This is a stupid question but I'm going to ask anyway thread

[Collowrath]

TeaDidikai

Collowrath

TeaDidikai

Also, I'd be interested in finding an ancient Egyptian Crystal pendulum myself.

Oh, something tells me it can be found on ebay...

Damn you eBay.

xp I was hoping I would be wrong. This does not bode well.  

[TeaDidikai]

Collowrath

TeaDidikai

Collowrath

TeaDidikai

Also, I'd be interested in finding an ancient Egyptian Crystal pendulum myself.

Oh, something tells me it can be found on ebay...

Damn you eBay.

xp I was hoping I would be wrong. This does not bode well.

To be fair, it is kinda pretty.  

[Collowrath]

TeaDidikai

Collowrath

TeaDidikai

Collowrath

TeaDidikai

Also, I'd be interested in finding an ancient Egyptian Crystal pendulum myself.

Oh, something tells me it can be found on ebay...

Damn you eBay.

xp I was hoping I would be wrong. This does not bode well.

To be fair, it is kinda pretty.

It is. Could find it cheaper from a local vendor though, I'm sure.  

[TeaDidikai]

Collowrath

It is. Could find it cheaper from a local vendor though, I'm sure.

Maybe. I know we don't have that quality around here for a better price. Maybe North or South- one of the larger cities might.  

[Gho the Girl]

TeaDidikai

Gho the Girl

Does anybody have an opinion on Goetia?

This is a rather vague question Sweets.

My opinion about the Infernal Keys usually rests on a number of terms found in Jewish mysticism that take hours to explain and perhaps lifetimes to understand.

Basically, most of the critters aren't the kind of infernals that are completely unreasonable. That said, most of them will eat your face if you ********.

This kind of magic and the beings it leads one to have contact with takes a very specific kind of person to work it.

Ah.

Honestly, I don't know why I'm so intrigued by the Goetia. It's sort of a fluffy thing really. However, it appears (at least to my very ignorant eyes) to be somewhat related to Christian mysticism. Although really I don't know what I'd be reaching out to them for.  

[guardian_rose]

TeaDidikai

guardian_rose

Mongolia and China boarder each other. Yet, they are two different societies.

And yet the Gael, who shared a common social structure, had organized boundaries and land rights under title- to say nothing of a common language and an overarching polticical structure couldn't possibly be considered a nation and thus can't be considered a society.

In short, I find your analogy flawed and your habit of randomly making up the meanings of words to be unappealing at best, insultingly racist at worst.

Nice definition. Too bad the definition given doesn't support what you are saying. Almost all the definitions given talk about cooperation. Archeological evidence does not support this completely. The Celts were known to war amongst themselves.

Quote:

Why else do we have Irish Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic? Different societies. Many, many similarities.

Actually, the reason we have Irish Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic is because Englishmen don't serve the courtesy of honoring cultural distinctions and thus they have misapplied the title of Gaelic to factions it shouldn't have been used to address.

P-Celts aren't Q-Celts, that's true enough, but stop misusing terms that in and of themselves are inaccurate to justify your position.[/qupte]
How so? Where did you find this?

Quote:

You have successfully defended an argument that druids as they were do not exist as they did then. Same goes for many kinds of leaders.
To a certain extent, as I mentioned before, druids may exist along a small village along the southern coast.

I'm still waiting for you to prove this. I want you to demonstrate that this small village is still being lead under a King and bound by the Brehon, with a social cast that acts as it's intellegencia and goes by the title of Druid, rather than having it's people attend university for degrees in medicine, law, education, history etc- and that this king has bestowed a title upon the individual(s) who preform this function.
According to National Geographic, it is a village led by a chieftain. A closed community. Its a fishing village.

Quote:

It's okay. I'll wait, though I would highly suggest you provide this before Cu gets here.

What does this have to do with anything? Is he an expert? Irish? Living in the British Isles or Ireland?
Still, it will just end in arguments until someone posts references.

Quote:

Wow. Something we can agree on.

So why the ******** have you repeatedly done this? Because we are not finding common ground here. Neither of us has given ANY evidence to support what we are saying, and until one of us does, this is just an argument that is beginning to get out of control. You are waiting for me to post where I got my information. This is understandable. Just have some patience. I am trying to locate a paper I wrote nine years ago. Why ,y paper? Because I kept with it a bibliography that contains the titles of all books and movies I referenced.

Quote:

First off, this was in no way a fluffy comment.

