overpopulation and humans robbing the world of life.) Of course there is a huge price to pay…but you can’t have positive without negative. In my opinion we should try not to let those lives have died in vain by appreciating what we have and living life (and it’s positive parts) to the fullest. Also, there are those who believe god is responsible for that and tea already quoted god being responsible for good and evil so I fail to see why I should be the one talking to those unfortunate people if those who feel god is responsible are right. patience1984 o no, I entirely disagree with that...I said I had to be the direct cause of the harm. Quote: CuAnnan So as long as you're not directly responsible, the moral responsibility doesn't matter? I think your world view needs a little work. What do you mean by directly? It seems that you mean that I could say that I didn’t kill the person directly, the bullet did. If so, you are completely misinterpreting my belief. The cases I have been asked about are about how other people think and I feel they hurt because of themselves; they are responsible for not dealing with their issues not because of my actions. There is only so much I can do to help someone else get over their own issues when they are not willing or ready for help. Me not having control over other people’s issues has nothing to do with me not taking responsibility I it was my responsibility. I take my code very seriously. I spent 2 hours today rescuing about 100 tiny sea snails. I work my tail off not to hurt others and even to make them happy and live a more full life. I do my best never to lie. I am extremely moral. So moral that if I accidentally cause harm the guilt causes me pain every day for years. You are entitled to your opinion but it seems you have misinterpreted what I mean by direct and your view that my “…world view needs a little work.” Is far from the truth. I feel you have misjudged me a lot and I’m trying to remind myself that you don’t understand so I am hurt less by your position when I try so hard to maintain my strong morals (harder then mostly anyone else I would estimate.) patience1984 I'm glad u are being frank, and I am sorry that I was unintentionally insulting. Can you please go into more detail about your side of this. You are saying that I should believe strongly in the immortal elephant and everything else that might possibly exist? metaphorical understandings are dynamics that most likely are part of nature...so it does fit....even if you still disagree with my position of "quantifiable concepts." Quote: CuAnnan She's not trying to convince you to believe anything. She's showing you that your arguments that "believers in God(s) are foolish" are based on faulty logic, bad thinking, terrible science and, in a lot of places, pure ignorance. Well you could say “I think” before your statement but in case you are correct and you are speaking for her thoughts accurately....I never said or implied that “believers in god(s) are foolish” ….in fact I made sure to say that I respected those who believed in god/s. I would pay attention to my responses before I felt confident about that last sentence if I were you. patience1984 sorry that is an opinion that a lot of people, especially many jews, seem to share. I find it only theological. I can’t be wrong about an OPINION. The more you say things like that the more I have to work hard to give what you say a chance. I do with effort anyway but I keep finding your statements to lack credibility. patience1984 It is true I may have ancestors who come from the same place...but as far as I am concerned it is about beliefs. Quote: CuAnnan Again, you are wrong. we just went through this, it is an opinion. patience1984 If they belief in the ideals of judaism they are jewish... Quote: CuAnnan Again, you are wrong. once again, opinion. Quote: CuAnnan Do you know anything about the Jewish people? Woah…you took a piece of my sentence that doesn’t mean what I intended it to without the rest of my sentence. Once again please can you say what you have to say…itseems like you are being deliberately insulting. I know a lot about the jewish people and just because I disagree with a notion they tend to have doesn’t make me ignorant to what that or other jewish widespread beliefs are. Once again I do not think my point was given a chance. IT can’t hurt to give a chance try to think about it. It doesn’t matter if every person on the planet other then me believes that you are automatically jewish when you are born to a family of jews…I disagree with that BELIEF. It is a belief not a fact. Being jewish is not a tangible thing..if I probably don’t believe in the bible or that god then I am not a jew the matter who disagrees it doesn’t make my feeling on the matter nay less valid. I admitted that I blocked some parts out of my education as well as my childhood…but with a family like mine and the 8 years of Hebrew school I still know quite a lot. The repeating point is that you seem to ignore the differences between what a fact is and what an opinion is. patience1984 People can disagree with me Quote: CuAnnan It's not that people disagree with you. It's that objective reality says you're wrong and putting things like "I feel" or "as far as I'm concerned" doesn't make you any less wrong. The Jewish people exist. Not all of them are of the Jewish religion. End of story. I am entitled to how I feel and I feel very justified in what I have said. If when you say “the jewish people” (which doesn’t need