Paganism and You: Where do you stand?

[Sivirs]

Hell Yeah Seaking

I believe that magic truly has no color. Dark and light, cold and hot, evil and good. They're are just opposites. I understand that some, such as myself, prefer night over day, and that shadow is created from light. I just wanted to use terms others could connect with

I think what Tea's getting at with the second part of her question isn't why you used the term black magic at all, but rather she's asking why sacrificing a goat automatically makes a spell the kind of spell someone would typically call "black magic," i.e. do you know that the spell was a nasty one that someone using the stereotypical black/white dichotomy would set under black (hexes, curses, whatever), or are you just calling it black because there was a goat being sacrificed, regardless of the spell the sacrifice was needed for? And if so, then why does a goat sacrifice automatically make it black magic?

Correct me if I'm wrong, of course, Miss Tea. wink  

[Hell Yeah Seaking]

Sivirs

Hell Yeah Seaking

I believe that magic truly has no color. Dark and light, cold and hot, evil and good. They're are just opposites. I understand that some, such as myself, prefer night over day, and that shadow is created from light. I just wanted to use terms others could connect with

I think what Tea's getting at with the second part of her question isn't why you used the term black magic at all, but rather she's asking why sacrificing a goat automatically makes a spell the kind of spell someone would typically call "black magic," i.e. do you know that the spell was a nasty one that someone using the stereotypical black/white dichotomy would set under black (hexes, curses, whatever), or are you just calling it black because there was a goat being sacrificed, regardless of the spell the sacrifice was needed for? And if so, then why does a goat sacrifice automatically make it black magic?

Correct me if I'm wrong, of course, Miss Tea. wink

I say that based on the information and superstitions i grew up with. My mom feels the goat represents Satan as do many people, and the fact that the sacrifice was done at a crossroads doesn't help it to look like white magic. It may have just been a sacrifice, to keep any demonic spirits from bringing harm, to keep them appeased, i actually don't know why it was done, but to me it sounds a bit more dark than light  

[TeaDidikai]

Hell Yeah Seaking

I use it as a term that has commonly been used.

Common use is not the same as accurate use.

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I believe that magic truly has no color.

Then why apply such concepts to it?

Sivirs

Correct me if I'm wrong, of course, Miss Tea. wink

Spot on- save for the fact I am a Ms. Tea- not a Miss Tea.

Hell Yeah Seaking

I say that based on the information and superstitions i grew up with.

Most pagans in America are raised within a Neo-Christian culture- that is to say that which most people grow up with suggests that all magic is evil.

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My mom feels the goat represents Satan as do many people, and the fact that the sacrifice was done at a crossroads doesn't help it to look like white magic.

And why do you ascribe cross roads to "black magic"?

I can think of at least five different cultures that hold crossroads as holy places. And given that the traditions and cultures you are addressing- the crossroads unto themselves are neither "black nor white".

In fact- out of the Loa that come to mind, two thirds are not cruel beyond reason within their folklore.

Further- if you suggest that this is Africa-Romano theology- then you know the goat is a blood sacrifice and has nothing to do with Satan within this theological context. Depending on what they were doing- they could have used chickens etc.

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It may have just been a sacrifice, to keep any demonic spirits from bringing harm, to keep them appeased, i actually don't know why it was done, but to me it sounds a bit more dark than light

Why did you say you thought magic had no color and then you attribute sight based concepts to it?  

[TheDisreputableDog]

I'm Kemetic recon, pretty much, which is to say that I follow the Egyptian gods in some semblance of the traditional ways. I'm pagan in that sense. Otherwise I'm Unitarian Universalist, in which sense I am not pagan.

I am in love with Egyptian art and architecture, but I doubt my life would be very fun if I actually lived back in the day. I am fully aware of how lucky I am to have the life I have.  

[TeaDidikai]

TheDisreputableDog

I'm Kemetic recon, pretty much, which is to say that I follow the Egyptian gods in some semblance of the traditional ways. I'm pagan in that sense. Otherwise I'm Unitarian Universalist, in which sense I am not pagan.

I am in love with Egyptian art and architecture, but I doubt my life would be very fun if I actually lived back in the day. I am fully aware of how lucky I am to have the life I have.

Do you take part in CUUPS?  

[Hell Yeah Seaking]

TeaDidikai

Hell Yeah Seaking

I use it as a term that has commonly been used.

Common use is not the same as accurate use.

Quote:

I believe that magic truly has no color.

