Judas

[Lyneun]

Lethkhar

Lyneun

We owe our salvation to God. It was God's plan, and his gift. Because without his sacrifice, we'd have no hope. Satan-el played a part in it, but he was only a piece. To take your eyes off the one who made the actual decision (God) you are simply lying to yourself. Satan-el didn't save us. God did.

But God was the one who damned us in the first place, wasn't he?

No. We damned us. Shifting blame just makes the situation worse. Humanity was given everything, everything it desired, and we threw it away. Don't say that none of us wouldn't have done the same thing as those in Genesis did, because we all would have. He didn't make us sin. We did it ourselves. We are continually damning ourselves.  

[GuardianAngel44]

Well said. I've been trying to make that point for years, and you sum it up perfectly. Again, well said.  

[Lethkhar]

Lyneun

Lethkhar

Lyneun

We owe our salvation to God. It was God's plan, and his gift. Because without his sacrifice, we'd have no hope. Satan-el played a part in it, but he was only a piece. To take your eyes off the one who made the actual decision (God) you are simply lying to yourself. Satan-el didn't save us. God did.

But God was the one who damned us in the first place, wasn't he?

No. We damned us. Shifting blame just makes the situation worse. Humanity was given everything, everything it desired, and we threw it away. Don't say that none of us wouldn't have done the same thing as those in Genesis did, because we all would have. He didn't make us sin. We did it ourselves. We are continually damning ourselves.

No, I still don't understand.

Imagine this situation:
A small child is shot to death. Further investigation reveals that the child's mother put it in a playpen with the knife and told it once not to touch the knife. Then the mother put in the small child's cousin, a convicted mass murderer who just recently got out of juvenile hall, in the playpen with the child. The cousin put some chocolate on the knife and told the child that the knife was ok to touch. The child touched it for the chocolate and was not hurt. Then the mother came along, shouted at the child for disobeying, and shot it in the face.

Who is to blame for the child's death?

"Now, I'm not having a go at him, 'cus he is brilliant. But in my humble opinion, I think the snake was a mistake."-Gervais.  

[Fushigi na Butterfly]

The problem with that analogy is that Satan (here represented by the juvie hall cousin) was not specifically put into the Garden (or playpen). He was already there. God wasn't going to step in because all three parties involved had free will. They knew what they were told and they knew the consequences.  

[Lyneun]

It's true. Eve and Adam were adults, not children, clearly told that to disobey God was to die. They knew the path of each choice, and higher intelligence than a child. stare

I don't know how I could further explain what I said before  

[Lethkhar]

Fushigi na Butterfly

The problem with that analogy is that Satan (here represented by the juvie hall cousin) was not specifically put into the Garden (or playpen). He was already there. God wasn't going to step in because all three parties involved had free will. They knew what they were told and they knew the consequences.

Sorry, then. The child is put in after the juvie hall cousin. stare

Why not put them in different "playpens"?  

[Lethkhar]

Lyneun

It's true. Eve and Adam were adults, not children, clearly told that to disobey God was to die. They knew the path of each choice, and higher intelligence than a child. stare

I doubt that. They were created as adults, and consideirng their sheltered existence they hardly had the experience and wisdom of the average adult. They had yet to experience "sin", and this in turn left them ill equipped to deal with it. They more innocent than children, and probably were no wiser than the average child.

Besides, you have to question someone's intelligence when they're tricked into eating something by a snake... wink (That was a joke)  

[Lyneun]

All of this is just speculation, actually (whether they were adults or not), but they were warned, and told the outcome of their disobedience.  

[GuardianAngel44]

Lethkhar

Lyneun

Lethkhar

Lyneun

We owe our salvation to God. It was God's plan, and his gift. Because without his sacrifice, we'd have no hope. Satan-el played a part in it, but he was only a piece. To take your eyes off the one who made the actual decision (God) you are simply lying to yourself. Satan-el didn't save us. God did.

But God was the one who damned us in the first place, wasn't he?

No. We damned us. Shifting blame just makes the situation worse. Humanity was given everything, everything it desired, and we threw it away. Don't say that none of us wouldn't have done the same thing as those in Genesis did, because we all would have. He didn't make us sin. We did it ourselves. We are continually damning ourselves.

No, I still don't understand.

Imagine this situation:
A small child is shot to death. Further investigation reveals that the child's mother put it in a playpen with the knife and told it once not to touch the knife. Then the mother put in the small child's cousin, a convicted mass murderer who just recently got out of juvenile hall, in the playpen with the child. The cousin put some chocolate on the knife and told the child that the knife was ok to touch. The child touched it for the chocolate and was not hurt. Then the mother came along, shouted at the child for disobeying, and shot it in the face.

Who is to blame for the child's death?

"Now, I'm not having a go at him, 'cus he is brilliant. But in my humble opinion, I think the snake was a mistake."-Gervais.

First point: we have a much higher intelligence than a child. this analogy hardly applies.  

[GuardianAngel44]

Lethkhar

Fushigi na Butterfly

The problem with that analogy is that Satan (here represented by the juvie hall cousin) was not specifically put into the Garden (or playpen). He was already there. God wasn't going to step in because all three parties involved had free will. They knew what they were told and they knew the consequences.

Sorry, then. The child is put in after the juvie hall cousin. stare

Why not put them in different "playpens"?

He gave us a choice. Without a choice to love him or sin, the love wouldn't mean all that much.