to consist of those who follow the jewish religion) is the culture of most jews then please provide me an example of something tangible (proving it to be defiantely real) that is passed to a new “jewish” baby. It may help me see your point or it may help me make my beliefs clearer to you. patience1984 I could start to give examples like god making a father think that they would be orced to kill their son for petty reasons.... Quote: CuAnnan Terrible terrible example. That was God giving the prophecy of the Messiah. I think you are stating your opinion as fact again and being deliberately insulting again with that first comment. Is it your OPINION that it is a terrible example. I think it is a great example. I had said when I brought it up I wanted to find where it was in the bible but if you are already choosing to call it into question I’ll discuss it early. (speaking of which, I just got a copy of the old testament bible from my mom today and once I have had the time to find the parts I want to find I will make a new post with a few. It seems almost like a waste of time because tea is the one who requested it and she is no longer part of this thread I think…but I said that I would so I will.) Also, according to the jews it was NOT “god giving the prophecy of the messiah.” That is a christian interpretation. I used the example because I think it is another case of god being an egomaniac and breaking the heart of a father just so he felt that Abraham was loyal to him. Shame on god and his personality and beliefs if he is real and that story is true (in my opinion.) I can’t see why that example is anything but good…forget about “terrible.” But once again you’re entitled to your opinion even if I feel it is unfounded and distorted. patience1984 I think I addressed that above, but if you have more questions or want more details, ask away. Quote: CuAnnan You didn't, though. Your position is logically invalid.
Please tell me the truth. Did you or did you not type “You didn't, though.” After rereading what I had to say in more detail and devoting time to understand and consider what I had to say? Please tell me yes or no. If the answer is no then please read it and if the answer is yes I will ask of you what I asked of tea: tell me out of my detailed further explanation of that point what about it is still invalid. I’m not talking about the original fallacy point, I am talking about my reasons for defending my point about that. I fele you must explain why my defense of the point is wrong before you can continue to attack the point. |
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Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:55 pm
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patience1984 I’ve already explained why it seems unlikely a few times in detail…feel free to bring up specifics if you want so that I know and can respond to what you are calling into question.
It does not seem unlikely.
To say that it seems unlikely is to take an objectivist stand point and speak from the objective point of view.
Pure science advocates agnosticism.
Pure logic advocates agnosticism.
When you flavour either of these with personal experience, it seems TO THE PERSON IN QUESTION either likely or unlikely.
patience1984 I know what I mean more then you know what I mean…if I was unclear then I am sorry...but I don’t think I was in this case.
Then, at the risk of sounding childish, I am right and you are wrong.
This is not a matter of opinion.
It does not seem unlikely.
It does not seem either likely or unlikely.
You may view it as unlikely.
That's not the same thing.
patience1984 Well I was doing what I always do my best to do always: tell the truth.
It is not the truth. It is your opinion. Stop touting your opinion as truth. It is not.
patience1984 I feel mostly all people probably have a doubt/s that their religious beliefs are true (some won’t even admit that to themselves)…
There is less evidence for that than there is for the existance of God.
You are forming an opinion based on nothing than pure speculation.
patience1984 in fact, I feel it is that doubt that drives them to persecute those who disagree and/or try to persuade others to agree.
My tradition has rules against prozyletisation.
patience1984 But since most people with faith have at least one doubt…
See, you're doing it again.
Your opinion is not objective reality.
patience1984 Umm, whether something can be fathomed or not depends on the individual….
You did not say 'I can not fathom science'.
You said 'it is unfathomable'.
See hte difference.
"I think tea tastes horrible" versus "tea is horrible"
Stop doing the second.
patience1984 Fathom means to comprehend. How can you comprehend information that is either incomplete or you don’t even know exists?
Quite easily.
I fathom quantum mechanics.
patience1984 That is what. I said it to strengthen my argument about what I just typed a second ago…as I believe I did pretty well.
You believe wrongly.
You made sweeping generalisations and when corrected defended them.
patience1984 Once again you feel you know what I do or do not mean.
what you mean and feel is irrelevant.
Logic does not apply to you in one way and to other people in another.
Logic is a formalised set of rules.
They apply to everyone the same.
You have broken them.
patience1984 I do my best not to use words unless I mean them…
Then try to not use them when you don't understand them.
patience1984 I’m definitely sure I said exactly what I mean.
We don't care that you mean it.
