The Bible and Opinions

[Fushigi na Butterfly]

Good point. I'll let her answer for herself then. domokun  

[Mein Kulturkampf]

Reformed Baptist

Fushigi na Butterfly

I'm pretty sure she means liberal as in non-conservative. Jesus was not a conservative Jew. Most Jews thought He was a blasphemer.

I understand but I was wondering why she believes that He was a liberal Jew. Her definition maybe different, which is why I was asking.

Liberalism typically refers to the political ideology in which the primary goal is individual liberty and equal opportunity. Liberals are usually seen to uphold human and civil rights, as well as to go against traditionally held values and beliefs kept simply for the sake of that tradition. Jesus’s emphasis on freedom from the old laws, forgiveness for anyone who asks for it, helping the poor and disadvantaged, and spending time with even those looked down upon society, could easily be looked upon as liberal, if not going as far as socialism.  

[freelance lover]

Reformed Baptist

freelance lover

Yes, I am a liberal. But then again, so was Jesus.

Please explain what you mean by this.

freelance lover

I know I don't always conform to traditional Christian teachings, but then again most of those teachings developed in the Middle Ages by a corrupt church, not from Jesus' life time.

Are you speaking about the Roman Catholic Church?

Everyone else has pretty much summed up what I think about Jesus being a liberal. He came and he totally turned traditional Jewish culture upside down. He was a revolutionary, a radical, and kind of a hippie. Which I'm totally okay with. I think we can all agree that he's an awesome dude.

I suppose I was refering mainly to the Catholic Church, though some Orthodox ones as well as early Protestant ones also fall in there. I remember I saw a documentary on medieval churches and worship once, and my poor thirteen year old self was so shocked at how corrupt the church was in the middle ages. Invent fake relics of Jesus to inspire faith, munipulating the money and the land. The church back then was as much a political entity as it was a religious one, so in many ways the church was a large part of the problem with serfdom and so on. I mean, at one point in time there were three popes- crazy.

I'm not saying the Catholic church is bad, or that it ever was. But much of what we "know" comes from teachings that originated during the Middle Ages in a church that was often very corrupt. For instance, the majority of what we know of Satan comes from Middle Age lore and books such as Dante's Inferno. Very little actually comes from the Bible. You have to examine very carefully what you think you know and see if it actually has biblical basis or if its just a common addition, like the snake in Edan being Satan. It never says anywhere that it's the devil, and yet most people think it is.  

[The Amazing Ryuu]

Fushigi na Butterfly

I believe there is a difference between being ignorant of the Law (which does not make one exempt from it) and potentially disobeying God's Law because you thought you were doing something for Him. But we have Jesus on our side. Whether a person is living a homosexual lifestyle or not, if they are doing the best they can, they are still saved. Jesus' blood covers them just as thoroughly as it covers heterosexuals. The next verse I have is also very important to remember though:

So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God (1 Corinthians 10:31). If this is in your heart, and if you are allowing the Spirit to move you to follow the two greatest Commandments, how can anyone be condemned? If you truly feel that you can honor God much better in a homosexual relationship than single or in a heterosexual relationship, then I say there is no sin.

But this is just my interpretation. sweatdrop

See now, this is what I was trying to say all along. How many times must I write that my thoughts come out much better when you say them? lol

Of course, like my dear freelance lover, I'm fairly liberal myself. I test everything that I'm taught about what I'm SUPPOSED to believe, and find that many 'traditional' teachings just don't stand up to what I believe my God to be. Something about them just doesn't fit. And some things just flat-out don't make any sense. But, as I've said before, I'm sure that when I die and stand before God, he might just look at me, roll his eyes a little bit and give me a pat on the head for trying. Heart in the right place, doing my best to please him, and maybe a little off the mark. But hey. We won't know until we get there, right? mrgreen  

[Priestley]

I don't think my point was addressed even though it was valid. I am still not convinced that different opinions come from the one Spirit. I am convinced that the Spirit is something that should unify us all. Speaking from the Spirit, Jesus said about unity between brethren:

Matthew 18:19-20 NIV

Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.

The problem with having different opinions about the same issue is that is causes arguments between believers, which can lead to discord, which can (in turn) cause divisions in the Church. Everyone gets ahead of themselves (see 1 Corinthians 11:37) when we are supposed to be patient, waiting for one another to be led by the Spirit.  

[Fushigi na Butterfly]

That's also a really good point. I hadn't considered that. But isn't it true that not everything in the Bible is going to apply to all people at all times? I mean, it's all relevant, but it's not all applicable at any given time to everybody. Just like the guy who asked Jesus what else he should be doing in addition to following all of the commandments. Jesus told him to sell all of his possessions and pick up his cross and follow Him. Does that mean Jesus wants us all to be selling our possessions in order to follow Him? I agree that for some people, it might be applicable- they may need to live in semi-poverty in order to follow Jesus better. But that doesn't mean that it would be the same for everyone at all times.

Everyone is in a different place when it comes to their walk with Christ. Some are newborns, and so different Scripture may help them better, to feed them better. Others are veterans, and so they need solid food (as Paul said)- they focus more on other passages and apply them in a different way. But the entire Bible is relevant and useful to everyone, no matter where they are on their journey. It's just that meat and potatoes might be more helpful than a Thanksgiving turkey. That's all I'm saying. I could still be wrong.  

