Worst Things You Can Ever Say As A Pagan

[Recursive Paradox]

Aino Ailill

Recursive Paradox

Aino Ailill

Violet Song jat Shariff

Celeblin Galadeneryn

The phrase "curb stomp" comes to mind.

I apologise for the horribly violent gesture but.... you just don't ******** disrespect your apparently disabled father that way. ******** walk him to church and shut your whining mouth up. This, as you can see, pushes my buttons to the extreme.

No I agree; that image fairly sums up the amount of rage I felt when I read that.

...why? According to the information presented, the mother is willing and able to walk with the father. If going into a church so offends the person, and if there are other options available that do not require the assistance of that person, than why ought that person be obligated to offer assistance?

Because people with disabilities are often shunted aside for a variety of reasons over and over (usually due to ableism), so even when the reasons may be valid, they still hurt like a b***h and add to that awfulness that PWD deal with every day.

The son is able bodied and his privilege allows him to not go with someone to places. He's able to leave and not feel that pain. His father has no choice. It's a complete privileged person empathy fail.

So your issue is with how the child declined the request, not with the request being declined?

To an extent. The way it was declined was certainly problematic in an ableism standpoint.

But the fact that she has set this absolute in place, built on currently abled privilege without need or want for compromise at all is an even bigger problem.

PWD (people with disabilities) often have issues of trust because of how often we're tossed aside. It's a lot easier to have people around that we trust and care for because it helps us feel safer. This is applicable in a bunch of areas. It applies to me being trans. I often ask my girl friends to accompany me to the bathroom so I feel safe. If they refused, they'd be enacting their cis privilege, centering their laziness or whatever over my actual safety of life and limb, likely through not really experiencing such danger from a bathroom.

None of this is to say that there aren't valid reasons to not accompany me. But if one of them announced her intention to never accompany me to the women's room ever, it would intensely cissexist and cis privileged of her.

That daughter really should make some sort of compromise, to show that her father still has her support for his disability, just sometimes her needs need to be met too. She should have said, "I can't make it over there today, dad, but I can walk you over next week, okay? And I'll help you get over the steps if you need it. *hugs*"

A little bit of empathy and compromise isn't hard. She could have also did what Cu suggested, walk him to and from and get something nice at cafe or something while she waits. Then she's aiding her father and his disability but allowing for her need to avoid a Christian enclave. Which I understand can be highly uncomfortable for many pagans, it certainly was for me. Not just because I'm an Oathbreaker against YHVH but because the community often questions my decisions regarding religion in inappropriate and prying ways.

But still, I went to church for three years to spend time with my family (because I saw them so rarely) despite having an entirely different system of belief and philosophy than Christianity. It's not hard to make compromises when someone has a disability or other marginalized trait  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

Aino Ailill

The request is not to be walked to and from, but to be accompanied throughout the entire venture because e needs someone to walk with e and sit with e despite that, presumably, there are people already willing and able to do this.

And I'm still not seeing what is so terrible about it. He wishes for her company above the others.
Had she respectfully declined and tried to perhaps even bargain with him (i.e., "Sure I can walk you but I think I could better use the time taking care of a few things rather than sitting in the church. Would that work out well for you?" or even suggest she can take him to a different church where she might not feel as uncomfortable ) I don't think I'd feel such disgust. As it's has been pointed out, she was rude, condescending, and very disrespectful instead to a simple request. And it still doesn't amount to this huge guilt trip that she's supposedly making it out to be.

Aino Ailill

Really? I get the feeling 'my spiritual and emotional wants and needs are important. I am not going to sacrifice myself by causing myself undue discomfort when your physical needs (which is what has been presented as the cause the request) are being met by others. Your emotional desire to want me, specifically, there is not due cause for me to place myself in a position of discomfort.'

