Robin artisson- Yay or nay?

[patch99329]

Blarg. The following has become apparant to me over the past week or so as I have been more exposed to RA's work.

I see where Nuri is coming from when she describes RA's web presence as 'troll-like'.
He threatens with legal action for even the slightest thing (if you join the yahoo group, you actually get an email about it).

In addition, as Ulfrikr says; he really speaks though his arse when it comes to other traditions. I've read some funny ideas abot various shamanic practices from him neutral  

[TeaDidikai]

patch99329

He threatens with legal action for even the slightest thing (if you join the yahoo group, you actually get an email about it).

Really? What's it say?  

[patch99329]

Something about how him and his allies will track down and fight with full force anyone who violates his copyright etc. and that he knows all about law and has a lawyer.  

[TeaDidikai]

patch99329

Something about how him and his allies will track down and fight with full force anyone who violates his copyright etc. and that he knows all about law and has a lawyer.

More power to him for enforcing his copyrights. ~shrugs~  

[Miss Lune Soleil]

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Something about how him and his allies will track down and fight with full force anyone who violates his copyright etc. and that he knows all about law and has a lawyer.

In all fairnes, having been somewhat aware of the problems he's had in the past, I think he's quite justified in protecting his work like that. He's had his past websites hijacked and changed by someone who had a personal grudge against him (for something in real life, I think, not web based religious discussion), as well as people impersonating him on the net.
I've spoken to him a couple of times myself, and he's quite an interesting fellow, even if he's got a weird sense of humour razz I've never seen him actively threaten legal action though, only the aforementioned email (been a member for just over a year now, I think).


I've read WWotHH and Evenwood cover to cover. I loved every bit and it really changed my path for the better, personally. The various practicalities and symbolism in his Witchcraft books make more sense to me than the vague Wicca-esque methods of most Witch books around, as well as the magic methods themselves (what better way to influence a future event than to petition Fate herself, aye? razz ).
I also think his take on deity is perfect for a Witchcult, since their themes and guises are already familiar within Witchcraft, even if he has drawn from spiritual guidance as well as historical.

I don't tend to look at his work from a scholarary perspective (which I think people get too caught up in and end up missing the point of such subjective spirituality as Witchcraft), but that's probably because I'm a Seeker myself and I'm trying to find the practical benefits (since I'm not trying to be a recon of any sort). I think when one reads his work, you have to look with an artistic eye, rather than a culturally critical one. He's basically just taken various practices and ideas from other Pagan cultures, added some of his own personal experience, and used it all to build a modern form of Craft. Sounds familiar, doesn't it? *cough*Gardner*cough* razz That's all Witchcraft is really, a collection of older practices and ideas put together in workable form, so much so that it is always unique from person to person.
Even the Mysteries themselves, while no doubt differing from tradition to tradition, person to person, they will always have the same ring of truth for the people who have experienced them. Always the same, but always changing. Witchcraft itself is similar in this way to the Mysteries that Witchcults keep.

Overall I think it's just another case of "brilliant work, shame about the attitude". I haven't really read anything he's written on other forms of Paganism so I can't comment there. I'm guessing, however, that he's probably stretched himself too far and ended up in another "Golden Bough" type situation; yes the material is good, but parallels have been drawn that probably shouldn't have been, regarding historical/cultural accuracy.

So it's a "yay" from me, based on his Witchcraft work, which is all I need personally.  

[Miss Lune Soleil]

Re: Hedgewitchery

Ah one area I've been trying to dig into myself for a while. From what I gather, a Hedgewitch (in the proper sense) is a Witch who uses various trance states and mind-altaring methods to send their spirit to Otherworlds, sometimes for Sabbat celebrations. (Just as the old myths around Witches include them leaving their bodies, possibly as animals, and "flying" to the Sabbat). They also tend to be hereditarily inclined.
As far as I know, since it's a solitary practice by nature, there are no common charms or spells used amongst Hedgewitches, save for those that may have been passed from previous generations/pracitioners.