It still makes no logical sense.
"I can't conceive of it happening htis way so it is less likely to have" breaks the rules of logic. For you, for me, for everyone.
patience1984 Please explain in more detail what you mean when you say “abusing the word ‘logic’.” What is your definition for logic and how do you feel I have misused the word?
Wiki article
dictionary definition
You are not using the term logical correctly.
End of discussion on this matter.
Actually, that's the science on the matter.
The universe lends itself to life.
The chemical and physical laws of the universe lend themselves to life.
So, at the point in time that life exists, God is not needed to create life.
patience1984 you state your opinion as if it is fact.
No. I state scientific understanding as fact.
patience1984 Do YOU wish that everyone in the world agreed with your spiritual/religious beliefs because they are”true”?
Actually, I wish a great deal of the world would stop trying to follow my religious beliefs.
patience1984 I said in my eyes…am I not allowed to form my on views?
To state that your views are scientific when they directly contradict science, no. You are not.
Where science disagrees with you, you cannot say "scientifically".
That's like saying "Medically, in my opinion, bacteria will never make you sick".
patience1984 must I conform to an idea other humans (who are imperfect) felt?
When you want to cite them as an authority, yes.
patience1984 Humans have been wrong plenty of times in the past…it is not going to stop me from making the best assessment I can make in my own head.
Do you understand the word Axiom?
patience1984 A true one though in my opinion.
Stop.
Stop adding "in my opinion" to everyting.
Your opinions aren't sacred.
You have seen no evidence.
Big deal.
Who are you to tell everyone in the world that the evidence that they have seen is false?
Because that's what you're doing with your objective statements.
Stop stating your opinion as fact.
patience1984 If it is so bold then can you provide ANY evidence he does or ever did exist? (other then hearsay)
I'm not inclined to provide anything to you, at this stage.
You have ignored my corrections and tried to use the fact that you're opining to completely ignore the laws of science, the rules of logic and common sense.
patience1984 Before she left I explained that once I was challenged I went into more detail and I feel I explained my side of it very well.
We understand exactly what you're saying.
The FACT of the matter is your logic is faulty.
We're not trying to convince you to change your beliefs.
We're pointing out your logic is faulty.
We don't care what you believe.
But when you come here stating things like "it seems unlikely" or "scientifically" or "logically" when you haven't a logical or scientific leg to stand on, yes we get pissed off.
Because you're wrong.
It doesn't seem unlikely that God exists.
It is not scientificallly thought that God doesn't exist.
IT is not more logical to be an athiest.
Adding "in my opinion" to the end of these sentences just makes your opinion wrong.
patience1984 I asked her to read that carefully and if she still disagreed to tell me what specifically about that detailed statement was still a fallacy.
It IS fallacious.
I have been incredibly patient with you, thus far, but my patience has run out. From here on in, if you do not educate yourself, I will cease trying to educate you.
I have had better luck teaching my cat to sit on command than I have getting through to you.
Just because it's your opinion doesn't mean it can't be wrong.
I have spelled out why you're wrong and you've just plugged your ears and ignored me.
patience1984 I suppose it makes sense because it seems you either did not read that post or you did not give a chance to think about it that you please do and answer the same question I asked her.
I have broken your post into sections no more than three lines long and pointed out exactly where your logic breaks down.
Logic does not mean "makes sense to me"
Logic is not subjective.
patience1984 Please answer the question so I can understand what yours may be.
That your opinions, which I fully understand, are wrong.
patience1984 The lack of evidence thing is what I just spoke about,…
Using absence of evidence as evidence of absence is ALWAYS logically unsound.
It is ALWAYS scientifically unsound.
patience1984 In my opinion it is most likely humans made up the story of that god like writing a fiction book.
Why is it more likely?
Why would people lie about a divine entity?
You can't actually make it more likely without adding conspiracy to the situation, which makes your case less likely.
It is, in fact, more likely than your case that they were mistaken.
Or that they took drugs.
patience1984 I made up a story about an elephant, like a fiction book with just as much likelihood in my opinion. I feel they are like to like.
Then show me the billions who believe in your elephant and the millenia of history surrounding your elephant or drop this argument, because it's beyond silly.
patience1984 Why do you feel the likelihood of that god is any more logical?
I have not stated that it is.
I have stated that your logic is terrible.
You are now trying to get me to prove that God exists.