Really? What kind of "sacrifices", spiritually, would she really be making to sit in a church for an hour on a Sunday? And what discomfort? Yes there will be things said that don't 100% mesh with her spiritual views, but she doesn't have to agree with them full-stock. Again, I find that this leads back to the thinking among some Pagans that going into a church somehow makes them less Pagany.

Aino Ailill

Are you certain of this?

Due to past interactions with this person, yes, I am fairly certain.

Aino Ailill

Yeah, that's weird. neutral

LOL yea to say the least xd

Aino Ailill

I don't think that is a conclusion that can be drawn from what little information is present.

I would say at least serious injury. Winter can be hard on arthritis. If he has trouble standing up or going up or down stairs and happens to fall...that can really mess someone up.

Aino Ailill

Then why was e not content with the offer of the child to walk with the father but not to enter the church? And why would one's emotional desires override another's emotional aversions?

For sitting with him through service I attribute it to the second friend he usually sits with being gone and he still wants the company of two people that he is familiar with and trusts.

I really don't see it as an emotional aversion tbh. More of a faulty spiritual aversion due to her not understanding that Christianity and Paganism don't have to be like oil and water - that she *can* sit in a church and not actively participate and it won't make her less of a Pagan. It wasn't "Oh going to church makes me angry/sad/frustrated/bored/etc..." it was "It is not my belief."

Aino Ailill

Again, not a conclusion that can be drawn from the limited information.

I know. Which is why I said "perhaps." wink .
I do not mean this in a snide, condescending manner, but have you ever had to take care of someone who was quite ill like the father in my quote was? I mean, not be their primary care-taker of course, but sort of be their hands and feet, assisting them in some of the smaller day-to-day things? I have. And that is why I find her attitude towards her father totally disgusting. I understand how, when someone is that ill, that they trust family and a few close friends more than they would someone that they don't have as much contact with.

Aino Ailill

There are others that are willing and able to accompany the father.

I believe Poe addressed a possible reason why the father doesn't care to reach out to all of the people his daughter is pointing him to:

Recursive Paradox

PWD (people with disabilities) often have issues of trust because of how often we're tossed aside. It's a lot easier to have people around that we trust and care for because it helps us feel safer.

It may not be that he simply doesn't want to, but rather doesn't feel that he can while maintaining an acceptable level of safety and trust.

Celeblin Galadeneryn

First, she put on her head phones to shut her annoying father up. I personally would have ripped them off her head, because that's not the way you end a conversation with someone in a position of respect over you. You do him the dignity of talking it through with him and not cutting him off. Also, the whole thing was horribly patronising, especially the ending. Did she ask him why he wants her specifically to take him? No, because he's just an annoyance to her. It's just all around rude.

This too. I mean, if I had acted that way to my parents when I would younger I would've been beaten within an inch of my life. One rarely talks like that to someone older than them (extreme circumstances, of course)- especially not his/her parents.  

[Fiddlers Green]

Just to clarify, would expecting her to accompany him to church not be exerting his Christian Privilege?  

[Shearaha]

Quote:

Quote:

Aino Ailill Wrote:
Really? I get the feeling 'my spiritual and emotional wants and needs are important. I am not going to sacrifice myself by causing myself undue discomfort when your physical needs (which is what has been presented as the cause the request) are being met by others. Your emotional desire to want me, specifically, there is not due cause for me to place myself in a position of discomfort.'

Really? What kind of "sacrifices", spiritually, would she really be making to sit in a church for an hour on a Sunday? And what discomfort? Yes there will be things said that don't 100% mesh with her spiritual views, but she doesn't have to agree with them full-stock. Again, I find that this leads back to the thinking among some Pagans that going into a church somehow makes them less Pagany.

In a way I think that this depends on the church. I hate going to my mothers church, primarily because of the pastor there. His sermons are little more then defamation of anything other then his brand of Christianity. It is very difficult to sit there next to my mother. She's really the only thing that keeps me from getting up and walking out. I only go when I visit her overnight and even then I try to leave before she's ready to go to church.
I have no problem attending at the church my grandmother attended, Silent Quaker churches still feel welcoming. If she were still with us I'd have no problem escorting her to and from when I was visiting.  