Of course it is. It relies on Historical Revisionism.
Please. By all means. Provide proof.

Quote:

Second, there are some saint's days that are celebrated almost identically to their gaelic counterparts.

There you go again with that whole "I don't care what the Gael have to say about it, I think I will force my Anglicization upon them" thing.
Prove that these Saints weren't Saints.

Quote:

News flash: cultures and societies change over time. Is our culture in the U.S. the same as it was 200 years ago? No? 100? How about 50? How about 20? The answer is no. Change happens.

Yep. So why are you trying to perpetuate the notion that it hasn't?

Quote:

It was a lifestyle and a title.

Prove it.

Quote:

It comes from the Tain, which, through a story shows splits in the society: warriors and druids.

I'll wait for you to prove that the whole of the Gael were divided this way.
I am working on that. Are you working on proving I am wrong, or shall this continue to be he said she said?

Quote:

The second is from the Romans, who noted that the Gael's religious leaders, druids, were never in combat.

And yet, we know that the title of Druid was assigned to great warriors.
Where did you find this at? I have never heard of a warrior being called a druid.

Quote:

So, it's put up or shut up time.
Prove the following claims you have made or recant them and dedicate yourself to better research, less revisionism and recovering from fluff:

1) That "Celtic Traditions" = Druids.

Quote:

2) That these Druids have survived in "a small fairly inaccessable [sic] part in southern Ireland, near the coast. "

Working on that. Again, I have to track down references I kept nine years ago.

Quote:

3) That the Gael do not count "with their varying beliefs [as] a society."

Man has warred over his beliefs from the time he learned to walk upright.

Quote:

4) That "the inclusion of some of the Celtic pantheon [within Christendom] is a way in which the old tradition survives today"

St. Brigit. In the Celtic Pantheon, Brigid. If I recall correctly, she was a goddess of healing and fertility.

Quote:

5) That plainly phrased, there are members of the gods of the Gael that have been appropriated as Saints.

See above. Waiting for proof still? Good. Patience. You will get it as soon as I do.

Quote:

6) That such an action would even imply that "isn't it in all likelihood that druidism" exists today.

Keep an open mind. Sure, its speculative. Thats half the fun. The question posted wasn't an "Isn't it 100% fact".

Quote:

7) Archeological Evidence proving each tribe has it's differences suddenly means that the Gael aren't a society.

There really isn't a whole lot that ties the various tribes together, other than pantheons and similarities in dialect.

Quote:

8 ) That being a Druid "was a lifestyle and a title".

We'll come back to this with the whole more proof thing.

Quote:

9) That "[T]he Tain,... shows splits in the society: warriors and druids".

I am assuming that you have read The Tain, yes? There are many examples of splits in social structure. Actual quotes to come as soon as I can locate my book of Celtic mythologies.

Quote:

10) That Roman documentation is anything more than propaganda of the age.

Did I ever say it was a complete, 100% honest reference? We use what we have. Sure, there are parts of the Roman writings that are obviously questionable.

Quote:

I'll wait for these ten proofs, and I'll shoot a line to Cu.

Again, what makes Cu an expert? Can he prove or disprove something you can't?
While we wait, I have a question for you Tea. You mentioned somewhere that you attended Evergreen State College, yes? The one in Puget Sound? If so, I can give you the location of the mythical National Geographic video, assuming that the Timberland Regional Library hasn't phased it out. It is a VHS, after all.
Before you ask, no. I can't go there myself. I live in interior Alaska now, and thats a bit out of my way to get the vid title. My local library doesn't have the greatest resources at its disposal.  

[Lance Kibagari]

Guardian_Rose

What does this have to do with anything? Is he an expert? Irish? Living in the British Isles or Ireland?
Still, it will just end in arguments until someone posts references.

He is not only Irish, but of the Gael.
I would hope that his own experience with his own culture could be seen as a decent enough reference. But then, I'm very sure he's got valid sources to back his claims up regardless.  

[guardian_rose]

Lance Kisgyr

Guardian_Rose

What does this have to do with anything? Is he an expert? Irish? Living in the British Isles or Ireland?
Still, it will just end in arguments until someone posts references.

He is not only Irish, but of the Gael.
I would hope that his own experience with his own culture could be seen as a decent enough reference. But then, I'm very sure he's got valid sources to back his claims up regardless.