This is another logical fallacy. It is known as "shifting burden of proof"
patience1984 Because the story came into someone’s head and a good amount of people believe it?
Prove that's what happened.
patience1984 Are you presuming to tell me what I should and should not say?
Yes.
patience1984 Do you have any respect for the freedom I spoke of?
No.
I do not hold any respect for the freedom to claim you are being logical or scientific when you are not.
Where I come from, we call that lying.
And "shut the ******** up" is the usual response.
Absolutely anybody on this forum will tell you that I have been far more reasonable with you than with anyone else I have ever come across.
That is only because of where we are.
patience1984 You are repeating yourself as well and it doesn’t make what you say any more true either.
The difference is, I'm not speaking about my beliefs or opinions.
I am talking about objective reality.
patience1984 k, I definitely answered this question well again…but seeing as ti is a short answer and in case you can’t find it I’ll repeat it for you. I said the Initial fundamentals of a god (higher power) being responsibility for creating existence is easy. Not an entire theology. I have studied and I don’t appreciate the undertone when I am being so polite in return.
So, you mean "God did it" is simpler than "it just happened"
Good thing I cited a mathematical theorom.
Which is, in fact, proof.
patience1984 I think it is possible to find out the answers from the past (not necessarily the future) in time.
You are wrong.
Speaking from a factual perspective:
The universe can not be both consistent and complete.
The universe must be either inconsistent or incomplete.
If the universe is inconsistent, then all of the answers can not be known as they will not always be the same.
If the universe is consistent, then all of the answers can not be known as the universe would be self referential and complete which would lead to a logical situation identical to "This sentence is false".
There is no further discussion to be had on this, as you are wrong.
It's not that I am right here, it's that mathematics is right here.
If you want to throw out mathematics, and you need to throw out all of mathematics if you are going to throw out Godel, then we have nothing further to discuss as the universe you think you're living in does not exist.
patience1984 Who knows what tools may be invented to help us with that.
No tool can come into existence to over rule the fundmental rules of the universe.
patience1984 It is one thing for you to disagree with the fact that I think anything is possible it is another thing for you to tell me I am wrong.
It doesn't matter if you think you're right.
Mathematics proves you're wrong.
patience1984 It helps balance things out (problems like overpopulation and humans robbing the world of life.)
The world is not overpopulated.
And provide proof that humans are robbing the world of life.
To state that it is an issue of balance is to state there was an intelligence behind it, you do realise that, don't you?
patience1984 Of course there is a huge price to pay…but you can’t have positive without negative.
Prove it.
patience1984 In my opinion we should try not to let those lives have died in vain by appreciating what we have and living life (and it’s positive parts) to the fullest.
This part actually made me nauseous.
I had to try really hard not to throw up as she justified the deaths and homelessness etc of millions as teh sacrifice for her hapiness.
patience1984 Well you could say “I think” before your statement but in case you are correct and you are speaking for her thoughts accurately....I never said or implied that “believers in god(s) are foolish”
Yes.
You did.
By stating that it is more likely that God does not exist.
By stating that it is more logical to believe that God does not exist.
By stating that it is more scientific to believe that God does not exist.
patience1984 ….in fact I made sure to say that I respected those who believed in god/s.
If I reduce you to tears while using respectful words and saying that I respect you, am I clear of moral responsibility? Because, believe me, I can do it.
patience1984 I would pay attention to my responses before I felt confident about that last sentence if I were you.
You should re-read your posts here.
patience1984 I can’t be wrong about an OPINION.
Yes.
You can.
patience1984 The more you say things like that the more I have to work hard to give what you say a chance.
You have no idea.
patience1984 I do with effort anyway but I keep finding your statements to lack credibility.
LMAO.
My statements are coming from a logically correct, scientifically correct position.
You're pulling opinions from nowhere and citing them as objective truth.
patience1984 we just went through this, it is an opinion.
And it is wrong.
And, once again, it is wrong.
You cannot justify saying something like "You have to believe in the jewish religion to be a jew, in my opinion". If both of your parents are Jews and you're an athiest.
Guess what?
You're still a Jew.
What you're saying really is comparable to "If both of your parents are african tribalists and you're an athiest, you're not an african any more"
Your opinion on the matter is irrelevant.
The fact of the matter is that if your parents are Jews, regardless of what you believe, you are also a Jew.
patience1984 I know a lot about the jewish people and just because I disagree with a notion they tend to have doesn’t make me ignorant to what that or other jewish widespread beliefs are.
