Testing Gods

[TeaDidikai]

If I am leaving an offering or making a sacrifice, the nature of the offering ensures the entity it is given to.

However- when we are addressing relationships over simple interactions, the true identity of who you are working with is a valid thing for a person to question and test.  

[SlaineWildfire]

TeaDidikai

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Well, I don't believe in evil

Your lack of belief doesn't invalidate it's existence.

And since when is caution a synonym for paranoia and why does it have to be "evil" for it to mislead someone or misrepresent itself?.

And your (or anyone else's) belief in it doesn't validate it's existence, either.

Caution is one thing, but over the internet, words can be taken stronger than intended and I've noticed that people who are new to paganism, spirituality, and other related fields have a tendency to take things farther than they need to. Also, written words lose some of their context and are harder to interpret than spoken words, so I was trying to be cautionary without creating paranoia. Saying that it's likely that the spirit is misleading you or saying that you should go into the situation acting like it is misleading you seems to be an overreaction, in my opinion, based on my experiences. Which is all I was trying to say from the beginning, but I'm hoping it's at least a bit clearer now.

It doesn't have to be evil to be misleading, but I interpreted the following quote as if you were saying that such thoughtforms as you mentioned were malevolent if it "provides a false sense of security" to think that it's not likely for spirits to lead you astray.

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TeaDidikai Wrote:

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SlaineWildfire Wrote:
It's not likely, but it is possible for spirits to imitate others and lead you astray.

I completely disagree. Not only does it ignore the possibility of thoughtforms who are designed to deceive, but it provides a false sense of security.

I'm not really sure if what I said just made any sense at all, but it's as clear as I can get it.  

[TeaDidikai]

SlaineWildfire

And your (or anyone else's) belief in it doesn't validate it's existence, either.

That isn't completely true. See, within objective reality we are able to express evil as a solid concept. We understand (unless we are in an abject state of delusion that morals are designed by a community or society and that evil, by definition is an reprehensible action in the face of these morals. We have other definitions as well and we clearly see them played out in our society.

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Caution is one thing, but over the internet, words can be taken stronger than intended and I've noticed that people who are new to paganism, spirituality, and other related fields have a tendency to take things farther than they need to.

Which does not invalidate the risks involved in blindly working with beings who by nature are designed to deceive them- nor does their inexperience change ratios.

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Also, written words lose some of their context and are harder to interpret than spoken words, so I was trying to be cautionary without creating paranoia. Saying that it's likely that the spirit is misleading you or saying that you should go into the situation acting like it is misleading you seems to be an overreaction, in my opinion, based on my experiences. Which is all I was trying to say from the beginning, but I'm hoping it's at least a bit clearer now.

And I think it is far from an over reaction when an in depth study of mythology and other metaphysical and spiritual traditions are applied.

Even when we ignore thought forms posing as other things, and the objectively baneful beings in different traditions across the world, we still are left with historical revisionism from the pop-pagan scene wherein The Morrigan is depicted as a perky love goddess.

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It doesn't have to be evil to be misleading, but I interpreted the following quote as if you were saying that such thoughtforms as you mentioned were malevolent if it "provides a false sense of security" to think that it's not likely for spirits to lead you astray.

You misunderstand.

Some constructs are misleading because of the terms of their generation. I don't blame the thoughtform for their creator's error. But that doesn't mean it is truthful either.  

[Gideon Starorzewski]

TeaDidikai

If such can be supported, more power to it.

I'm not saying it is impossible for gods to do such. I am saying however- that to assume such is happening without seeking the truth is foolish.

I absolutely agree.

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And what I am seeing amongst the Hellenic community is that direct and dramatic experience still isn't common.

This is one reason I mention the difference between the generic neo-pagans and the Recons. The other thing that has happened is that people have changed the concept of Patron Gods around. No longer is it a god who is paid tribute to based on lifestyle, but these figures are now assumed to take an active role in one's life on a personal and direct level.

This is true, and I think rather silly. My personal philosophy and experience based in UPG (which I wouldn't say counts for much because I'm still very much finding my way with all of this) is that I don't expect the gods to respond to me or manifest a specific change in the material world, unless the request is in line with their sphere of influence and what their likely agenda within that sphere of influence is. I mean, you're asking a vast and powerful entity for a favor, so you really shouldn't expect to get one unless you make it worth their while.