So he does live in Ireland, then?
Its easy for one to be Irish and not live in Ireland, after all.
Either way, he should have some good book titles then. wink  

[CuAnnan]

guardian_rose

According to National Geographic, it is a village led by a chieftain. A closed community. Its a fishing village.

I live in Ireland.
There is no such village.
There was no such Nat Geo article.
You are lieing.

guardian_rose

Is he an expert?

Yes.

guardian_rose

Irish?

Yes.

guardian_rose

Living in the British Isles or Ireland?

Yes.

guardian_rose

Still, it will just end in arguments until someone posts references.

The Penal Laws and the Catholicisation of Ireland.
Argument over.
A winner is me.

guardian_rose

Because we are not finding common ground here. Neither of us has given ANY evidence to support what we are saying, and until one of us does, this is just an argument that is beginning to get out of control. You are waiting for me to post where I got my information. This is understandable. Just have some patience. I am trying to locate a paper I wrote nine years ago. Why ,y paper? Because I kept with it a bibliography that contains the titles of all books and movies I referenced.

Triumph of the Moon, Stations of the Sun.
Both by Ronald Hutton.
Both prove that you're full of s**t.

guardian_rose

It comes from the Tain, which, through a story shows splits in the society: warriors and druids.

That's an outright lie.
The Tain shows no such thing.

guardian_rose

Where did you find this at? I have never heard of a warrior being called a druid.

That would be because you have never studied the Gael.
Try the Book of Invasions, near the start, where it talks about Amergin White Knee.

guardian_rose

Working on that. Again, I have to track down references I kept nine years ago.

Concede the point.
Admit that you were lying.

guardian_rose

Man has warred over his beliefs from the time he learned to walk upright.

Shut up.
Man has done no such thing.
They've warred over land, power, trading rights and gold.

guardian_rose

St. Brigit. In the Celtic Pantheon, Brigid. If I recall correctly, she was a goddess of healing and fertility.

Nope.
St Brigid != Brid

guardian_rose

Keep an open mind. Sure, its speculative. Thats half the fun. The question posted wasn't an "Isn't it 100% fact".

Allow me to state this coldly and calmly, because I haven't lost my temper yet. You raping my culture. You raping my people's history. You ret-conning history to suit your delusions of self-importance.
These things are not fun.
They are morally repugnant.

guardian_rose

There really isn't a whole lot that ties the various tribes together, other than pantheons and similarities in dialect.

Try again.
Ireland had Riogh and ard-Riogh.
You lose.

guardian_rose

We'll come back to this with the whole more proof thing.

Actually, you should just concede now.
The reason you should just concede now is that if I am forced to dig through the Annals for this, I will.
And, having proven you a liar, I will Name you such.
Do you understand what I am saying?
Do you get what I am threatening you with?

guardian_rose

I am assuming that you have read The Tain, yes?

In Irish. Repeatedly. Now shut up.
The Tain does not support your position.

guardian_rose

Actual quotes to come as soon as I can locate my book of Celtic mythologies.

The Tain is a book. It would not be contained within another book. Unless the book is enormous.

guardian_rose

Again, what makes Cu an expert?

18 years of public education on the matter followed by a good six years personal education.
Fluency in Irish.
Familiarity with the Annals.
Scholastic study of the culture of the Gael.
Do I need to continue here?

guardian_rose

Can he prove or disprove something you can't?

Many things.
As she can I.  

[TeaDidikai]

Gho the Girl

Ah.

Honestly, I don't know why I'm so intrigued by the Goetia. It's sort of a fluffy thing really. However, it appears (at least to my very ignorant eyes) to be somewhat related to Christian mysticism. Although really I don't know what I'd be reaching out to them for.

The Lesser Keys are a small portion of Christian Mysticism, speaking as someone who knows a bit about you and the path you are walking, I think I would recommend more research into Folk Catholicism over The Lesser Keys.  

[guardian_rose]

CuAnnan

guardian_rose

According to National Geographic, it is a village led by a chieftain. A closed community. Its a fishing village.

I live in Ireland.
There is no such village.
There was no such Nat Geo article.
You are lieing.

I never claimed it was an article. I would think that you have read all the posts up to this point.

CuAnnan

guardian_rose

Is he an expert?

Yes.

guardian_rose

Irish?

Yes.

guardian_rose

Living in the British Isles or Ireland?

Yes.

CuAnnan

Great. Question answered. No problems here.

guardian_rose

Still, it will just end in arguments until someone posts references.