Then why apply such concepts to it?

Sivirs

Correct me if I'm wrong, of course, Miss Tea. wink

Spot on- save for the fact I am a Ms. Tea- not a Miss Tea.

Hell Yeah Seaking

I say that based on the information and superstitions i grew up with.

Most pagans in America are raised within a Neo-Christian culture- that is to say that which most people grow up with suggests that all magic is evil.

Quote:

My mom feels the goat represents Satan as do many people, and the fact that the sacrifice was done at a crossroads doesn't help it to look like white magic.

And why do you ascribe cross roads to "black magic"?

I can think of at least five different cultures that hold crossroads as holy places. And given that the traditions and cultures you are addressing- the crossroads unto themselves are neither "black nor white".

In fact- out of the Loa that come to mind, two thirds are not cruel beyond reason within their folklore.

Further- if you suggest that this is Africa-Romano theology- then you know the goat is a blood sacrifice and has nothing to do with Satan within this theological context. Depending on what they were doing- they could have used chickens etc.

Quote:

It may have just been a sacrifice, to keep any demonic spirits from bringing harm, to keep them appeased, i actually don't know why it was done, but to me it sounds a bit more dark than light

Why did you say you thought magic had no color and then you attribute sight based concepts to it?

I applied such things to it so that others may see the the common "inaccurate" term and understand what I was attempting to imply, If there are any other terms you would like me to use in order to distiguish between good and evil magic, please feel free to do so.

I was not raised in a Neo-Christian culture. My mom understands magic as both Good and Evil, depending on how it is used. The way she described this particular ceremony implied that it was evil. I actually have pictures and videos of Good ceremonies that my mom has actually thrown for a large community.

And about the crossroads, I must admit that I am somewhat shallow and have not studied many other cultures. I understand that in Christian folklore that the crossroads are intertwined with Satan and that he is more likely to, i don't want to say appear but i can't find the right word, there.

As I believe I said, I apologize if i didn't, I was raised in a somewhat Christian influenced house. My mom believes in the Christian god, however she doesn't go to church, or anything like that. She, and I to some extent, believe that if we do the right thing, and don't cause harm to others, we will go to heaven. She still does these spiritual festivals, and believes that magic can be used to help people.  

[TerminalAddiction]

Informative debate, thanks Tea, way to further the conversation! biggrin

I want to point out two things though about the crossroads and the goat representing Satan. If you sacrifice a goat (effigy of Satan) at a crossroad, it might be implying that you're killing Satan on the cross. Which would in affect defeat him. On top of that, there's tons of other ways that this could be done and meant, or maybe a way to appease Satan in order to keep him away.

However there is a story about Satan and crossroads biggrin . Robert Johnson said that he met the Devil at midnight on a crossroad and sold his soul to him to play the Guitar. Something which the movie O Brother, Where Art Thou picks up on.

TheDisreputableDog, do you follow a particular Egyptian God or am I wrong in how it "works"?  

[TeaDidikai]

Hell Yeah Seaking

I applied such things to it so that others may see the the common "inaccurate" term and understand what I was attempting to imply, If there are any other terms you would like me to use in order to distiguish between good and evil magic, please feel free to do so.

No- I just contest that there is such thing as good or evil magic.

I am curious- do you believe that hammers are good and evil? How about dinner forks?

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I was not raised in a Neo-Christian culture. My mom understands magic as both Good and Evil, depending on how it is used. The way she described this particular ceremony implied that it was evil. I actually have pictures and videos of Good ceremonies that my mom has actually thrown for a large community.

Were you raised in the US?

I may have infered inaccurately.

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And about the crossroads, I must admit that I am somewhat shallow and have not studied many other cultures. I understand that in Christian folklore that the crossroads are intertwined with Satan and that he is more likely to, i don't want to say appear but i can't find the right word, there.

May I ask where you came across this assertion? I do not recall Christendom having an opinion about roads and where they intersect.

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As I believe I said, I apologize if i didn't, I was raised in a somewhat Christian influenced house. My mom believes in the Christian god, however she doesn't go to church, or anything like that. She, and I to some extent, believe that if we do the right thing, and don't cause harm to others, we will go to heaven. She still does these spiritual festivals, and believes that magic can be used to help people.

Wait- were you raised in a Neo-Christian household or not? I'm completely confused at this point.

TerminalAddiction

Informative debate, thanks Tea, way to further the conversation! biggrin

No prob.