Then how is it that you're getting something so fundamental wrong.
patience1984 I disagree with that BELIEF.
SO what?
You're wrong.
patience1984 It is a belief not a fact.
Actually, it's a fact.
Being born of two Jews makes you a Jew.
Fact.
Believing it doesn't just means you have a factually incorrect belief.
patience1984 Being jewish is not a tangible thing..
Actually, in a lot of cases it is.
patience1984 The repeating point is that you I ignore the difference between what a fact and an opinion is.
Fixed
patience1984 I am entitled to how I feel and I feel very justified in what I have said.
I have never heard that argument outside of from American middle class children.
The idea that you're entitled to an opinion that you're not entitled to is what put creationism in your classrooms.
patience1984 If when you say “the jewish people” (which doesn’t need to consist of those who follow the jewish religion) is the culture of most jews then please provide me an example of something tangible (proving it to be defiantely real) that is passed to a new “jewish” baby. It may help me see your point or it may help me make my beliefs clearer to you.
Yes. The Jewish people. Also known as the Jews.
patience1984 I used the example because I think it is another case of god being an egomaniac and breaking the heart of a father just so he felt that Abraham was loyal to him.
An omniscient God has no need of such tests.
Revisit please.
patience1984 Please tell me the truth. Did you or did you not type “You didn't, though.”
I did.
patience1984 After rereading what I had to say in more detail and devoting time to understand and consider what I had to say?
I understood what you were trying to say from the get-go.
That does not make it any more logical.
It is not.
patience1984 Please tell me yes or no. If the answer is no then please read it and if the answer is yes I will ask of you what I asked of tea: tell me out of my detailed further explanation of that point what about it is still invalid.
I have done.
You seem to think that if something makes sense to you then it is 'logical' to you.
It is not.
patience1984 I’m not talking about the original fallacy point, I am talking about my reasons for defending my point about that.
All of which are made of epic fail.
patience1984 I fele you must explain why my defense of the point is wrong before you can continue to attack the point.
Actually, you are wrong.
I have pointed out the logical holes so large you could pass galaxies through them.
You have defended my attacks with "it's my opinion".
Your opinions are wrong.
They are unfounded and incorrect. |
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Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:04 pm
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CuAnnan...I am going to respond to each thing you have said. But I am almost positive it is a waste of time. You twist many things I say, dodge questions (even very simple ones), and claim that your words speak for others s well. What is the point of me working so hard to actually address what you have to say if you don't think about anything I have to say. It seems you feel very superior to me, almost as if what I have to say doesn't matter. It also seems that you think I'm missing a lot by not agreeing with you. I think that you are missing out by not opening your mind more. The difference is, I have thought out what you have said and you have implied that you have not thought out what I have said. It is like talking to a brick wall, I wish you were less stubborn. I work very hard not to judge other people, especially ones I do not know well like you. I hope your life is happy. But I came to this guild to get help...and if your going to ignore points that you can;t defend and twist around what I say, and accuse me of doing what you have been doing I feel like it is precious energy that I'm not sure is going for a good purpose. It seems like you care about tea and are trying to back her up or something. Which I'm sure you mean in a good way. But I think the fact that you are expressing that you can make me cry while seeming polite means your intentions are negative. I'm not sure why you have such negativity towards me. You also seem to have not read everything I have said because you state a few things that you should know are not true about me in your last post. I have been open and nice. You say you are being more patient then usual. Once again, I'm not going to judge you. I said from the beginning there are plenty of things I don't know yet and I have come for answers. But it doesn't seem right for me to give so much and get negativity back. Is your agenda to help me? Has it ever been? If I'm not important enough for your time in your opinion, so be it. But unless you have some sincerity I ask you not to waste mine. I am trying to find my path and very passionate about it. Please be part of the solution or let me know that your takign a break or whatever too. As I said my next post will respond to your last one, but I'm asking you to be nice enough to not play these games again. This should be about helping me...hence the title of the thread. Be well.
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Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:44 pm
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patience1984 CuAnnan...I am going to respond to each thing you have said. But I am almost positive it is a waste of time.
Unless you're going to stop the "It's my opinion, I'm entitled to it" bullshit, don't bother.
patience1984 You twist many things I say
No. I don't.