[Recursive Paradox]

Celeblin Galadeneryn

I additionally took issue with a few things.

First, she put on her head phones to shut her annoying father up. I personally would have ripped them off her head, because that's not the way you end a conversation with someone in a position of respect over you. You do him the dignity of talking it through with him and not cutting him off. Also, the whole thing was horribly patronising, especially the ending. Did she ask him why he wants her specifically to take him? No, because he's just an annoyance to her. It's just all around rude.

It was a fairly disgusting way to treat another human being.

Fiddlers Green

Just to clarify, would expecting her to accompany him to church not be exerting his Christian Privilege?

It depends. Does he make consistent attempts to convert her? Does going to church interfere directly with her religion? The effects of his actions would determine whether or not he's evoking religion privilege or not.  

[Underworld Priestess]

I don't have one, I think all the good ones were taken but it was hilarious.  

[Gho the Girl]

Recursive Paradox

Fiddlers Green

Just to clarify, would expecting her to accompany him to church not be exerting his Christian Privilege?

It depends. Does he make consistent attempts to convert her? Does going to church interfere directly with her religion? The effects of his actions would determine whether or not he's evoking religion privilege or not.

Agreed. If a Jewish friend of mine needed a ride to church, and wanted me with them to support them, as long as they don't ask me to participate unnecessarily or limit their requests to their physical needs (transportation, comfort, etc) and some emotional ones (loneliness, fear) they aren't pressuring their religion on me, and I'm only there for them, not their faith.  

[Gho the Girl]

celticfireguardian

I don't have one, I think all the good ones were taken but it was hilarious.

I don't get it? confused  

[CuAnnan]

Gho the Girl

celticfireguardian

I don't have one, I think all the good ones were taken but it was hilarious.

I don't get it? confused

I think she's saying all of the good funny things have been taken.  

[Underworld Priestess]

CuAnnan

Gho the Girl

celticfireguardian

I don't have one, I think all the good ones were taken but it was hilarious.

I don't get it? confused

I think she's saying all of the good funny things have been taken.

Yes, that was what I was saying.  

[too2sweet]

From a friend request I got on my facebook stressed

Quote:

I'm a Metaphysical Coordinator or Witch.....

 

[TeaDidikai]

too2sweet

From a friend request I got on my facebook stressed

Quote:

I'm a Metaphysical Coordinator or Witch.....

I saw one where the person had a crappy music obsession and called themselves a Metaphysical Conductor. ~shrugs~  

[Fiddlers Green]

Gho the Girl

Recursive Paradox

Fiddlers Green

Just to clarify, would expecting her to accompany him to church not be exerting his Christian Privilege?

It depends. Does he make consistent attempts to convert her? Does going to church interfere directly with her religion? The effects of his actions would determine whether or not he's evoking religion privilege or not.

Agreed. If a Jewish friend of mine needed a ride to church, and wanted me with them to support them, as long as they don't ask me to participate unnecessarily or limit their requests to their physical needs (transportation, comfort, etc) and some emotional ones (loneliness, fear) they aren't pressuring their religion on me, and I'm only there for them, not their faith.

So, it's okay to expect my homosexual friends to come with me to the local Mormon Church?
This whole mess seems to assume a bit too much for my tastes.
Personally, if they don't share a religion, barring parental authority, I'm not seeing why someone is not within their rights to not go.
Family time should be family time, if Family time = Church time, it seems like religious privilege to me. The assumption that any family member aught feel obligated to assist with this seems concordant with expecting any family member to assist in any other majority activity on the assumption that it is the fitting and normal thing to to. That the father might not even consider that he is asking his offspring to accompany him to a place she finds offensive smacks of privilege as I understand it as well.

Again, this lacks enough information for me to really call on, however, it does bring to my mind the question as to whether Parental privilege is ever an issue.