Quote:

I want to point out two things though about the crossroads and the goat representing Satan. If you sacrifice a goat (effigy of Satan) at a crossroad, it might be implying that you're killing Satan on the cross. Which would in affect defeat him. On top of that, there's tons of other ways that this could be done and meant, or maybe a way to appease Satan in order to keep him away.

However there is a story about Satan and crossroads biggrin . Robert Johnson said that he met the Devil at midnight on a crossroad and sold his soul to him to play the Guitar. Something which the movie O Brother, Where Art Thou picks up on.

Not Christian canon however. wink No more so than Inferno or Paradise Lost.

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TheDisreputableDog, do you follow a particular Egyptian God or am I wrong in how it "works"?

I think DD has a Pathways Thread.  

[TerminalAddiction]

TeaDidikai

Quote:

I want to point out two things though about the crossroads and the goat representing Satan. If you sacrifice a goat (effigy of Satan) at a crossroad, it might be implying that you're killing Satan on the cross. Which would in affect defeat him. On top of that, there's tons of other ways that this could be done and meant, or maybe a way to appease Satan in order to keep him away.

However there is a story about Satan and crossroads biggrin . Robert Johnson said that he met the Devil at midnight on a crossroad and sold his soul to him to play the Guitar. Something which the movie O Brother, Where Art Thou picks up on.

Not Christian canon however. wink No more so than Inferno or Paradise Lost.

Oh, of course not wink . I just meant in a broad sense of what it could represent.  

[TheDisreputableDog]

TeaDidikai

Do you take part in CUUPS?

Nope. There's never been a chapter close enough to participate in, and I haven't been to church regularly in a long time.

TeaDidikai

TerminalAddiction

TheDisreputableDog, do you follow a particular Egyptian God or am I wrong in how it "works"?

I think DD has a Pathways Thread.

I do indeed have a Pathways thread, so feel free to ask me any questions there. I don't think I've gotten to the Kemetic part of it yet though.

I don't have a "patron" or "matron" deity or anything like that. I am more drawn to certain Names than Others at this point in my life, and I hope I will get to know more of Them as I progress. If Netjer the One counts as a specific god, then yes; but I prefer to leave myself open to communication from many aspects of Netjer the Many if They wish to come calling, rather than dedicate myself wholly to one or two at this time.

If, eventually, I decide to join Kemetic Orthodoxy and undergo the Rite of Parent Divination, that will essentially tell me the handful of Names who have a particular interest in my life definitively within that religion. If I accept those results and go on to take Shemsu vows, said vows include the pledge to honor the Names revealed in the RPD first, but this does not preclude relationships with any other Names or gods from other systems.

These days, I have a particular interest in Nut, Geb, Shu, Wepwawet, Yinepu (=Anubis), Sekhmet, Bes, and Nebthet (=Nephthys). The Ones that have returned that interest are mostly the first five on that list.  

[Hell Yeah Seaking]

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No- I just contest that there is such thing as good or evil magic.

I am curious- do you believe that hammers are good and evil? How about dinner forks?

When i mean evil magic I mean magic that is used to harm another person, for whatever the reason. If someone placed a curse on Hitler I'd still consider it to be evil magic, even though Hitler was a horrible person too

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Were you raised in the US?

I may have infered inaccurately.

Yes I was raised in the U.S. but I have never had christian culture somewhat forced onto me, except for the occasional goddamit when someone stubbed their toe. Yes, it's true that when I was 7 I was baptised in a catholic church, but then I didn't even know what was going on

May I ask where you came across this assertion? I do not recall Christendom having an opinion about roads and where they intersect.

Apparently I have made a mistake and that it is from some movie, but from sites I have visited they say the crossroads are related to the devil. I really need to stop trusting online sites.

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Wait- were you raised in a Neo-Christian household or not? I'm completely confused at this point.

I really need to reread my posts. Ok, My mom believes in god, I learned to somewhat believe in god from her. However she isn't what I'd consider a Neo-Christian, as you have said before. She doesn't believe all magic is evil, she believes in it and actually takes part in some ceremonies, however she also believes in God. Do we go to church, no. Do we follow every teaching of the bible, no. In fact, i have not even read the bible so all my information has come from friends or websites; not really television because it gives magic either an evil reputation, or a glamorous one.

What can I say, I am new to paganism and haven't really had much interest in religion up till a few years ago. I joined this guild so that all these false assumptions i make are corrected, and thanks to you, many of them have been. (I say this somewhat likely because I see now to not put all my trust in one place.)  