From what I've seen, the only common dispute among those who study/practice Hedgewitchery, is that it isn't just "solitary Witchcraft" as a lot of people seem to think, but also includes the methods I mentioned. It's specifically shamanic in nature (ie. shaman-like, before anyone jumps on me for that use of term), which is what most people seem to miss. As far as I know, this is what defines Hedgewitchery today. The practice itself (much like Witchcraft itself) doesn't seem to be culture-specific, since a few countries and time periods describe similar folk, although the terms used today are mainly drawn from the Saxon "haegtessa".

http://www.shadowdrake.com/hedgewitch.html
http://www.shadowdrake.com/hedge.html
I've always been fond of these pages >.>  

[TeaDidikai]

So- you consider Hedgewitchery to be the non-cultural title for neo-pagan otherworld traditions?  

[patch99329]

Phoenixfire Lune Soleil

Overall I think it's just another case of "brilliant work, shame about the attitude". I haven't really read anything he's written on other forms of Paganism so I can't comment there. I'm guessing, however, that he's probably stretched himself too far and ended up in another "Golden Bough" type situation; yes the material is good, but parallels have been drawn that probably shouldn't have been, regarding historical/cultural accuracy.

This much is very true.
His witchcraft books are questionable at times, but on the whole quite insightful. No book is the absoloubt truth. His ideas on other forms of paganism can be *head-> desk* though.
His attitude is highly annoying >.<

By the way, I'm pretty sure you operate in the same circles as me, are you familiar with peter paddon?  

[Miss Lune Soleil]

TeaDidikai

So- you consider Hedgewitchery to be the non-cultural title for neo-pagan otherworld traditions?

Well no, since any neo-pagan otherworld tradition is not necessarely one of witchery. One could be described as the other, but not in an interchangable manner. As with most forms of Craft, I'd say the title of "Hedgewitchery" would be judged on an entirely circumstantial and individual basis, looking at the specific person in question.  

[Miss Lune Soleil]

patch99329

This much is very true.
His witchcraft books are questionable at times, but on the whole quite insightful. No book is the absoloubt truth. His ideas on other forms of paganism can be *head-> desk* though.
His attitude is highly annoying >.<

By the way, I'm pretty sure you operate in the same circles as me, are you familiar with peter paddon?

Aye ^^ I've been listening to his podcast since he released number 14, I think. I'm happily awaiting his own book on Trad Craft to see what that's like.