[Priestley]

Fushigi na Butterfly

That's also a really good point. I hadn't considered that. But isn't it true that not everything in the Bible is going to apply to all people at all times? I mean, it's all relevant, but it's not all applicable at any given time to everybody. Just like the guy who asked Jesus what else he should be doing in addition to following all of the commandments. Jesus told him to sell all of his possessions and pick up his cross and follow Him. Does that mean Jesus wants us all to be selling our possessions in order to follow Him? I agree that for some people, it might be applicable- they may need to live in semi-poverty in order to follow Jesus better. But that doesn't mean that it would be the same for everyone at all times.

I do understand your point. However, I was actually having a hefty discussion with my mother about that very story (Matthew 19:16-30, Mark 10:17-30) the other night. Jesus is basically equating heavenly glory/riches with the voluntary surrender/distribution of wealth to the poor. That is, in selling all you have and giving to the poor, you are doing God's will and freeing yourself completely to follow Christ at the same time. We (Christians) cannot deny what Jesus Christ says is the truth, but we all like to believe that we can be well off and still claim pride of place in heaven. Don't worry, I find what Jesus says equally uncomfortable too. sad

Basically, the rule is: a higher place on earth in terms of wealth generally gives you a lower place in heaven.

Fushigi na Butterfly

Everyone is in a different place when it comes to their walk with Christ. Some are newborns, and so different Scripture may help them better, to feed them better. Others are veterans, and so they need solid food (as Paul said)- they focus more on other passages and apply them in a different way. But the entire Bible is relevant and useful to everyone, no matter where they are on their journey. It's just that meat and potatoes might be more helpful than a Thanksgiving turkey. That's all I'm saying. I could still be wrong.

It's a fair point, but when it comes to Christ, you can't really say "I agree with him here, but not with him there." It's all good for us, so says Timothy (2 Timothy 3:14-17).

Sure, some teachings are easier to accept than others. Sometimes Christians go from the milk to the solid food. Sometimes Christians go from the milk, to the solid food, and back to the milk because it tastes better. Sometimes Christians never try the solid food. It all comes down to faith. One's level faith decides what teachings are acceptable to you, not whether they are relevant or applicable. I think you're getting them confused. sad

(Man, I gotta stop taking so long to post my replies, I keep timing out.)  

[Fushigi na Butterfly]

Well, that's why we have tithing- to make sure that you're not hording your riches. But we should go above and beyond that, of course. For example, I sponsor a child in India. I technically shouldn't, since I have so much debt as it is, but I figure her spiritual and physical health is more important. -shrug-

You're making really good points lately ... when did this start happening?? xd (not that you haven't always made good points, just that they're getting me thinking)  

[The Amazing Ryuu]

And yet, we are still moved to interpret passages differently, even after much prayer and study. How is it that two God-loving people can look at the same parts of the Bible and come to such different beliefs about it, and still be truely confident that it is God moving them both to believe it?  

[freelance lover]

I think part of it depends on which portion of the Bible you're looking at too. Wisdom literature like Proverbs was meant to be discusses and debated, where as the rules in the Torah... well, not so much!

Though in general I do believe that people need to find their own path to God, and therefore their own interpretation. But there is being on in the Holy Spirit. There's a fine line, I think.  

[Priestley]

Fushigi na Butterfly

Well, that's why we have tithing- to make sure that you're not hording your riches. But we should go above and beyond that, of course. For example, I sponsor a child in India. I technically shouldn't, since I have so much debt as it is, but I figure her spiritual and physical health is more important. -shrug-

You're making really good points lately ... when did this start happening?? xd (not that you haven't always made good points, just that they're getting me thinking)

Yeah, tithing is great and everything, as the general idea is that the amount one donates increases as one's wealth increases, but if you take a look at the widow's offering (Mark 12:41-44, Luke 21:1-4), you'll see that the proportion of one's wealth is what matters, not necessarily the amount. As you say, you're not exactly wealthy but you give a significant proportion out of what little you have. Good going! 3nodding

And yeah, I don't know why I'm making good points. Maybe it's because I have something to offer at last! 4laugh  

[Priestley]

ryuu_chan

And yet, we are still moved to interpret passages differently, even after much prayer and study. How is it that two God-loving people can look at the same parts of the Bible and come to such different beliefs about it, and still be truely confident that it is God moving them both to believe it?

Because it's easy to convince and believe oneself to be correct, especially without anyone to keep one in check.  

[Priestley]

freelance lover

I think part of it depends on which portion of the Bible you're looking at too. Wisdom literature like Proverbs was meant to be discusses and debated, where as the rules in the Torah... well, not so much!

Though in general I do believe that people need to find their own path to God, and therefore their own interpretation. But there is being on in the Holy Spirit. There's a fine line, I think.

John 14:6 NIV

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Matthew 7:13-14

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

Luke 13:24 NIV

"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to."

I don't think these passages say anything about there being different paths, ways, doors or gates that lead to God other than Jesus. If a Christian shows Jesus Christ to you and says "this is the way", how can you then say that you'll find your own way?  

[Ixor Firebadger]

Priestley

ryuu_chan

And yet, we are still moved to interpret passages differently, even after much prayer and study. How is it that two God-loving people can look at the same parts of the Bible and come to such different beliefs about it, and still be truely confident that it is God moving them both to believe it?

Because it's easy to convince and believe oneself to be correct, especially without anyone to keep one in check.

Yeah...I kinda have to agree with Priestly. Remember that lady a while back that killed her children because she thought the Bible said to....?

I highly doubt that it was God that moved her to interpret it that way.
And those are the kind of things that happen when we take the attitude that there are many ways to interpret the Bible. People start to find some very twisted interpretations.