[TeaDidikai]

Hell Yeah Seaking

When i mean evil magic I mean magic that is used to harm another person, for whatever the reason. If someone placed a curse on Hitler I'd still consider it to be evil magic, even though Hitler was a horrible person too

And what has brought you to this conclusion?

Why are you able to judge other people and cultures universally?

Further- is the magic actually evil? Or is it simply a tool and you would consider said person to be "evil"?

Do you view your moral code to be universal? Do you consider cultures that demand that members use magic to harm those who would destroy said culture to be evil people? Are they evil cultures?

How do you qualify evil itself? Anything that hurts? That which causes harm?

How do you define harm? Is someone harming a person who is addicted to crack when they deny them crack? I mean- withdrawl can be very painful- some withdrawls can kill people- should the person give the addict crack? But that would be allowing the individual to harm themselves. Does that make both people evil?

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Yes I was raised in the U.S. but I have never had christian culture somewhat forced onto me, except for the occasional goddamit when someone stubbed their toe. Yes, it's true that when I was 7 I was baptised in a catholic church, but then I didn't even know what was going on

Umm... the majority of the US population, being Christian does indeed have cultural aspects of the theology's ideology within even the secular culture.

Some are more subtle than others- but by the very idea that magic unto itself can be evil- I would say it has affected you more than you know.

Keep in mind- most pagan traditions had very distinct cursing and crossing craft within it. From the "Evil Eye" to the Norse Thief runes.

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Apparently I have made a mistake and that it is from some movie, but from sites I have visited they say the crossroads are related to the devil. I really need to stop trusting online sites.

Good research is important.

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I really need to reread my posts. Ok, My mom believes in god, I learned to somewhat believe in god from her. However she isn't what I'd consider a Neo-Christian, as you have said before. She doesn't believe all magic is evil,

Not all Christians do.

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she believes in it and actually takes part in some ceremonies, however she also believes in God.

Many pagans do as well. Which god does she believe in?

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Do we go to church, no. Do we follow every teaching of the bible, no. In fact, i have not even read the bible so all my information has come from friends or websites;

Mayhaps you should read it before making assertions about Christian symbology?

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What can I say, I am new to paganism and haven't really had much interest in religion up till a few years ago. I joined this guild so that all these false assumptions i make are corrected, and thanks to you, many of them have been. (I say this somewhat likely because I see now to not put all my trust in one place.)

Good lesson to learn.  

[TerminalAddiction]

TeaDidikai

Some are more subtle than others- but by the very idea that magic unto itself can be evil...most pagan traditions had very distinct cursing and crossing craft within it. From the "Evil Eye" to the Norse Thief runes.

I wanted to point out something here, not really related but a thing of interest. Since it seems that Hell Yeah Seaking has an interest in magic and christianity. I have a topic that she could research, which is Sin-eating.  

[TeaDidikai]

TerminalAddiction

TeaDidikai

Some are more subtle than others- but by the very idea that magic unto itself can be evil...most pagan traditions had very distinct cursing and crossing craft within it. From the "Evil Eye" to the Norse Thief runes.

I wanted to point out something here, not really related but a thing of interest. Since it seems that Hell Yeah Seaking has an interest in magic and christianity. I have a topic that she could research, which is Sin-eating.

Is that akin to spirit eating?  

[Sivirs]

TeaDidikai

TerminalAddiction

TeaDidikai

Some are more subtle than others- but by the very idea that magic unto itself can be evil...most pagan traditions had very distinct cursing and crossing craft within it. From the "Evil Eye" to the Norse Thief runes.

I wanted to point out something here, not really related but a thing of interest. Since it seems that Hell Yeah Seaking has an interest in magic and christianity. I have a topic that she could research, which is Sin-eating.

Is that akin to spirit eating?

If I remember right, sin eating became a practice in areas where you'd frequently not have a priest around to do Last Rites for the dying and dead, so fearing for the deceased's soul, people would bring in a person called a Sin Eater, who'd put bread and salt on the corpse to absorb all their sins, and would then eat the bread and salt. The dead would be considered cleansed as if they'd HAD their last rites and could go to Heaven, and the sin eater would take the burden of their sins. I also remember reading somewhere that sin eaters were treated as outcasts as a result of the nature of their work.

My knowledge is hazy though. I'm trying not to let the Heath Ledger movie about it cloud my brain and stick to what I remember reading about the practice. wink