Basically: If he put us in different playpens, there wouldn't be a choice, and therefore our love would mean almost nothing.  

[Lethkhar]

GuardianAngel44

Lethkhar

Fushigi na Butterfly

The problem with that analogy is that Satan (here represented by the juvie hall cousin) was not specifically put into the Garden (or playpen). He was already there. God wasn't going to step in because all three parties involved had free will. They knew what they were told and they knew the consequences.

Sorry, then. The child is put in after the juvie hall cousin. stare

Why not put them in different "playpens"?

He gave us a choice. Without a choice to love him or sin, the love wouldn't mean all that much.

Basically: If he put us in different playpens, there wouldn't be a choice, and therefore our love would mean almost nothing.

Who cares? Is us loving Him worth burning a vast majority of the world's population for the rest of eternity? Is He really that selfish?

I personally would be ok with not having a choice. It's not like we have one anyway (We already discussed determinism. You conceded, if I remember correctly).  

[GuardianAngel44]

Lethkhar

GuardianAngel44

Lethkhar

Fushigi na Butterfly

The problem with that analogy is that Satan (here represented by the juvie hall cousin) was not specifically put into the Garden (or playpen). He was already there. God wasn't going to step in because all three parties involved had free will. They knew what they were told and they knew the consequences.

Sorry, then. The child is put in after the juvie hall cousin. stare

Why not put them in different "playpens"?

He gave us a choice. Without a choice to love him or sin, the love wouldn't mean all that much.

Basically: If he put us in different playpens, there wouldn't be a choice, and therefore our love would mean almost nothing.

Who cares? Is us loving Him worth burning a vast majority of the world's population for the rest of eternity? Is He really that selfish?

Firstly, if he created the universe, shouldn't it be fair that he creates the rules?
Next, he's not forcing us to go to hell. There is always a choice.

Quote:

I personally would be ok with not having a choice. It's not like we have one anyway (We already discussed determinism. You conceded, if I remember correctly).

I didn't concede. At least not to the point you're making. The future hasn't happened yet. Therefore, it cannot be pre-determined.

On a side note, this is why time-travel is not possible for humans. You can't go to the future because it hasn't happened yet. If you go to the past, then the present (which you exist in) hasn't happened yet. Therefore, you would either cease to exist, or it would be like you never traveled back in time.  

[Lyneun]

Quote:

Who cares? Is us loving Him worth burning a vast majority of the world's population for the rest of eternity? Is He really that selfish?

First off: God is not selfish. That should end the discussion right there. But it doesn't unfortunately. This is the way it is. God is probably one of the only things holding this pitiful world together and keeping us from slaughtering each other. Without God, more of us would die, most possibly all of us. Do you know why angels rejoice every time a soul accepts Jesus' gift? Because it's a rare choice, because so many people die without his name on their lips. They rejoice because that one victory, that one "I love you, Jesus" is so sweet, a seldom heard and distant music in the carnage of death and despair that this world has become.

It is not about the people who Die. He has given them a chance, and until their last breath, he is holding out his hand for them, never tiring, never turning away. It is about the people who live, who accept that hand and finally walk in the Light. That one good love is what it's about. His relationship, with each of us.

(Ah, time travel. I wonder how it works in the Astral realm? Oh that's right, it doesn't exist. wink )  

[GuardianAngel44]

Lyneun

Ah, time travel. I wonder how it works in the Astral realm? Oh that's right, it doesn't exist. wink

It might. I mean, look at it from this point: We believe in an almighty, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient God that has unfathomable love for each and every human being, created the universe from nothing, and, even after we screwed up time and time again, gives us another chance at salvation.

Does the Astral Plane seem all that unlikely now?  

[Lethkhar]

GuardianAngel44

Lethkhar

GuardianAngel44

Lethkhar

Fushigi na Butterfly

The problem with that analogy is that Satan (here represented by the juvie hall cousin) was not specifically put into the Garden (or playpen). He was already there. God wasn't going to step in because all three parties involved had free will. They knew what they were told and they knew the consequences.

Sorry, then. The child is put in after the juvie hall cousin. stare

Why not put them in different "playpens"?

He gave us a choice. Without a choice to love him or sin, the love wouldn't mean all that much.

Basically: If he put us in different playpens, there wouldn't be a choice, and therefore our love would mean almost nothing.

Who cares? Is us loving Him worth burning a vast majority of the world's population for the rest of eternity? Is He really that selfish?

Firstly, if he created the universe, shouldn't it be fair that he creates the rules?

Not at all.

Adults make babies. Does that give them the right to do anything to their baby that they want? Does that give them the right to kill a baby?

For someone that's anti-abortion, I find this to be a somewhat contradictory stance.

Quote:

Next, he's not forcing us to go to hell. There is always a choice.

How is that not blackmail?

Quote:

Quote:

I personally would be ok with not having a choice. It's not like we have one anyway (We already discussed determinism. You conceded, if I remember correctly).

I didn't concede. At least not to the point you're making. The future hasn't happened yet. Therefore, it cannot be pre-determined.

On a side note, this is why time-travel is not possible for humans. You can't go to the future because it hasn't happened yet. If you go to the past, then the present (which you exist in) hasn't happened yet. Therefore, you would either cease to exist, or it would be like you never traveled back in time.

Prove it.

Anyway, predeterminism follows total logic. Technically a material world will follow a complete plan, and there is no free will.