I take what you say and compare it to how you behave and, thusly, show how what you say is utter bollox.
patience1984 and claim that your words speak for others s well.
Show where I claim my words speak for others, please.
patience1984 What is the point of me working so hard to actually address what you have to say if you don't think about anything I have to say.
What you have to say is not valid.
I heard it the first time.
Saw what was wrong with it.
Pointed it out to you.
You ignored it.
patience1984 It seems you feel very superior to me
No.
It doesn't seem I feel very superior to you.
You think I feel superior to you.
That's in your head.
patience1984 almost as if what I have to say doesn't matter.
Most of what you've said so far has been utter bollox.
So, no, it doesn't matter.
patience1984 It also seems that you think I'm missing a lot by not agreeing with you.
I have not put forth my beliefs.
What you're doing isn't disagreeing with me, it's disagreeing with reality.
I have put nothing of mySelf into these posts, they have been pure fact.
patience1984 I think that you are missing out by not opening your mind more.
If my mind were any more open, my brain would fall out my ears.
There's a difference between not having an open mind and being able to think critically.
I am not going to waste time thinking "well maybe she's right" when my seven year old nephew could point out the logical fallacies in your posts. I know this because he's done it with posts like yours before.
patience1984 The difference is, I have thought out what you have said and you have implied that you have not thought out what I have said.
If I start a post with the supposition that 2+2 = 5 and then base the entirety of my post on that supposition, would you listen to it?
No.
Your basic premises are bullshit.
patience1984 It is like talking to a brick wall
No. It's more like talkign to someone who knows a great deal more than you do and isn't willing to listen to your puerile prattling on.
patience1984 I wish you were less stubborn.
It's not a matter of being stubborn.
It's a matter of knowing more than you do about logic and science and knowing that opinions can be wrong.
Now that I have very very slowly and very very calmly pointed out why you don't have a leg to stand on you're turning to personal insults, making the fact that you're talking nonsense my fault.
patience1984 I work very hard not to judge other people, especially ones I do not know well like you.
I don't.
When someone behaves like an idiot, I judge them an idiot.
Until they display something vaguely resembling common sense, I maintain my judgement.
patience1984 I hope your life is happy.
Ah, the high and mighty attack.
A staple of trolls and fluffies everywhere.
patience1984 But I came to this guild to get help...and if your going to ignore points that you can;t defend and twist around what I say, and accuse me of doing what you have been doing I feel like it is precious energy that I'm not sure is going for a good purpose.
I know exactly what you mean.
The only difference is I'm ignoring intellectual tripe.
You're ignoring unarguable facts.
These are not my opinions.
They're facts.
You can't argue against them because there's no room for my being wrong.
patience1984 It seems like you care about tea and are trying to back her up or something.
Tea's big enough to take care of her self.
She was just hoping that I could talk some sense into you.
It seems like that's not actually possible.
That you think if you wrap "killing babies is healthy sexual foreplay" in "your opinion that it somehow makes it healthy sexual foreplay.
patience1984 But I think the fact that you are expressing that you can make me cry while seeming polite means your intentions are negative.
That's because you don't understand.
I was trying to show you that words and deeds do not neccessarily match up.
Stating "I respect those who believe in God(S) but they're ******** idiots and their beliefs are illogical and unscientific and seem to make no sense" is not respectful.
patience1984 I'm not sure why you have such negativity towards me.
I have negativity towards anyone who abuses the terms logic and science.
I have negativity towards anyone who will broadcast their opinion as objective truth.
I have negativity towards anyone who lies about their behaviour, particularly when it comes to respect.
patience1984 I have been open and nice.
That is a patent lie.
patience1984 But it doesn't seem right for me to give so much and get negativity back.
Note the tone of my post in the first post.
Note that, as you continue to ignore me, my tone becomes more and more frustrated.
Quite frankly, I detest the fact that you wrap up lies and falsehoods in opinion.
Opinions can be wrong, like yours are.
patience1984 Is your agenda to help me?
It is my agenda to show you where your logic is abysmal and to allow you help yourself.
patience1984 But unless you have some sincerity I ask you not to waste mine.
I cannot waste your time.
How you spend it is up to you.
As for how I spend mine, this is the last time I will post in response to you.
You have been utterly disrespectful at all stages.
I have tried to look beyond that, but if I continue to try to show you how wrong you are, I will just lose my self control and insult you. |
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