A few questions about stones and gems.

[Fiddlers Green]

deito

Sorry, thats from a stoneworkers point of view... better to find a naturally holed one, at least then you don't break it.

Ah, rightio. 3nodding

Now, there are some stones with a natural inclination to being carved or the like, and can be shaped thusly with no harm to the actual molecular structure and integrity. 3nodding  

[TeaDidikai]

deito

Sorry, thats from a stoneworkers point of view...

Ummm... ever tried "punching" a hole in amber without heating your awl?

"Punching" holes is a good way to shatter a stone.

Sophist

Like I said, if she cares to know, she'll ask.

Or she may not know to ask.


That's the problem with the fluffy books out on the market these days. Googled instructions don't give the mechanics of magic unless you find a quality source.

"Light X on fire and poof, you're a Millionaire" doesn't work and giving incomplete information is a disservice as it wastes their time and might even diminish their confidence in their ability to affect their own spiritual path.  

[Bastemhet]

TeaDidikai

Sophist

Like I said, if she cares to know, she'll ask.

Or she may not know to ask.


That's the problem with the fluffy books out on the market these days. Googled instructions don't give the mechanics of magic unless you find a quality source.

"Light X on fire and poof, you're a Millionaire" doesn't work and giving incomplete information is a disservice as it wastes their time and might even diminish their confidence in their ability to affect their own spiritual path.

I agree, which is why I addressed this in my second post. When I say that "If it works for you, go with it" I'm letting her know that she is the ultimate authority on her own spirituality. Crystals and such don't really have one meaning, because from what I've seen most of it seems to be UPG based off of loose geology. That's why if she feels a benefit from believing that certain stones will help her, then I absolutely encourage her to continue believing it. I don't care if she doesn't become a scholar on stones. I do care, though, that she get the emotional and spiritual satisfaction out of using tools, whether they be crystals, or whatever else. If this were about an already established religion, however, I would definitely recommend she research more.  

[TeaDidikai]

Sophist

I agree, which is why I addressed this in my second post. When I say that "If it works for you, go with it" I'm letting her know that she is the ultimate authority on her own spirituality.

Without giving her any tools to codify it.

Which is the problem.

"If X works for you... go for it!" is extremely irresponsible advice without putting qualifiers on it.

Quote:

I do care, though, that she get the emotional and spiritual satisfaction out of using tools, whether they be crystals, or whatever else. If this were about an already established religion, however, I would definitely recommend she research more.

And we don't know anything about her personal position on the matters.

You give a list of "Do X" without mention of why X is valid- nor do you challenge her to think for herself as to why X is valid.  

[TeaDidikai]

As a side note- it makes a poor justification for action.

"Why are you digging holes and dropping stones in the dirt?"

"Because the person on the internet said it would cleanse them."

It makes no reference to what does the cleansing, what is being cleansed, why it needs to be cleansed, the dynamic exchanges between those seeking the item cleansed and the item itself, the psychology of it... any real justification for a practice is left out and it hangs solely on "This person on the web told me to".

As for the meanings of gems, many come from UPG and loose lore passed down (largely from Hellenic Culture), but a great deal of it also comes from religious traditions.

Amber may mean something to a Hellenic it won't mean to a Vanatru.  

[Bastemhet]

TeaDidikai

Sophist

I agree, which is why I addressed this in my second post. When I say that "If it works for you, go with it" I'm letting her know that she is the ultimate authority on her own spirituality.

Without giving her any tools to codify it.

Which is the problem.

"If X works for you... go for it!" is extremely irresponsible advice without putting qualifiers on it.

Quote:

I do care, though, that she get the emotional and spiritual satisfaction out of using tools, whether they be crystals, or whatever else. If this were about an already established religion, however, I would definitely recommend she research more.

And we don't know anything about her personal position on the matters.

You give a list of "Do X" without mention of why X is valid- nor do you challenge her to think for herself as to why X is valid.

I didn't say they were valid. I said they're what I've heard of. It's up to her to research its validity, which is what I encouraged her to do in my second post. If you would like to explain to her the mechanics of it, be my guest. I'm not an expert on crystals, so since I'm not really qualified to give expert advice, at least maybe you can help her out.  

[TeaDidikai]

Sophist

I didn't say they were valid. I said they're what I've heard of.

You're a smart person. Otherwise I wouldn't bother. I challenged the assumptions because this is a rehab guild. We're trying to break patters of lackluster scholarship augmented by appeals to authority.

After all, if such was not the case- we could very well start teaching Dan Brown's novels as historical fact upon which Christian Wiccans can base their theology.

Quote:

It's up to her to research its validity

And it is up to us to help her.

The fact that it took me posting a challenge to you before you suggested she research further is unsettling.

I am all for trying to have a good time here. I come to the rehab guild to have fun just like everyone else- but the kind of advice offered here should be of a certain caliber- and while that doesn't mean universally inclusive, it should at least be offered in a responsible manner.

People shouldn't be afraid to post- but a certain amount of thoughtfulness is essential to the nature of the guild.

As Alexander Pope once pointed out:

A little learning is a dangerous thing; drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, and drinking largely sobers us again.  

[Bastemhet]

I appreciate the concern. I will be sure to add a disclaimer to my posts to keep you settled, Tea. 3nodding  

[TeaDidikai]

Sophist

I appreciate the concern. I will be sure to add a disclaimer to my posts to keep you settled, Tea. 3nodding

Tell you what. If your intention is to "keep me settled" with "disclaimers" rather than to help others by thinking long and hard about advice given to people before you post, I shall be happy to disregard your posts in total.  