The Penal Laws and the Catholicisation of Ireland.
Argument over.
A winner is me.

Never even heard of this. Not that that is too suprising. Some things just don't come up in research right away.

CuAnnan

guardian_rose

Because we are not finding common ground here. Neither of us has given ANY evidence to support what we are saying, and until one of us does, this is just an argument that is beginning to get out of control. You are waiting for me to post where I got my information. This is understandable. Just have some patience. I am trying to locate a paper I wrote nine years ago. Why my paper? Because I kept with it a bibliography that contains the titles of all books and movies I referenced.

Triumph of the Moon, Stations of the Sun.
Both by Ronald Hutton.
Both prove that you're full of s**t.

Both are books I have never even heard of. Now that I know something new to look for, I look forward to reading them. No need to be an a**.

CuAnnan

guardian_rose

It comes from the Tain, which, through a story shows splits in the society: warriors and druids.

That's an outright lie.
The Tain shows no such thing.

I'm sure that in Ireland there is a more complete version of The Tain than what has been made available state side. The variation I read was a recanting of the life and triumphs of Cu Cuhulain.

CuAnnan

guardian_rose

Where did you find this at? I have never heard of a warrior being called a druid.

That would be because you have never studied the Gael.
Try the Book of Invasions, near the start, where it talks about Amergin White Knee.

guardian_rose

Working on that. Again, I have to track down references I kept nine years ago.

Concede the point.
Admit that you were lying.

I refuse to do that right now. Until I find that blasted video and rewatch the damned thing, I shall concede no point. Nor am I lying.

CuAnnan

guardian_rose

Man has warred over his beliefs from the time he learned to walk upright.

Shut up.
Man has done no such thing.
They've warred over land, power, trading rights and gold.

What is a belief? As listed by dictionary.com:

1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3. confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.

So there has never been any fighting inside Ireland over religious beliefs? Ignoring christian invasion, mind you. Nor over land?

CuAnnan

guardian_rose

St. Brigit. In the Celtic Pantheon, Brigid. If I recall correctly, she was a goddess of healing and fertility.

Nope.
St Brigid != Brid

guardian_rose

Keep an open mind. Sure, its speculative. Thats half the fun. The question posted wasn't an "Isn't it 100% fact".

Allow me to state this coldly and calmly, because I haven't lost my temper yet. You raping my culture. You raping my people's history. You ret-conning history to suit your delusions of self-importance.
These things are not fun.
They are morally repugnant.

Please, by all means. Lose your temper. What are you gonna do about it? Flame me some more? I am in no way trying to ret-con history. Nearly stating fact as they have been represented to us across the sea. One last thing. How can I rape a culture, that, by Tea's definitions, is dead? The worst you could accuse me of, is grave digging.

CuAnnan

guardian_rose

There really isn't a whole lot that ties the various tribes together, other than pantheons and similarities in dialect.

Try again.
Ireland had Riogh and ard-Riogh.
You lose.

What about outside Ireland. More specifically, during the time frames in discussion.

CuAnnan

guardian_rose

We'll come back to this with the whole more proof thing.

Actually, you should just concede now.
The reason you should just concede now is that if I am forced to dig through the Annals for this, I will.
And, having proven you a liar, I will Name you such.
Do you understand what I am saying?
Do you get what I am threatening you with?

Oh, I get your threat. You assume too much in believing that it scares me. It doesn't. Do your worst.

CuAnnan

guardian_rose

I am assuming that you have read The Tain, yes?

In Irish. Repeatedly. Now shut up.
The Tain does not support your position.

This was pointed at Tea. I am sure you have.

guardian_rose

Actual quotes to come as soon as I can locate my book of Celtic mythologies.

The Tain is a book. It would not be contained within another book. Unless the book is enormous. I am sure it is.

CuAnnan

guardian_rose

Again, what makes Cu an expert?

18 years of public education on the matter followed by a good six years personal education.
Fluency in Irish.
Familiarity with the Annals.
Scholastic study of the culture of the Gael.
Do I need to continue here?

If you want to. I have as much chance at stopping you as you do of me.

guardian_rose

Can he prove or disprove something you can't?

Many things.
As she can I.
Good. I have no problem looking into your sources.  