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However- I would challenge these folks to meet the same measures that the Catholic Nuns and Buddhist Monks in Andrew Newberg's show when their brain activity is in the same place.

Fair enough. I mean to say that a higher number means a greater chance of success, not that all or even a majority are successful.

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I think that is a lovely view- however, the objective hard polytheist in me reminds myself that just because we seek a relationship, doesn't mean we receive one. Otherwise, the world would have no stalkers.

I don't mean to posit that much of a Pollyannaish view, simply an optimistic one. I know I've certainly been ignored before. xp That's probably a sure sign that you're not getting something legit, if the gods are beating down your door to say hello and wash your dishes.

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I would hardly call this flourishing. I mean- Christendom, Judaism and Islamic populations make up almost 55% of the world's population.

Well it's a lot more open and active than it has been in the west for the last couple centuries.

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Maybe the gods are answering our calls more because more of us are calling.

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If neo-paganism accounts for roughly a million people, worshiping gods from all around the world compared to whole populations worshiping the gods of their lands prior to conversion, the numbers for your assertion don't add up.

I don't mean worshiping in general though, I mean seeking a direct relationship/audience through invocation, evocation, astral travel and other such means, the parts of worship that "being your own clergy" affect the most.

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I'd argue that the attitudes common amongst the portions of the scene that have the higher incidences of these kinds of experiences do not support a "genuine" desire to communicate with the gods as much of it is tainted with disenfranchisement.

Right, but all I'm trying to say is that among all of the Mr. Darks, there likely are at least a few individuals who aren't just chasing their tails. The problem is that it isn't always easy to seperate the wheat from the chaff, especially when the chaff is so obnoxiously vocal.  

[Gideon Starorzewski]

SlaineWildfire

Well, I don't believe in evil

Even if you recognize the word "evil" for the linguistic and ideological trap that it is, there still has to be the recognition that not all forces in the universe are positive; otherwise concepts such as the law of threefold return or just basic magical blowback would be completely invalid. There are forces that seek to elevate us and the world around us and there are those that seek to degrade it. Worded like that, it inspires caution. Evil inspires paranoia, or is at least more likely to as it gets all too commonly interpreted as a force of blind, unrelentingly negative character, which is to deny the inherently complex nature of all things in life. Banishing spells weren't invented for shits and giggles, after all.  

[TeaDidikai]

Gideon Starorzewski

Fair enough. I mean to say that a higher number means a greater chance of success, not that all or even a majority are successful.

I consider this assertion to be flawed.

If people are equally incompetent at a task that requires skill, their competency dictates their success, not their numbers. (I got this great mental image of the Evil Monkey from Family guy typing Shakespeare then pointing at me as I wrote that. I think I need a vacation. )

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I don't mean to posit that much of a Pollyannaish view, simply an optimistic one. I know I've certainly been ignored before. xp That's probably a sure sign that you're not getting something legit, if the gods are beating down your door to say hello and wash your dishes.

I know people who do this with gods who have specifically stated they do not wish to interact with these folks. It's always interesting at least.

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I don't mean worshiping in general though, I mean seeking a direct relationship/audience through invocation, evocation, astral travel and other such means, the parts of worship that "being your own clergy" affect the most.

And if this effort is expressed inappropriately, then it doesn't improve their chances.

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Right, but all I'm trying to say is that among all of the Mr. Darks, there likely are at least a few individuals who aren't just chasing their tails. The problem is that it isn't always easy to seperate the wheat from the chaff, especially when the chaff is so obnoxiously vocal.

I have no doubt that some people have very valid direct experiences with certain gods. However, these individuals should be able to "separate the wheat from the chaff" by testing their experiences.

Oh! A spiritual Cotten Jin if you will!

Gideon Starorzewski

Even if you recognize the word "evil" for the linguistic and ideological trap that it is, there still has to be the recognition that not all forces in the universe are positive;

I don't consider evil and negative to be synonyms either.

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Evil inspires paranoia,

I wouldn't say that either. I would say that unstable psychology inspires paranoia- that rational thought discourages it.  

[SlaineWildfire]

Rather than quoting everything, I think that I'll just say this...