[Bastemhet]

TeaDidikai

Sophist

I appreciate the concern. I will be sure to add a disclaimer to my posts to keep you settled, Tea. 3nodding

Tell you what. If your intention is to "keep me settled" with "disclaimers" rather than to help others by thinking long and hard about advice given to people before you post, I shall be happy to disregard your posts in total.

I always do that. I don't always necessarily have a wealth of information on my side, which is why a disclaimer would be necessary. I don't think it's fair to require that I know everything before I post. I will certainly refrain from posting false information if I know it's false.  

[[BlkCat]]

TeaDidikai

Sophist

I appreciate the concern. I will be sure to add a disclaimer to my posts to keep you settled, Tea. 3nodding

Tell you what. If your intention is to "keep me settled" with "disclaimers" rather than to help others by thinking long and hard about advice given to people before you post, I shall be happy to disregard your posts in total.

Stop acting like such a know-it-all. You seem like a very self centered and closed minded person. Grow. Up. You're constantly picking apart anything anybody says that you don't agree with, it's very childish.  

[Bastemhet]

[BlkCat]

TeaDidikai

Sophist

I appreciate the concern. I will be sure to add a disclaimer to my posts to keep you settled, Tea. 3nodding

Tell you what. If your intention is to "keep me settled" with "disclaimers" rather than to help others by thinking long and hard about advice given to people before you post, I shall be happy to disregard your posts in total.

Stop acting like such a know-it-all. You seem like a very self centered and closed minded person. Grow. Up. You're constantly picking apart anything anybody says that you don't agree with, it's very childish.

Well I can understand why she doesn't want incomplete info being spread around. I'm just not sure a challenge is necessary every time she disagrees with how I word things. But if that's how she works then that's how she works. I'm not going to let that discourage me from posting here because I appreciate the scholarly atmosphere toward paganism.  

[TeaDidikai]

Sophist

I always do that.

Then why do you habitually give incomplete information to people who may not know it is incomplete?

Quote:

I don't always necessarily have a wealth of information on my side, which is why a disclaimer would be necessary.

Or research.

Perhaps instead of tossing out an idea and hoping someone will fill in the gaps you left, it would be prudent to research your recommendations before you offer them?

"Because it is popular" isn't a good reason to do something and that is all I am seeing you offer.

Quote:

I don't think it's fair to require that I know everything before I post.

Everything? Heavens no.

But something more than "Light X on Fire" would be good.

My point is- you aren't presenting useful information beyond regurgitating pop-paganism.

It actually reminds me of something we saw in M&R a while back.

This girl was having issues with the way a Meso-pagan had been conducting a ritual. She was under the misimpression that it should have been done a certain way because she expected that such was how the "Wiccans" did it.

Well, reality set in. She wasn't dealing with Wicca. And a fair amount of the information presented to "help" her may well have been detrimental.

This is why generic "Do X and everything will be copacetic." is BAD advice. It lacks context. It lacks understanding.

The most vile of example of this mentality I have come across are the men in Africa who tell other men that having sex with infants will cure their AIDS.

This isn't so dramatic. But it is just as intellectually dishonest.

[BlkCat]

Stop acting like such a know-it-all.

Having knowledge comes with the responsibility to use it properly. Having seen the abuse that a "little learning" can bring- I speak up when I see people offering poor advice. And that is what this is. It's wan in it's understanding.

Quote:

You seem like a very self centered

You do not know of which you speak. I highly suggest that you retract that assertion.

Quote:

and closed minded person.

As for "closed minded", I am more than happy to be considered closed minded by fools who are so open minded that their brains have fallen out.

Quote:

Grow. Up. You're constantly picking apart anything anybody says that you don't agree with, it's very childish.

I always find this amusing.

I "pick apart" information. That's how I learn. I do it in part because large blocks of texts create havoc with my ability to read and understand what is being said.

Perhaps instead of saying "You're a big meanie for telling us we're wrong!", you might actually address the issue.

A little information- presented to an eager listener without context can be harmful.  

[Bastemhet]

Quote:

Or research.

Perhaps instead of tossing out an idea and hoping someone will fill in the gaps you left, it would be prudent to research your recommendations before you offer them?

"Because it is popular" isn't a good reason to do something and that is all I am seeing you offer.

See, this is a great example of you being concise and to the point. Rather than set up an adversarial atmosphere where everything I say will be picked apart, ridiculed and used against me, I would rather you just tell me what you mean, like you did above. In one post.

Yes I know that the information I offered was not complete, but my intention was to point her in a direction and let her research it herself. I don't have any other information, which is why I offered nothing else. If I did have it, I would have. And I think she would benefit if you spent some of your time helping her in that way rather than trying to show me how wrong I am.

I promise not to offer incomplete information if you can treat me in a respectful manner by not "challenging" me every time you disagree with me. If you say you want to enjoy this guild just like everyone else, then please respect this request, because that's what I need to enjoy it here too. I'm not asking you to not point out when I'm wrong, because there will be times when I am, and I fully appreciate when I can learn from you the correct way. I just don't want to have any more 5 page battles with you, ok?  

[deito]

Did I miss the socratic mechanics discussion?