[IH_Zero]

I wonder why you keep specifying "Living in Ireland or the British Isles", and sources available stateside not in the original tongue. Someone born and raised in the US is no more Irish than they are Spanish, English, German, whatever. They'd be of Irish descent, if they come from a bloodline that can be traced back to Ireland, but not Irish. However, if they were born, and raised in Ireland, then moved elsewhere, they'd still be Irish by birth.

And translations are iffy by their very nature. No matter what language you are translating from, concepts and meanings will be lost. It's not an exact science. I'm going to take the word of someone who can read and understand the source text in its original language, before I'll take a translated source. That isn't to say all of them are terrible, but it's always best to go to the source.

Edited because apparently I can't complete a thought the first go round.  

[CuAnnan]

guardian_rose

I never claimed it was an article. I would think that you have read all the posts up to this point.

Whether it was a newspaper or documentary article, it was an article.
Never try to beat me semantically. I will hand you your a** on a platter.0

guardian_rose

Never even heard of this. Not that that is too suprising. Some things just don't come up in research right away.

Then you have done no research.
They are the two most important turning points in Irish cultural history.

guardian_rose

Both are books I have never even heard of. Now that I know something new to look for, I look forward to reading them. No need to be an a**.

You come in here being all racist on my culture and you tell me there's no need to be an a**?

guardian_rose

I'm sure that in Ireland there is a more complete version of The Tain than what has been made available state side. The variation I read was a recanting of the life and triumphs of Cu Cuhulain.

ISBN number please.

guardian_rose

I refuse to do that right now. Until I find that blasted video and rewatch the damned thing, I shall concede no point. Nor am I lying.

My patience has run out.
Withdraw your argument. You have no evidence and all of the evidence calls you a liar.

guardian_rose

So there has never been any fighting inside Ireland over religious beliefs? Ignoring christian invasion, mind you. Nor over land?

I very much recommend you take my advice on this. Never bring up the North.
I will punk you thoroughly and publicly on this.
No. The troubles up the north were not about religion. They were about civil rights.
No. They were not about land. They were about civil rights.
It's time for you to return to whatever part of the Americas it is you come from and never comment on Irish culture again.

guardian_rose

Please, by all means. Lose your temper. What are you gonna do about it?

Curse you.
Curse you down to the third generation.
Curse your ancestors.
.... do I need to continue with this or do you get the idea here.

guardian_rose

Flame me some more?

I haven't flamed you, yet.

guardian_rose

Nearly stating fact as they have been represented to us across the sea.

Calling lies fact doesn't change the matter.

guardian_rose

One last thing. How can I rape a culture, that, by Tea's definitions, is dead? The worst you could accuse me of, is grave digging.

No. It's not.
The druids do not my culture make.

guardian_rose

What about outside Ireland. More specifically, during the time frames in discussion.

... re-read.

guardian_rose

Oh, I get your threat. You assume too much in believing that it scares me. It doesn't. Do your worst.

Faghfair ceol bás ionat.
Cailfear d'ainm 's'd'anam.

guardian_rose

This was pointed at Tea. I am sure you have.

The Tain does not support your position.

guardian_rose

If you want to. I have as much chance at stopping you as you do of me.

No. See, I can report you for racism. Which is a violation of the ToS.
That will stop you.

guardian_rose

Good. I have no problem looking into your sources.

celt.ucc.ie  

[guardian_rose]

Reporting me for ToS will never float and you know it. I have not once said anything out of hate or spite.

I wasn't refering to the north. I was refering to the nine year war.
Curse me all you want it shall do you no good.
And those laws, please, provide a link that predates the 1600s. Those laws were for taking power from the Catholic Church.

Oh, on one last thing... I get kicked from Gaia, what loss is it really? No skin off my back. wink

I think the real problem here isn't the argument. Its that neither you nor Tea are used to being cross questioned.
If I turn out to be wrong, I will gladly admit where I was wrong, and what I was wrong about.

And so, you do know, you won't report me just for those I told you so's if I am wrong. My public library opens in an hour and a half.  

[CuAnnan]

guardian_rose

Reporting me for ToS will never float and you know it. I have not once said anything out of hate or spite.

You confuse racism with hate?

guardian_rose

I wasn't refering to the north. I was refering to the nine year war.

Which had what, exactly, to do with religion?

guardian_rose

And those laws, please, provide a link that predates the 1600s. Those laws were for taking power from the Catholic Church.

No. They weren't. They were about a great many things.
They were about making the Irish more managable by making us them.
They were about destroying the Irish identity to make us easier to control, as they had done trhoughout the Empire.