I wasn't trying to tell her not to be careful, and I wasn't trying to tell her not to test things nor was I trying to tell her that it's not possible for a spirit to deceive her. In fact, if you'll read my original post, I gave several suggestions for testing the spirit to prove it's truthfulness. I'm just saying that most of the time, in my personal experience, there are more positive spirits than negative. I'm NOT claiming any absolute truth, nor am I claiming that what I think is how the world is structured. I'm simply giving my opinion, which I believe was asked for (not mine personally, but opinions in general), which is based on my personal experiences.

I do apologize for misunderstanding your words, though unfortunately that does happen from time to time. I also wasn't trying to spark a long conversation about whether or not evil exists, or whether or not the mythologies or stories of the past apply to the present and to me in specific. I was just trying to help.  

[TeaDidikai]

SlaineWildfire

I'm just saying that most of the time, in my personal experience, there are more positive spirits than negative.

You're still misunderstanding. A spirit doesn't have to be a "negative" spirit to mislead people.

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I also wasn't trying to spark a long conversation about whether or not evil exists, or whether or not the mythologies or stories of the past apply to the present and to me in specific. I was just trying to help.

Intentional or not- it happened, why ignore it?

As for helping, I think your position is well intention, but I am also aware that intention does not always affect outcome.  

[SlaineWildfire]

As far as misunderstanding goes... I believe that if a spirit is misleading me by pretending to be a God/Goddess that I crave interaction with, regardless of what they mean by it, I'm going to think of it as negative and therefore the spirit is negative to me.

Why ignore it? Because we're stealing the thread, for one. And for two, because I disagree with you, you disagree with me, and never shall we change that. So why bother beating it into the ground?  

[Loona Wynd]

Question on this topic:

Say I wanted to contact Shekmet (sp?) or Bast for their healing aspects, and some one comes, but doesn't show their "face" only blinding sunlight surrounding them, how can I find out who it was? I believe it was a healing deity, and I think it may have been one of them, I just don't know how to see who it was/is.  

[patch99329]

loona wynd

Question on this topic:

Say I wanted to contact Shekmet (sp?) or Bast for their healing aspects, and some one comes, but doesn't show their "face" only blinding sunlight surrounding them, how can I find out who it was? I believe it was a healing deity, and I think it may have been one of them, I just don't know how to see who it was/is.

Not saying it was actually him.
But apollo is associated with the sun as well as healing. ninja

Why not just ask?  

[ShadowSharrow]

loona wynd

Question on this topic:

Say I wanted to contact Shekmet (sp?) or Bast for their healing aspects, and some one comes, but doesn't show their "face" only blinding sunlight surrounding them, how can I find out who it was? I believe it was a healing deity, and I think it may have been one of them, I just don't know how to see who it was/is.

I would suggest focusing on 1 of them and not letting your mind wander/slip/( please insert noninsulting way of saying getting distracted) and I would look at learning as much as possible about thier story/myths as possible to help you clue in to if it is them or not.  

[TeaDidikai]

SlaineWildfire

As far as misunderstanding goes... I believe that if a spirit is misleading me by pretending to be a God/Goddess that I crave interaction with, regardless of what they mean by it, I'm going to think of it as negative and therefore the spirit is negative to me.

Isn't that a bit like blaming the victim? Some thoughtforms aren't misleading intentionally after all. That's just the way they are built.

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Why ignore it? Because we're stealing the thread, for one.

Conversations are organic and they shift as relevant information is brought to the context presented.

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And for two, because I disagree with you, you disagree with me, and never shall we change that. So why bother beating it into the ground?

Because this guide is designed to share information and dodging valid questions can confuse people.  

[TeaDidikai]

loona wynd

Question on this topic:

Say I wanted to contact Shekmet (sp?) or Bast for their healing aspects,

Why reduce gods to aspects?

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I believe it was a healing deity

What makes you believe so?  

[TatteredAngel]

loona wynd

Question on this topic:

Say I wanted to contact Shekmet (sp?) or Bast for their healing aspects, and some one comes, but doesn't show their "face" only blinding sunlight surrounding them, how can I find out who it was? I believe it was a healing deity, and I think it may have been one of them, I just don't know how to see who it was/is.

Another thought-- if you aren't firmly sure who you are dealing with in specific, and what you're looking for is a particular function, maybe what you're looking at is asking for an archetype rather than a specific named god, who has multiple facets and may not be ideal for your singular inention.