I think one has to treat Artisson the same way one treats any author on Craft traditions: take what you need and find useful, but don't get caught in the trap of thinking "this is the only way". In fact, he says that himself in his books. He writes them as an effective example he devised, and encourages others to read and be inspired, rather than read and follow to the letter. This is paramount to any study of Witchcraft from a practical perspective.



~~~

Slightly related question to anyone here: Has anyone read Nigel Jackson's work? What did you make of it?
I've read Call of the Horned Piper and i'm making my way through Masks of Misrule. It's clear that Artisson takes much inspiration from his work, and again the material is striking a chord with me.  

[patch99329]

^ Those podcasts are brilliant!



I haven't read Nigel jackson's stuff before, but I'm thinking of asking for a couple of his works as christmas gifts from my mother xD  

[Miss Lune Soleil]

That's cool ^^



Hmm... I was also wondering... slightly off topic but related, again.

Wicca has Mysteries, right? It's long been understood that Gardner created, or recieved, these Mysteries and made them a part of his own Witchcult (ie Wicca). Was he the first to do this? Or were said Mysteries a part derived from the Witch coven he was initiated into? I ask because Wicca is not the only existing Witchcult to include Mysteries of the same/similar nature, even those with no Ceremonial/Wiccan/non-Witchery background to them. To my understanding, Mysteries were/are a part of existing Witchcults (now and possibly pre-Gardner), and became a part of Wicca through Gardner's initiation as a fellow Witch. But then, this is what I have learnt myself from such a Witchcult, as well as my own research and spiritual conclusions, and I may be biased. Thoughts? Insights?

It's my understanding also that some other Witchcults follow a more "original" version of the Horned God and Witch Goddess, without the modern influences of folks like Graves, Leland, or Murray. (This isn't to say they claim to follow an old practice unbroken, but rather they look to original folklore/mythology and draw their own beliefs/practices rather than take the ideas of someone else's such as Murray or Graves. They looked at the information those authors themselves sourced and more). One could say they are the "same" deities as Wicca, but in a more traditional sense rather than a "Gardnerianised" one. Of course, it's only educated speculation, and no Wiccan would comment to confirm or deny it (if they even knew) lol  

[TeaDidikai]

Included within the Mysteries are secret names of deities and mechanics that make Wiccan rituals Wiccan.

To those ends, even if there were similar mysteries present in earlier Witchcults (as mentioned of the Turning of the Nazis and the Cone of Power over the Isles), it is specific to Wicca- Gardner's witchcult, or so he leads us to believe when he speaks of how witnessing the rituals- even the ones that are secret will not impart the Mysteries.

Other British Trad Witchcults aren't considered Wiccan (note the double C's) by the Lineaged Wiccans I am familiar with and they are bound to acknowledge a proper Wiccan by their oaths to my understanding.  

[Miss Lune Soleil]

TeaDidikai

Included within the Mysteries are secret names of deities and mechanics that make Wiccan rituals Wiccan.

True enough, although if the nature of the dieties names are anything like the ones I have heard tell of (if indeed like any other Mysteries themselves), then it's possible such names are not necessarely speakable, even in ritual. Not out of any rule, but simply out of inability due to their nature. It's hard to describe really..

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To those ends, even if there were similar mysteries present in earlier Witchcults (as mentioned of the Turning of the Nazis and the Cone of Power over the Isles), it is specific to Wicca- Gardner's witchcult, or so he leads us to believe when he speaks of how witnessing the rituals- even the ones that are secret will not impart the Mysteries.

I'm aware that rituals themselves do not impart the Mysteries, I think that in itself is part of it. I'm thinking along the lines of Mystery based Witchcults, Wiccan or not, still sharing enough raw belief and kinship to share some Mysteries too, even if independantly. If the Mysteries themselves are granted by the divine Initiator(s) rather than from another person, then I think it's entirely possible for such traditions to be granted them independantly. Particularly the Mysteries concerning the nature of life itself and its processes, since they out of all the Mysteries are closest to being universally true (even if they are interpreted in different ways from Witch to Witch, since they are UPG based also).

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Other British Trad Witchcults aren't considered Wiccan (note the double C's) by the Lineaged Wiccans I am familiar with and they are bound to acknowledge a proper Wiccan by their oaths to my understanding.

That's fair enough, though I was thinking how far they would acknowledge them as fellow Witches due to their Mystery based initations, even if they are not Wiccans.  

[TeaDidikai]

Phoenixfire Lune Soleil

Slightly related question to anyone here: Has anyone read Nigel Jackson's work? What did you make of it?
I've read Call of the Horned Piper and i'm making my way through Masks of Misrule. It's clear that Artisson takes much inspiration from his work, and again the material is striking a chord with me.

I'm not impressed. It really only appeals to one specific ideology that isn't actually supported in the cultures that he draws from.

That is to say- he's only a shade better than Murray in my opinion.

Phoenixfire Lune Soleil

True enough, although if the nature of the dieties names are anything like the ones I have heard tell of (if indeed like any other Mysteries themselves), then it's possible such names are not necessarely speakable, even in ritual. Not out of any rule, but simply out of inability due to their nature. It's hard to describe really..

I understand where you're coming from, and I think (correct me if I'm wrong) you may be confusing the names with the idea that place holders are used for people who have not been initiated.

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...I think it's entirely possible for such traditions to be granted them independantly.

I've argued such myself.

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That's fair enough, though I was thinking how far they would acknowledge them as fellow Witches due to their Mystery based initations, even if they are not Wiccans.

Not sure this is a function of being Wiccan, but a function of being a Witch. That is to say- the lineaged Wiccans I know IRL accept that unlike Wicca, Witch was a term in use prior to Gardner's tradition and it goes beyond their personal experience to the point where while they are happy to argue the entitlement of the title Wiccan, they take no such issue with Witch.

Were I to be a Witch in my own right- I doubt any of them would argue with me should I choose to call myself such.